From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Apr  1 09:22:20 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:22:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240805c417e3bdd248@[192.168.1.101]>

At 3:51 PM -0700 3/31/08, Susan Shemin wrote:
>Just as this question came up here, I was again researching it on 
>the internet, and very clearly saw that the crux of the problem is 
>that Javascript is client side and PHP server side, meaning the 2 
>don't mix unless in Ajax.

They mix Okay, but don't communicate well without effort.

The reason for this is simple -- just before a web page is delivered 
to a users browser all of php's work is done and as the web page 
loads in the browser, then javascript's work starts.

Communication between the two languages is a question of timing.

Ajax is simply javascript sending data (via POST or GET) to a slave 
php script, which in turn provides data back to the web page without 
the need for a refresh.

The communication is exactly the same as if you were using a form 
minus the refresh.

The problem, of course, is that javascript has security issues and 
some users would rather have a refresh than risk security.

Javascript and php can play well together as this demonstrates:

http://webbytedd.com/b/timed-php/

But, it's not simple.  :-)

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From sol2ray at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 09:53:58 2008
From: sol2ray at gmail.com (Sol Toure)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:53:58 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Did you know that each integer in a PHP array takes 68
	bytes of storage?
Message-ID: <4a67dc390804010653i7a4f3b40vdb2c0eae56855fd4@mail.gmail.com>

Good to know:
http://pankaj-k.net/weblog/2008/03/did_you_know_that_each_integer.html
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From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 10:18:59 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:18:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <p06240805c417e3bdd248@192.168.1.101>
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<p06240805c417e3bdd248@192.168.1.101>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804010718l14e87c0dudf9788a5d5a06abc@mail.gmail.com>

I can think of a half a dozen solutions for sending data from
javascript back to the server, below are three.

1) Have javscript set a cookie:
<script>
var clienttime = ... // long caluculation
setCookie('ct',clienttime,365);
</script>

2) Have javascript send the data as a get variable (you could also
auto submit a form if you want POST)
<script>
var clienttime = ... // long caluculation
window.location = "myscript.php?ct=" + clienttime;
</script>

3) Ajax assuming jQuery
<script>
var clienttime = ... // long caluculation
$.get('myscript.php',{ct:clienttime},function (data) {
  alert("script said: " + data);
});
</script>

The cookie method will make the data available to the Server on the
next page view.
The second method will auto redirect and be really sloppy, but it is
the easiest to understand conceptually.
The Ajax method is the best, but will be a real pain in the ass to
implement without a javascript library.

Even though the second method is the worst from a UI perspective, I'd
recommend you implement it first so you better understand the problem.

-John Campbell


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Apr  1 10:37:11 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:37:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804010718l14e87c0dudf9788a5d5a06abc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<p06240805c417e3bdd248@192.168.1.101>
	<8f0676b40804010718l14e87c0dudf9788a5d5a06abc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080dc417f78775cd@[192.168.1.101]>

At 10:18 AM -0400 4/1/08, John Campbell wrote:
>
>The Ajax method is the best, but will be a real pain in the ass to
>implement without a javascript library.

Why so?

I do Ajax all the time with a simple 50 line javascript routine. No 
large libraries.

Check this:

http://www.webbytedd.com/b/ajax/

It has one 50 line javascript routine, one 75 line slave php script, 
and a very simple html.

Ajax can be very simple.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From david at davidmintz.org  Tue Apr  1 10:53:02 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:53:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <p0624080dc417f78775cd@192.168.1.101>
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<p06240805c417e3bdd248@192.168.1.101>
	<8f0676b40804010718l14e87c0dudf9788a5d5a06abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624080dc417f78775cd@192.168.1.101>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804010753w4ad152aeq8a3e0855ff330875@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 10:37 AM, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:

> Ajax can be very simple.
>
>
No doubt but that PHP can be a prolific author of Javascript without things
becoming overly complicated. Lately I have been using a home-grown
PHP/Javscript helper for Ajax contexts. It emits a content-type:
application/javascript header upon instantiation and has some convenience
methods that echo javascript snippets for the browser to execute.  I can say
$js->message('Foo!") and the element whose id is 'message' is updated to say
Foo!

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From ioplex at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 11:17:16 2008
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:17:16 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Did you know that each integer in a PHP array takes
	68 bytes of storage?
In-Reply-To: <4a67dc390804010653i7a4f3b40vdb2c0eae56855fd4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4a67dc390804010653i7a4f3b40vdb2c0eae56855fd4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78c6bd860804010817s380394e8saff8d24c0bc3835e@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/1/08, Sol Toure <sol2ray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Good to know:
> http://pankaj-k.net/weblog/2008/03/did_you_know_that_each_integer.html

I don't understand. Is this supposed to indicate that PHP is somehow
inefficient at storing array elements?

"a single integer value stored within an PHP array uses 68 bytes: 16
bytes for value structure (zval), 36 bytes for hash bucket, and 2*8 =
16 bytes for memory allocation headers."

That sounds fairly reasonable to me.

Note that each element does not incur a hash bucket. The bucket holds
a list. The blogger just wasn't smart enough to insert enough elements
to see elements hash to the same bucket.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
PHP Active Directory SPNEGO SSO
http://www.ioplex.com/


From consult at covenantedesign.com  Tue Apr  1 11:26:46 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 11:26:46 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Did you know that each integer in a PHP array takes
	68 bytes of storage?
In-Reply-To: <78c6bd860804010817s380394e8saff8d24c0bc3835e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4a67dc390804010653i7a4f3b40vdb2c0eae56855fd4@mail.gmail.com>
	<78c6bd860804010817s380394e8saff8d24c0bc3835e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F25436.8030607@covenantedesign.com>

You're not the only one that isn't following the inference/point here.

What would be an example of a real-life application of array usage that 
would be rendered faulty/unstable due to this limitation?

Michael B Allen wrote:
> On 4/1/08, Sol Toure <sol2ray at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Good to know:
>> http://pankaj-k.net/weblog/2008/03/did_you_know_that_each_integer.html
>>     
>
> I don't understand. Is this supposed to indicate that PHP is somehow
> inefficient at storing array elements?
>
> "a single integer value stored within an PHP array uses 68 bytes: 16
> bytes for value structure (zval), 36 bytes for hash bucket, and 2*8 =
> 16 bytes for memory allocation headers."
>
> That sounds fairly reasonable to me.
>
> Note that each element does not incur a hash bucket. The bucket holds
> a list. The blogger just wasn't smart enough to insert enough elements
> to see elements hash to the same bucket.
>
> Mike
>
>   




From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 11:48:45 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:48:45 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <p0624080dc417f78775cd@192.168.1.101>
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<p06240805c417e3bdd248@192.168.1.101>
	<8f0676b40804010718l14e87c0dudf9788a5d5a06abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624080dc417f78775cd@192.168.1.101>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804010848k7fabe3c3qb942afc9cc028ab@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 10:37 AM, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
> At 10:18 AM -0400 4/1/08, John Campbell wrote:
>  >
>  >The Ajax method is the best, but will be a real pain in the ass to
>  >implement without a javascript library.
>
>  Why so?

Wasn't it you who suggested an image hack to avoid the complexity of XML-HTTP?

>  I do Ajax all the time with a simple 50 line javascript routine. No
>  large libraries.
>  Check this:
>
>  http://www.webbytedd.com/b/ajax/
>
>  It has one 50 line javascript routine, one 75 line slave php script,
>  and a very simple html.
>

Your code is fine for trivial example pages, but would be a disaster
for a production application.
1) The use of the global 'http' is sloppy and limiting.
2) You need to highlight the selected menu after the callback
completes.  Your coding style will quickly become a mess of
document.getElementByIds().
3) You use browser detection... you should use object detection.  A
try/catch block is a good idea in your case.
4) Your implementation breaks the back button.
5) Clicking the currently selected navigation element causes
unnecessary requests.

With a library, I can fix all of these issues and cut the amount of
code down from 50 lines to 10 lines.  If you were to fix these issues
yourself, your code would grow to more than 250 lines.

-John C.


From ben at projectskyline.com  Tue Apr  1 12:37:53 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 12:37:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Did you know that each integer in a PHP array takes
	68 bytes of storage?
In-Reply-To: <47F25436.8030607@covenantedesign.com>
References: <4a67dc390804010653i7a4f3b40vdb2c0eae56855fd4@mail.gmail.com>	<78c6bd860804010817s380394e8saff8d24c0bc3835e@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F25436.8030607@covenantedesign.com>
Message-ID: <47F264E1.5020108@projectskyline.com>

Hello,

If anyone is truly interested in the internals of php (the c code and 
data structures) take a look at the book
"Extending and Embedding PHP". Its got lots of source.

If you don't know c, its not that helpful and will be a challenging read.

- Ben

Webmaster wrote:
> You're not the only one that isn't following the inference/point here.
>
> What would be an example of a real-life application of array usage 
> that would be rendered faulty/unstable due to this limitation?
>
> Michael B Allen wrote:
>> On 4/1/08, Sol Toure <sol2ray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  
>>> Good to know:
>>> http://pankaj-k.net/weblog/2008/03/did_you_know_that_each_integer.html
>>>     
>>
>> I don't understand. Is this supposed to indicate that PHP is somehow
>> inefficient at storing array elements?
>>
>> "a single integer value stored within an PHP array uses 68 bytes: 16
>> bytes for value structure (zval), 36 bytes for hash bucket, and 2*8 =
>> 16 bytes for memory allocation headers."
>>
>> That sounds fairly reasonable to me.
>>
>> Note that each element does not incur a hash bucket. The bucket holds
>> a list. The blogger just wasn't smart enough to insert enough elements
>> to see elements hash to the same bucket.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>   
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Apr  1 15:33:56 2008
From: paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk (PaulCheung)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:33:56 +0100
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<c7c53eda0803311625o41d4988ap856e100b632c86c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007501c8942f$543e6c50$0300a8c0@X9183>

Hi

 All I am trying to do is transfer the data and time from the client machine 
upto the server. The goal is to create a MySQL record by customer number and 
store both the client time/date and server time/date for each new record 
created .

Paul

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian D." <brian at realm3.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP


> Susan hit the nail on the head. She's pointing out why I said it was a
> "hack" - if you're not understanding the problem correctly (the
> difference between client-side and server-side) then the proposed
> solution might be "simple and workable" but it's still wrong.
>
> More to the point, what exactly are your goals with this code, Paul?
> Are you just trying to get the exact time on the client's computer?
> Are you just trying to create a timestamp in their timezone?
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm watching this discussion with interest since I asked a similar 
>> question
>> last month (about sending PHP stats from a JS onclick event).  The answer
>> that came up was to put a redirect to the link page, run the PHP script 
>> on a
>> redirect.php page and then send it on to the destination.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've set it up this way and it's working fantastically, but I have tons 
>> of
>> links and I'm beginning to feel hesitant about sending users to a 
>> redirect
>> when there's so many harmful redirects out there.  (Of course, not 
>> mine...)
>>
>>
>>
>> Just as this question came up here, I was again researching it on the
>> internet, and very clearly saw that the crux of the problem is that
>> Javascript is client side and PHP server side, meaning the 2 don't mix
>> unless in Ajax.
>>
>>
>>
>> So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because except for 
>> the
>> redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
> freelance consulting, application development
> (917) 512-3594
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 



From dorgan at donaldorgan.com  Tue Apr  1 15:54:09 2008
From: dorgan at donaldorgan.com (Donald J Organ IV)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:54:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <007501c8942f$543e6c50$0300a8c0@X9183>
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<c7c53eda0803311625o41d4988ap856e100b632c86c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<007501c8942f$543e6c50$0300a8c0@X9183>
Message-ID: <47F292E1.3000100@donaldorgan.com>

Why not just store the client time zone and store server data/time??


PaulCheung wrote:
> Hi
>
> All I am trying to do is transfer the data and time from the client 
> machine upto the server. The goal is to create a MySQL record by 
> customer number and store both the client time/date and server 
> time/date for each new record created .
>
> Paul
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian D." <brian at realm3.com>
> To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
>
>
>> Susan hit the nail on the head. She's pointing out why I said it was a
>> "hack" - if you're not understanding the problem correctly (the
>> difference between client-side and server-side) then the proposed
>> solution might be "simple and workable" but it's still wrong.
>>
>> More to the point, what exactly are your goals with this code, Paul?
>> Are you just trying to get the exact time on the client's computer?
>> Are you just trying to create a timestamp in their timezone?
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Susan Shemin 
>> <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm watching this discussion with interest since I asked a similar 
>>> question
>>> last month (about sending PHP stats from a JS onclick event).  The 
>>> answer
>>> that came up was to put a redirect to the link page, run the PHP 
>>> script on a
>>> redirect.php page and then send it on to the destination.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've set it up this way and it's working fantastically, but I have 
>>> tons of
>>> links and I'm beginning to feel hesitant about sending users to a 
>>> redirect
>>> when there's so many harmful redirects out there.  (Of course, not 
>>> mine...)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just as this question came up here, I was again researching it on the
>>> internet, and very clearly saw that the crux of the problem is that
>>> Javascript is client side and PHP server side, meaning the 2 don't mix
>>> unless in Ajax.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because except 
>>> for the
>>> redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>
>>>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
>> freelance consulting, application development
>> (917) 512-3594
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Apr  1 18:28:10 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 18:28:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804010848k7fabe3c3qb942afc9cc028ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<p06240805c417e3bdd248@192.168.1.101>
	<8f0676b40804010718l14e87c0dudf9788a5d5a06abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624080dc417f78775cd@192.168.1.101>
	<8f0676b40804010848k7fabe3c3qb942afc9cc028ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240803c4185e027acf@[192.168.1.101]>

At 11:48 AM -0400 4/1/08, John Campbell wrote:
>  >  http://www.webbytedd.com/b/ajax/
>>
>Your code is fine for trivial example pages, but would be a disaster
>for a production application.
>1) The use of the global 'http' is sloppy and limiting.
>2) You need to highlight the selected menu after the callback
>completes.  Your coding style will quickly become a mess of
>document.getElementByIds().
>3) You use browser detection... you should use object detection.  A
>try/catch block is a good idea in your case.
>4) Your implementation breaks the back button.
>5) Clicking the currently selected navigation element causes
>unnecessary requests.
>
>With a library, I can fix all of these issues and cut the amount of
>code down from 50 lines to 10 lines.  If you were to fix these issues
>yourself, your code would grow to more than 250 lines.
>
>-John C.

-John C.:

I didn't say I just the sharpest crayon in the box.  :-)

You said:

>1) The use of the global 'http' is sloppy and limiting.

Please explain.

You said:
>2) You need to highlight the selected menu after the callback
>completes.  Your coding style will quickly become a mess of
>document.getElementByIds().

That was just a simple example, here's a bit more complicated template:

http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/

But, to add another page is trivial -- so, I think production for a 
typical site would hold up.

You said:

>3) You use browser detection... you should use object detection.  A
>try/catch block is a good idea in your case.

Open to be shown.  :-)

You said:

>4) Your implementation breaks the back button.

Only because there's no history. If you access it via here:

http://webbytedd.com/a.php  (last item on the right)

You'll have back history.

You said:

>5) Clicking the currently selected navigation element causes
>unnecessary requests.

Yeah, that's one of my pet peeves too. I just didn't fix it. It's 
easy enough via:

http://sperling.com/examples/smart-menu/

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Apr  1 19:22:32 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 16:22:32 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
Message-ID: <1207092152.2241@coral.he.net>

One of the projects I inherited recently contains the following code 
which is used basically to store the record ID and editstate in the 
URL's querystring.  When I first saw it, I was scratching my head 
saying, why would anyone think they needed to do it this way?  

(My preferred way to store data such as this would be in hidden fields 
which are submitted with the form, but I do realize that everyone has 
different coding styles.  And mind you, they do have hidden fields 
which do contain IDs for other purposes...)

The script in the document head is

<script language="javascript">
function jfunc(arg){
	window.location='thissamedocument.php?id='+arg+'&edit=false';
}
</script>

and then throughout the page this script is called by echoing the 
following:

                echo "<SCRIPT LANGUAGE='JavaScript'>\n";
		echo "javascript: jfunc(" . $whateverID . ")\n";
		echo "</script>\n";

Would love to hear any and all comments on the above vis a vis this 
discussion.

--Kristina


> Susan hit the nail on the head. She's pointing out why I said it was a
> "hack" - if you're not understanding the problem correctly (the
> difference between client-side and server-side) then the proposed
> solution might be "simple and workable" but it's still wrong.
> 
> More to the point, what exactly are your goals with this code, Paul?
> Are you just trying to get the exact time on the client's computer?
> Are you just trying to create a timestamp in their timezone?
> 
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Susan Shemin 
<susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm watching this discussion with interest since I asked a similar 
question
> > last month (about sending PHP stats from a JS onclick event).  The 
answer
> > that came up was to put a redirect to the link page, run the PHP 
script on a
> > redirect.php page and then send it on to the destination.
> >
> >
> >
> > I've set it up this way and it's working fantastically, but I have 
tons of
> > links and I'm beginning to feel hesitant about sending users to a 
redirect
> > when there's so many harmful redirects out there.  (Of course, not 
mine...)
> >
> >
> >
> > Just as this question came up here, I was again researching it on 
the
> > internet, and very clearly saw that the crux of the problem is that
> > Javascript is client side and PHP server side, meaning the 2 don't 
mix
> > unless in Ajax.
> >
> >
> >
> > So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because 
except for the
> > redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
> >
> >
> >
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
> freelance consulting, application development
> (917) 512-3594
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Apr  1 22:57:48 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 19:57:48 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug trying to insert after using
	mysql_insert_row
Message-ID: <1207105068.2075@coral.he.net>

I'm pulling out the ID of the previously inserted row and then 
inserting that as a lookup value in a duplicate row (two rows one for 
edit mode one for published mode).  

Various other places in the app this works fine and there really isn't 
any reason this should be happening.

The query runs fine if I do it from within phpMyAdmin -- but from the 
PHP page the query does not error out but the value in the lookup field 
remains the default value (I've tried both an integer field with 
default value of 0 and a varchar field with default NULL, and in both 
cases the lookup id value will not save to the database).

Anyone ever heard of this happenning before?  I've examined the working 
code in other parts of this app and the related db tables and cannot 
see why this is occurring.

Thanks in advance for any help!
-------------------
Kristina Anderson



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Apr  1 23:00:33 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:00:33 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Correction: Bizarro Bug trying to insert after using
	mysql_insert_id
Message-ID: <1207105233.3215@coral.he.net>

I'm pulling out the ID of the previously inserted row and then 
inserting that as a lookup value in a duplicate row (two rows one for 
edit mode one for published mode).  

Various other places in the app this works fine and there really isn't 
any reason this should be happening.

The query runs fine if I do it from within phpMyAdmin -- but from the 
PHP page the query does not error out but the value in the lookup field 
remains the default value (I've tried both an integer field with 
default value of 0 and a varchar field with default NULL, and in both 
cases the lookup id value will not save to the database).

Anyone ever heard of this happenning before?  I've examined the working 
code in other parts of this app and the related db tables and cannot 
see why this is occurring.

Thanks in advance for any help!
-------------------
Kristina Anderson



From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 23:33:41 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:33:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <1207092152.2241@coral.he.net>
References: <1207092152.2241@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804012033l29c9f7d0h83601429ebd734f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Kristina Anderson
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> One of the projects I inherited recently contains the following code
>  which is used basically to store the record ID and editstate in the
>  URL's querystring.  When I first saw it, I was scratching my head
>  saying, why would anyone think they needed to do it this way?
>
>
>  <script language="javascript">
>  function jfunc(arg){
>         window.location='thissamedocument.php?id='+arg+'&edit=false';
>  }
>  </script>
>
>  and then throughout the page this script is called by echoing the
>  following:
>
>                 echo "<SCRIPT LANGUAGE='JavaScript'>\n";
>                 echo "javascript: jfunc(" . $whateverID . ")\n";
>                 echo "</script>\n";
>
>  Would love to hear any and all comments on the above vis a vis this
>  discussion.
>

My guess is the programmer didn't understand the concept of a 302 header.

-John C.


From paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Apr  2 00:37:35 2008
From: paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk (PaulCheung)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 05:37:35 +0100
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<c7c53eda0803311625o41d4988ap856e100b632c86c4@mail.gmail.com><007501c8942f$543e6c50$0300a8c0@X9183>
	<47F292E1.3000100@donaldorgan.com>
Message-ID: <000901c8947b$45e67ac0$0300a8c0@X9183>

Excellent suggestion - However, for legal reasons it is important to capture 
the client time/date as it is always possible the date/time on the client 
machine has been altered and/or out of sync with the server time/date.

Paul

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Donald J Organ IV" <dorgan at donaldorgan.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP


> Why not just store the client time zone and store server data/time??
>
>
> PaulCheung wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> All I am trying to do is transfer the data and time from the client 
>> machine upto the server. The goal is to create a MySQL record by customer 
>> number and store both the client time/date and server time/date for each 
>> new record created .
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian D." <brian at realm3.com>
>> To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:25 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
>>
>>
>>> Susan hit the nail on the head. She's pointing out why I said it was a
>>> "hack" - if you're not understanding the problem correctly (the
>>> difference between client-side and server-side) then the proposed
>>> solution might be "simple and workable" but it's still wrong.
>>>
>>> More to the point, what exactly are your goals with this code, Paul?
>>> Are you just trying to get the exact time on the client's computer?
>>> Are you just trying to create a timestamp in their timezone?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm watching this discussion with interest since I asked a similar 
>>>> question
>>>> last month (about sending PHP stats from a JS onclick event).  The 
>>>> answer
>>>> that came up was to put a redirect to the link page, run the PHP script 
>>>> on a
>>>> redirect.php page and then send it on to the destination.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've set it up this way and it's working fantastically, but I have tons 
>>>> of
>>>> links and I'm beginning to feel hesitant about sending users to a 
>>>> redirect
>>>> when there's so many harmful redirects out there.  (Of course, not 
>>>> mine...)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just as this question came up here, I was again researching it on the
>>>> internet, and very clearly saw that the crux of the problem is that
>>>> Javascript is client side and PHP server side, meaning the 2 don't mix
>>>> unless in Ajax.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because except 
>>>> for the
>>>> redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
>>> freelance consulting, application development
>>> (917) 512-3594
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>
>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 



From david at davidmintz.org  Wed Apr  2 09:53:11 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:53:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ajax and un-breaking the ol' back button
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804020653x637ef226s6c292bc80b76fbc3@mail.gmail.com>

So I had what I thought was a pretty cool ajaxified page where you could
browse data -- in this case, lists of events scheduled on a given date -- by
choosing a date with a popup calendar or clicking arrows to navigate forward
and back. The javascript callback sends an ajax request to update the
relevant part of the doc. Oh, but then you navigate to another page, then
click your back button and guess what, this page reverts to its defaults
instead of staying in the state you left it. Is this not an example of
breaking the back button?

Before I start trying to un-break it please tell me if this logic is sound:
when they do an ajax request, store the query params in the session.
Whenever they GET the page itself, look first for these session vars and use
them if they exist, else use the defaults.

Thanks!

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Wed Apr  2 11:07:54 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:07:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug trying to insert after using
	mysql_insert_row
In-Reply-To: <1207105068.2075@coral.he.net>
References: <1207105068.2075@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <20080402150754.GA15483@panix.com>

Hi Kristina:

On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 07:57:48PM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> I'm pulling out the ID of the previously inserted row and then 
> inserting that as a lookup value in a duplicate row (two rows one for 
> edit mode one for published mode).
> 
> Various other places in the app this works fine and there really isn't 
> any reason this should be happening.
> 
> The query runs fine if I do it from within phpMyAdmin -- but from the 
> PHP page the query does not error out but the value in the lookup field 
> remains the default value

You say you're using "mysql_insert_row."  I assume you mean PHP's 
mysql_insert_id() function.  If so, there are two possible bugs that come 
to mind.

1) The table in question does not have auto_increment set for the primary 
key on that table.  If that's not it...

2) The PHP code has a bug...

You say this same logic works on other parts of the site.  So, do the 
various parts of the site use the _same_ _exact_ files/lines/functions or 
do you have separate function/include/whatever for each section of the 
application?

If you're using separate code for different sections, obviously the PHP 
code you're using for the problematic insert is where the bug is.  
Perhaps the variable you assign the id to is different than the variable 
you're using as the lookup value in the second query.

Again, if you're using separate code, you should refactor the system to 
allow you to use the same code for the same purpose throughout the 
system.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 11:14:06 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:14:06 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug trying to insert after
	using	mysql_insert_row
Message-ID: <1207149246.23678@coral.he.net>

Yes, sorry, I meant to say mysql_insert_id and corrected myself (it was 
late and I was working on this nonstop).

The ID value is correctly returned and the INSERT string builds 
correctly, so those are not the problems.  For whatever reason, after 
the INSERT is processed, the field that should contain the ID of the 
last record is not updating but remains the default value.

I inherited the system from others to debug, and because this is the 
last functionality that needs to be delivered before completion.  My 
best guess is that it might be something in the table structure that 
I'm missing, I've set up two fields one varchar and one int(11) to try 
to capture the returned ID value.  Both remain blank at this point.

> Hi Kristina:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 07:57:48PM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > I'm pulling out the ID of the previously inserted row and then 
> > inserting that as a lookup value in a duplicate row (two rows one 
for 
> > edit mode one for published mode).
> > 
> > Various other places in the app this works fine and there really 
isn't 
> > any reason this should be happening.
> > 
> > The query runs fine if I do it from within phpMyAdmin -- but from 
the 
> > PHP page the query does not error out but the value in the lookup 
field 
> > remains the default value
> 
> You say you're using "mysql_insert_row."  I assume you mean PHP's 
> mysql_insert_id() function.  If so, there are two possible bugs that 
come 
> to mind.
> 
> 1) The table in question does not have auto_increment set for the 
primary 
> key on that table.  If that's not it...
> 
> 2) The PHP code has a bug...
> 
> You say this same logic works on other parts of the site.  So, do the 
> various parts of the site use the _same_ _exact_ 
files/lines/functions or 
> do you have separate function/include/whatever for each section of 
the 
> application?
> 
> If you're using separate code for different sections, obviously the 
PHP 
> code you're using for the problematic insert is where the bug is.  
> Perhaps the variable you assign the id to is different than the 
variable 
> you're using as the lookup value in the second query.
> 
> Again, if you're using separate code, you should refactor the system 
to 
> allow you to use the same code for the same purpose throughout the 
> system.
> 
> --Dan
> 
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 11:18:10 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:18:10 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug trying to insert after
	using	mysql_insert_row
Message-ID: <1207149490.25509@coral.he.net>


114   jkljlk tyuti ttyut tyutu 0 NULL 0 [0 NULL ]
113   jkljlk tyuti ttyut tyutu 0 NULL 0 0 NULL 

Last two fields in row 114 s/b "113"....but.

Query as follows looks OK to me...

INSERT INTO who_we_are SET eid=113,eid2='113', empname ='jkljlk', 
title='tyuti', bodytext='ttyut tyutu', picture='' 

> Hi Kristina:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 07:57:48PM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > I'm pulling out the ID of the previously inserted row and then 
> > inserting that as a lookup value in a duplicate row (two rows one 
for 
> > edit mode one for published mode).
> > 
> > Various other places in the app this works fine and there really 
isn't 
> > any reason this should be happening.
> > 
> > The query runs fine if I do it from within phpMyAdmin -- but from 
the 
> > PHP page the query does not error out but the value in the lookup 
field 
> > remains the default value
> 
> You say you're using "mysql_insert_row."  I assume you mean PHP's 
> mysql_insert_id() function.  If so, there are two possible bugs that 
come 
> to mind.
> 
> 1) The table in question does not have auto_increment set for the 
primary 
> key on that table.  If that's not it...
> 
> 2) The PHP code has a bug...
> 
> You say this same logic works on other parts of the site.  So, do the 
> various parts of the site use the _same_ _exact_ 
files/lines/functions or 
> do you have separate function/include/whatever for each section of 
the 
> application?
> 
> If you're using separate code for different sections, obviously the 
PHP 
> code you're using for the problematic insert is where the bug is.  
> Perhaps the variable you assign the id to is different than the 
variable 
> you're using as the lookup value in the second query.
> 
> Again, if you're using separate code, you should refactor the system 
to 
> allow you to use the same code for the same purpose throughout the 
> system.
> 
> --Dan
> 
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Wed Apr  2 11:31:40 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:31:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug trying to insert after
	using	mysql_insert_row
In-Reply-To: <1207149246.23678@coral.he.net>
References: <1207149246.23678@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <20080402153140.GA26551@panix.com>

Hi Kristina:

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 08:14:06AM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> 
> The ID value is correctly returned and the INSERT string builds 
> correctly, so those are not the problems.
... snip ...
> My 
> best guess is that it might be something in the table structure that 
> I'm missing,

I highly doubt that.  It's a bug in the code.

Perhaps the you're mistakenly running the initial SQL insert string again 
as the second mysql_query() call?

Perhpas the column names and values defined in the second SQL string are 
misaligned?

I'd delete all records from the table.  Do a save from the web form (or 
whatever).  Then look at what shows up in the database VERY carefully.

If that doesn't do it, if you haven't done so already, use your own 
function for running the SQL rather than calling mysql_query() directly 
throughout the code.  Then your central function can have a 
logging/debugging option.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 11:35:52 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:35:52 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <1207150552.1995@coral.he.net>

What were we saying about how sometimes when we post to the list, we 
see what the problem is??????

In this case the problem is that I'm a MORON!!! I was calling $query1 
twice instead of calling $query2 in the second case....!!!

$result2 = mysql_query($query1)

{this is not the first time it took me hours to figure out that I was 
doing this....!!!  Hopefully the last time.)

> 
> 114   jkljlk tyuti ttyut tyutu 0 NULL 0 [0 NULL ]
> 113   jkljlk tyuti ttyut tyutu 0 NULL 0 0 NULL 
> 
> Last two fields in row 114 s/b "113"....but.
> 
> Query as follows looks OK to me...
> 
> INSERT INTO who_we_are SET eid=113,eid2='113', empname ='jkljlk', 
> title='tyuti', bodytext='ttyut tyutu', picture='' 
> 
> > Hi Kristina:
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 07:57:48PM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > > I'm pulling out the ID of the previously inserted row and then 
> > > inserting that as a lookup value in a duplicate row (two rows one 
> for 
> > > edit mode one for published mode).
> > > 
> > > Various other places in the app this works fine and there really 
> isn't 
> > > any reason this should be happening.
> > > 
> > > The query runs fine if I do it from within phpMyAdmin -- but from 
> the 
> > > PHP page the query does not error out but the value in the lookup 
> field 
> > > remains the default value
> > 
> > You say you're using "mysql_insert_row."  I assume you mean PHP's 
> > mysql_insert_id() function.  If so, there are two possible bugs 
that 
> come 
> > to mind.
> > 
> > 1) The table in question does not have auto_increment set for the 
> primary 
> > key on that table.  If that's not it...
> > 
> > 2) The PHP code has a bug...
> > 
> > You say this same logic works on other parts of the site.  So, do 
the 
> > various parts of the site use the _same_ _exact_ 
> files/lines/functions or 
> > do you have separate function/include/whatever for each section of 
> the 
> > application?
> > 
> > If you're using separate code for different sections, obviously the 
> PHP 
> > code you're using for the problematic insert is where the bug is.  
> > Perhaps the variable you assign the id to is different than the 
> variable 
> > you're using as the lookup value in the second query.
> > 
> > Again, if you're using separate code, you should refactor the 
system 
> to 
> > allow you to use the same code for the same purpose throughout the 
> > system.
> > 
> > --Dan
> > 
> > -- 
> >  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
> >             data intensive web and database programming
> >                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
> >  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> > 
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 11:36:55 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:36:55 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug trying to insert
	after	using	mysql_insert_row
Message-ID: <1207150615.2525@coral.he.net>

YEP!!! That was exactly what it is.  God I feel dumb!!! :)

Oh well.

> Hi Kristina:
> 
> On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 08:14:06AM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > 
> > The ID value is correctly returned and the INSERT string builds 
> > correctly, so those are not the problems.
> ... snip ...
> > My 
> > best guess is that it might be something in the table structure 
that 
> > I'm missing,
> 
> I highly doubt that.  It's a bug in the code.
> 
> Perhaps the you're mistakenly running the initial SQL insert string 
again 
> as the second mysql_query() call?
> 
> Perhpas the column names and values defined in the second SQL string 
are 
> misaligned?
> 
> I'd delete all records from the table.  Do a save from the web form 
(or 
> whatever).  Then look at what shows up in the database VERY carefully.
> 
> If that doesn't do it, if you haven't done so already, use your own 
> function for running the SQL rather than calling mysql_query() 
directly 
> throughout the code.  Then your central function can have a 
> logging/debugging option.
> 
> --Dan
> 
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Wed Apr  2 11:41:54 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:41:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <1207150552.1995@coral.he.net>
References: <1207150552.1995@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <20080402154154.GA8186@panix.com>

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 08:35:52AM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> What were we saying about how sometimes when we post to the list, we 
> see what the problem is??????
> 
> In this case the problem is that I'm a MORON!!! I was calling $query1 
> twice instead of calling $query2 in the second case....!!!
> 
> $result2 = mysql_query($query1)

Glad you figured it out.

Let me emphasize what was said in my prior email:

You need to use your own function for running the SQL rather than calling 
mysql_query() directly throughout the code.  Then your central function 
can have a logging/debugging option.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 11:49:08 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:49:08 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] best practice for calling multiple queries?
Message-ID: <1207151348.8408@coral.he.net>

One thing that I've taken away from this (aside from feeling like an 
idiot!) is that one reason for my introduction of these bugs is a 
holdover from my "ASP" coding style where I name each query $query1, 
query2, etc rather than what I see in a lot of PHP code I've inherited, 
where each query is simply named $query, even if there are 6 or 7 of 
them on the page.

What is the accepted best practice here?  I find it very confusing to 
try to read code with 16 items each named $query or $result, but 
my "ASP" style code is clearly introducing other editing issues.
-------------------
Kristina Anderson


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr  2 11:54:04 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:54:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <1207150552.1995@coral.he.net>
References: <1207150552.1995@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <47F3AC1C.90008@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> What were we saying about how sometimes when we post to the list, we 
> see what the problem is??????
> 
> In this case the problem is that I'm a MORON!!! I was calling $query1 
> twice instead of calling $query2 in the second case....!!!
> 
> $result2 = mysql_query($query1)
> 
> {this is not the first time it took me hours to figure out that I was 
> doing this....!!!  Hopefully the last time.)
> 

Shows that using more descriptive variable names is a good idea, but since you 
inherited that code that advice goes to the other guy I guess.
I'm often overly verbose in my variable naming, but thankfully there is 
autocompleted in PHPEd. :)

David


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 11:54:41 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:54:41 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <1207151681.10978@coral.he.net>

Dan,

I will definitely take your advice on this!  Thanks!

Clearly the standard "or die" error handling isn't effective in cases 
where the syntax is correct, but the wrong query is being called in the 
code...especially in these cases where the queries are identical except 
for one variable value! -- logging which query is being called could 
save me hours of fun trying to overcome my own boneheadedness.

> On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 08:35:52AM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > What were we saying about how sometimes when we post to the list, 
we 
> > see what the problem is??????
> > 
> > In this case the problem is that I'm a MORON!!! I was calling 
$query1 
> > twice instead of calling $query2 in the second case....!!!
> > 
> > $result2 = mysql_query($query1)
> 
> Glad you figured it out.
> 
> Let me emphasize what was said in my prior email:
> 
> You need to use your own function for running the SQL rather than 
calling 
> mysql_query() directly throughout the code.  Then your central 
function 
> can have a logging/debugging option.
> 
> --Dan
> 
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From smanes at magpie.com  Wed Apr  2 12:14:08 2008
From: smanes at magpie.com (Steve Manes)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:14:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <20080402154154.GA8186@panix.com>
References: <1207150552.1995@coral.he.net> <20080402154154.GA8186@panix.com>
Message-ID: <47F3B0D0.6030706@magpie.com>

Daniel Convissor wrote:
> Glad you figured it out.
> 
> Let me emphasize what was said in my prior email:
> 
> You need to use your own function for running the SQL rather than calling 
> mysql_query() directly throughout the code.  Then your central function 
> can have a logging/debugging option.

I generally wrap all database calls in API functions specific to the 
task being performed, i.e. get_patient_referrals_list(), 
put_private_transport_segment(), update_clinic_demographic().  That way 
the logging is specific to the task and any specialized processing that 
needs to be done to the data can be done in one place.


From chsnyder at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 12:28:51 2008
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:28:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ajax and un-breaking the ol' back button
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804020653x637ef226s6c292bc80b76fbc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804020653x637ef226s6c292bc80b76fbc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690804020928v5d4f5c44t509db756c8b50c5d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:53 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:

> Before I start trying to un-break it please tell me if this logic is sound:
> when they do an ajax request, store the query params in the session.
> Whenever they GET the page itself, look first for these session vars and use
> them if they exist, else use the defaults.
>

That's probably the easiest way to do it, if you're already using sessions.

You could also use js to write the current params directly to cookie.


-- 
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 12:33:48 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:33:48 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] best practice for calling multiple queries?
In-Reply-To: <1207151348.8408@coral.he.net>
References: <1207151348.8408@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804020933v778fe3ebm2ecb4d594bdb171b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Kristina Anderson
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> One thing that I've taken away from this (aside from feeling like an
>  idiot!) is that one reason for my introduction of these bugs is a
>  holdover from my "ASP" coding style where I name each query $query1,
>  query2, etc rather than what I see in a lot of PHP code I've inherited,
>  where each query is simply named $query, even if there are 6 or 7 of
>  them on the page.
>
>  What is the accepted best practice here?  I find it very confusing to
>  try to read code with 16 items each named $query or $result, but
>  my "ASP" style code is clearly introducing other editing issues.

I don't see how query1, query2 would be any more clear than just using
the same variable name.  Using the same variable name indicates that
the previous statement will not be used again and frees the memory.  I
prefer using names like $sql and $cursor over $query and $result,
because they are more accurate names.  It is clear that "sql" is a
string, and a "cursor" is a pointer to a result set, not actual data.

-John C.


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Wed Apr  2 12:49:50 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:49:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] best practice for calling multiple queries?
In-Reply-To: <1207151348.8408@coral.he.net>
References: <1207151348.8408@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <20080402164950.GA25234@panix.com>

Hi Kristina:

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 08:49:08AM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> I name each query $query1, 
> query2, etc rather than what I see in a lot of PHP code I've inherited, 
> where each query is simply named $query, even if there are 6 or 7 of 
> them on the page.

I use $sql for all queries.  It's short and to the point.  Plus it 
ensures you're running the most recenlty defined $sql and are not adding 
overhead with extra variables.  It also allows you to copy and paste the 
actual query execution line over and over and over without having to 
worry (which is probably how your bug got introduced).

Even if you want to give each query string a unique variable name, don't 
name them 1, 2, 3.  Give them real names that descirbe what they are.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Wed Apr  2 12:53:10 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:53:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <47F3B0D0.6030706@magpie.com>
References: <1207150552.1995@coral.he.net> <20080402154154.GA8186@panix.com>
	<47F3B0D0.6030706@magpie.com>
Message-ID: <20080402165310.GB25234@panix.com>

Howdy Steve:

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 12:14:08PM -0400, Steve Manes wrote:
> 
> I generally wrap all database calls in API functions specific to the 
> task being performed, i.e. get_patient_referrals_list(), 
> put_private_transport_segment(), update_clinic_demographic().  That way 
> the logging is specific to the task and any specialized processing that 
> needs to be done to the data can be done in one place.

That's good.  That still doens't obviate the need to have those functions 
then call one central function that actually runs the query.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr  2 12:55:26 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:55:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] best practice for calling multiple queries?
In-Reply-To: <1207151348.8408@coral.he.net>
References: <1207151348.8408@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <47F3BA7E.6080504@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> One thing that I've taken away from this (aside from feeling like an 
> idiot!) is that one reason for my introduction of these bugs is a 
> holdover from my "ASP" coding style where I name each query $query1, 
> query2, etc rather than what I see in a lot of PHP code I've inherited, 
> where each query is simply named $query, even if there are 6 or 7 of 
> them on the page.
> 
> What is the accepted best practice here?  I find it very confusing to 
> try to read code with 16 items each named $query or $result, but 
> my "ASP" style code is clearly introducing other editing issues.


I don't know if it is "best practice", but I give the query string variables 
descriptive names. Typically I use three variables for a SELECT query named 
such as
- $getcategoriesquery => that is the variable that holds the SQL query string
- $getcategoriesqueryrun => that is the variable that holds the return value 
from mysql_query()
- $getcategoriesqueryresult => this is typically an array that holds the 
currently read out row from which I would get the value to be added to the 
$categories array

I suspect this to be wasteful as PHP holds on to the variables even when I no 
longer use them within the script, but I found it to be really helpful when 
using the ....queryrun as a flag to decide if some query worked or generated a 
result when using it in an If block or such 50 lines further down. This 
verbose naming helps me a lot to figure out if the current value stored in a 
variable is plausible in regards to the variable name and the expected value.

I don't know if this is the best approach, but I am sure it is better than to 
name all queries $query or just to number them. Half a year from now nobody 
knows what the difference between $query5 and $query3 is unless the line where 
the SQL string is assigned is quickly found.

David


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 13:07:29 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:07:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ajax and un-breaking the ol' back button
In-Reply-To: <b76252690804020928v5d4f5c44t509db756c8b50c5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804020653x637ef226s6c292bc80b76fbc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690804020928v5d4f5c44t509db756c8b50c5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804021007n63271797k2574c082beea2988@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:28 PM, csnyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:53 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:
>
>  > Before I start trying to un-break it please tell me if this logic is sound:
>  > when they do an ajax request, store the query params in the session.
>  > Whenever they GET the page itself, look first for these session vars and use
>  > them if they exist, else use the defaults.
>  >
>
>  That's probably the easiest way to do it, if you're already using sessions.
>
>  You could also use js to write the current params directly to cookie.

Back button navigation is specific to the window... cookies/sessions
are 1 per browser instance.  You will have a mismatch, but it may be
one you can live with.  The best way to do it is to save the query
parameters in the address bar.  In gmail, the page view information is
saved after the '#' sign.  Take a look at the jquery history plugin.


From david at davidmintz.org  Wed Apr  2 13:17:07 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:17:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ajax and un-breaking the ol' back button
In-Reply-To: <b76252690804020928v5d4f5c44t509db756c8b50c5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804020653x637ef226s6c292bc80b76fbc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690804020928v5d4f5c44t509db756c8b50c5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804021017t35a4d430t75b998a75b0c257a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:28 PM, csnyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:53 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:
>
> > Before I start trying to un-break it please tell me if this logic is
> sound:
> > when they do an ajax request, store the query params in the session.
> > Whenever they GET the page itself, look first for these session vars and
> use
> > them if they exist, else use the defaults.
> >
>
> That's probably the easiest way to do it, if you're already using
> sessions.
>
> You could also use js to write the current params directly to cookie.



This works. It's kind of baroque, if not to say warped, but within a
controller method in a Zend Framework app, we go:


        $session = new Zend_Session_Namespace('Schedule');

        $params = (object) $this->getRequest()->getParams();
        $defaultParams = array(
            'language'=>'all',
            'date' => date('Y-m-d')
        );

        foreach ($defaultParams as $name => $default) {
            if (!empty($params->$name)) {
                ${$name} = $session->$name = $params->$name ;
            } elseif ($session->$name) {
                ${$name} = $session->$name;
            } else {
                ${$name} = $default;
            }
        }

       // then $date and $language get passed to data-fetching methods in my
model

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From david at davidmintz.org  Wed Apr  2 13:21:11 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:21:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ajax and un-breaking the ol' back button
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804021007n63271797k2574c082beea2988@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804020653x637ef226s6c292bc80b76fbc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690804020928v5d4f5c44t509db756c8b50c5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<8f0676b40804021007n63271797k2574c082beea2988@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804021021u77c6d657n5d208dab233f6844@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:07 PM, John Campbell <jcampbell1 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Back button navigation is specific to the window... cookies/sessions
> are 1 per browser instance.  You will have a mismatch, but it may be
> one you can live with.  The best way to do it is to save the query
> parameters in the address bar.  In gmail, the page view information is
> saved after the '#' sign.  Take a look at the jquery history plugin.
>


Ooops. I think I will live with it for now but thanks for the lesson. I was
wondering what mail.google.com/mail/#label/nyphp/1190f69a2f1bd0da meant (-:
Those clever google dudes.

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From ken at secdat.com  Wed Apr  2 14:58:49 2008
From: ken at secdat.com (Kenneth Downs)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:58:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] best practice for calling multiple queries?
In-Reply-To: <20080402164950.GA25234@panix.com>
References: <1207151348.8408@coral.he.net> <20080402164950.GA25234@panix.com>
Message-ID: <47F3D769.5000003@secdat.com>

Daniel Convissor wrote:
> Hi Kristina:
>
> On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 08:49:08AM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>   
>> I name each query $query1, 
>> query2, etc rather than what I see in a lot of PHP code I've inherited, 
>> where each query is simply named $query, even if there are 6 or 7 of 
>> them on the page.
>>     
>
> I use $sql for all queries.  It's short and to the point.  Plus it 
> ensures you're running the most recenlty defined $sql and are not adding 
> overhead with extra variables.  It also allows you to copy and paste the 
> actual query execution line over and over and over without having to 
> worry (which is probably how your bug got introduced).
>
> Even if you want to give each query string a unique variable name, don't 
> name them 1, 2, 3.  Give them real names that descirbe what they are.
>   

Normally I wouldn't waste bandwidth with a "me too" response, but Dan's 
reply here is very clear and to the point.  Simplicity can be a very 
powerful productivity tool.



-- 
Kenneth Downs
Secure Data Software, Inc.
www.secdat.com    www.andromeda-project.org
631-689-7200   Fax: 631-689-0527
cell: 631-379-0010

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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 16:33:53 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:33:53 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
Message-ID: <1207168433.17503@coral.he.net>

Paul,

Basically (at least IMHO), the best way for you to start thinking about 
solving problems of how to pass variables from let's say a document 
object back to the server to a PHP script (for instance the user system 
date & time as recorded by the document object as in your example) is 
for you to think in terms of using forms -- you can store your user's 
system date & time in the hidden field(s) and then when they submit the 
form, record it in the database, and it will be accessible to your 
server-side script after form submit.

The good part of hidden fields is it's easy to view the source and make 
sure your variables are where they should be.  The bad part is, 
obviously, you don't want to use them to store anything sensitive, 
confidential or that otherwise you would not want some savvy user who 
knows how to view document source to read, because they will be in 
there.

This is exactly the type of thing that I recall years ago trying to 
wrap my head around when I first started out.  (Now, I'm reduced to 
missing stupid bugs when I mistype a query name!!).

Kristina

> I am really sorry for being so utterly thick; but I still just do not 
get 
> it. I would be so grateful if you have any coded examples that I 
could look 
> at and follow. while I really value what everybody has said most of 
it was 
> just beyond my understanding.
> 
> Paul
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 12:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
> 
> 
> > One of the projects I inherited recently contains the following code
> > which is used basically to store the record ID and editstate in the
> > URL's querystring.  When I first saw it, I was scratching my head
> > saying, why would anyone think they needed to do it this way?
> >
> > (My preferred way to store data such as this would be in hidden 
fields
> > which are submitted with the form, but I do realize that everyone 
has
> > different coding styles.  And mind you, they do have hidden fields
> > which do contain IDs for other purposes...)
> >
> > The script in the document head is
> >
> > <script language="javascript">
> > function jfunc(arg){
> > window.location='thissamedocument.php?id='+arg+'&edit=false';
> > }
> > </script>
> >
> > and then throughout the page this script is called by echoing the
> > following:
> >
> >                echo "<SCRIPT LANGUAGE='JavaScript'>\n";
> > echo "javascript: jfunc(" . $whateverID . ")\n";
> > echo "</script>\n";
> >
> > Would love to hear any and all comments on the above vis a vis this
> > discussion.
> >
> > --Kristina
> >
> >
> >> Susan hit the nail on the head. She's pointing out why I said it 
was a
> >> "hack" - if you're not understanding the problem correctly (the
> >> difference between client-side and server-side) then the proposed
> >> solution might be "simple and workable" but it's still wrong.
> >>
> >> More to the point, what exactly are your goals with this code, 
Paul?
> >> Are you just trying to get the exact time on the client's computer?
> >> Are you just trying to create a timestamp in their timezone?
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Susan Shemin
> > <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I'm watching this discussion with interest since I asked a 
similar
> > question
> >> > last month (about sending PHP stats from a JS onclick event).  
The
> > answer
> >> > that came up was to put a redirect to the link page, run the PHP
> > script on a
> >> > redirect.php page and then send it on to the destination.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I've set it up this way and it's working fantastically, but I 
have
> > tons of
> >> > links and I'm beginning to feel hesitant about sending users to a
> > redirect
> >> > when there's so many harmful redirects out there.  (Of course, 
not
> > mine...)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Just as this question came up here, I was again researching it on
> > the
> >> > internet, and very clearly saw that the crux of the problem is 
that
> >> > Javascript is client side and PHP server side, meaning the 2 
don't
> > mix
> >> > unless in Ajax.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because
> > except for the
> >> > redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Susan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> >
> >> >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >> >
> >> >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
> >> freelance consulting, application development
> >> (917) 512-3594
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >>
> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 
> 
> 
> 


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 16:36:34 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:36:34 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <1207168594.18880@coral.he.net>

If you guys could point me in the direction of some online examples of 
how people modularize this type of code, I would be very grateful.  

I'm ready to take this to the next level (I just wish I could get back 
those 5 hours I wasted not seeing that I was calling the wrong query).

> Howdy Steve:
> 
> On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 12:14:08PM -0400, Steve Manes wrote:
> > 
> > I generally wrap all database calls in API functions specific to 
the 
> > task being performed, i.e. get_patient_referrals_list(), 
> > put_private_transport_segment(), update_clinic_demographic().  That 
way 
> > the logging is specific to the task and any specialized processing 
that 
> > needs to be done to the data can be done in one place.
> 
> That's good.  That still doens't obviate the need to have those 
functions 
> then call one central function that actually runs the query.
> 
> --Dan
> 
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 16:49:40 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:49:40 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] best practice for calling multiple queries?
Message-ID: <1207169380.24584@coral.he.net>

Dan,

That's how it got introduced for sure...I copy the $result line and 
then just increment the numbers [but forgot to increment the number of 
the query I was executing]...NOT going to do that any more... !

> Hi Kristina:
> 
> On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 08:49:08AM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > I name each query $query1, 
> > query2, etc rather than what I see in a lot of PHP code I've 
inherited, 
> > where each query is simply named $query, even if there are 6 or 7 
of 
> > them on the page.
> 
> I use $sql for all queries.  It's short and to the point.  Plus it 
> ensures you're running the most recenlty defined $sql and are not 
adding 
> overhead with extra variables.  It also allows you to copy and paste 
the 
> actual query execution line over and over and over without having to 
> worry (which is probably how your bug got introduced).
> 
> Even if you want to give each query string a unique variable name, 
don't 
> name them 1, 2, 3.  Give them real names that descirbe what they are.
> 
> --Dan
> 
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr  2 17:10:11 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:10:11 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] best practice for calling multiple queries?
Message-ID: <1207170611.32038@coral.he.net>

if the memory is freed when you reuse the variable names, then probably 
from a performance standpoint that is the best way to do it?

Hmm.


> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Kristina Anderson
> <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> > One thing that I've taken away from this (aside from feeling like an
> >  idiot!) is that one reason for my introduction of these bugs is a
> >  holdover from my "ASP" coding style where I name each query 
$query1,
> >  query2, etc rather than what I see in a lot of PHP code I've 
inherited,
> >  where each query is simply named $query, even if there are 6 or 7 
of
> >  them on the page.
> >
> >  What is the accepted best practice here?  I find it very confusing 
to
> >  try to read code with 16 items each named $query or $result, but
> >  my "ASP" style code is clearly introducing other editing issues.
> 
> I don't see how query1, query2 would be any more clear than just using
> the same variable name.  Using the same variable name indicates that
> the previous statement will not be used again and frees the memory.  I
> prefer using names like $sql and $cursor over $query and $result,
> because they are more accurate names.  It is clear that "sql" is a
> string, and a "cursor" is a pointer to a result set, not actual data.
> 
> -John C.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From smanes at magpie.com  Wed Apr  2 17:13:49 2008
From: smanes at magpie.com (Steve Manes)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:13:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <20080402165310.GB25234@panix.com>
References: <1207150552.1995@coral.he.net>
	<20080402154154.GA8186@panix.com>	<47F3B0D0.6030706@magpie.com>
	<20080402165310.GB25234@panix.com>
Message-ID: <47F3F70D.40909@magpie.com>

Daniel Convissor wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 12:14:08PM -0400, Steve Manes wrote:
>> I generally wrap all database calls in API functions specific to the 
>> task being performed, i.e. get_patient_referrals_list(), 
>> put_private_transport_segment(), update_clinic_demographic().  That way 
>> the logging is specific to the task and any specialized processing that 
>> needs to be done to the data can be done in one place.
> 
> That's good.  That still doens't obviate the need to have those functions 
> then call one central function that actually runs the query.

I've never had much need to generalize the database API functions more 
than that if I'm already wrapping them inside dedicated application API 
functions.  I always parameterize the queries so the only potentially 
reusable components would be:

   $result = pg_query_params($db, $sql, $array);

   if (!$result) {
      return array(false, pg_last_error($db));
   }

   $rows = array();

   while ($row = pg_fetch_assoc($result)) {
      $rows[] = $row;
   }

   return array(true, $rows);

But that's limiting as well because some queries are expected to return 
only one row, some return many rows, some result sets are enumerated, 
some are hashes, some need to return the exit code of a stored 
procedure, not the database function.  Also, I like the function to 
return database errors branded with the __FUNCTION__ or __CLASS__ name 
where the error occurred.



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Wed Apr  2 20:25:10 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 20:25:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <1207168594.18880@coral.he.net>
References: <1207168594.18880@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <20080403002510.GA29831@panix.com>

Hi Kristina:

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 01:36:34PM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> If you guys could point me in the direction of some online examples of 
> how people modularize this type of code, I would be very grateful.  

Attached is a radically stripped down version of the database class we 
used on a recent project.  It uses PHP's mysqli extension in 
object-oriented mode.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
-------------- next part --------------
<?php

/**
 * A class for MySQL DBMS specific methods using PHP's mysqli extension
 */
class db extends mysqli {
    /**
     * Holds mysqli::$info after executing queries
     *
     * Needed because log_warnings() runs another query that overwrites
     * mysqli::$info.
     *
     * @var string
     */
    private $query_info = '';

    /**
     * Warnings are stored here
     * @see db::log_warnings()
     * @var array
     */
    public $warnings = array();

    protected $host = '';
    protected $user = '';
    protected $pass = '';
    protected $db = '';
    protected $port = null;


    /**
     * Sets connection information properties then calls parent's constructor
     */
    public function __construct($host, $user, $pass, $db, $port=null) {
        $this->host = $host;
        $this->user = $user;
        $this->pass = $pass;
        $this->db   = $db;
        $this->port = $port;

        $return = parent::__construct($host, $user, $pass, $db, $port);
        if ($return === false) {
            log_it(LOG_NAME_DB, 'Could not connect to database: ('.
                    mysqli_connect_errno().') '.mysqli_connect_error());
            throw new Exception('Could not connect to database', 5002);
        }

        return $return;
    }

    public function __toString() {
        return get_class($this).' instance -> DB: '.$this->db.
                '   HOST: '.$this->host.'   PORT: '.$this->port;
    }

    public function esc($str) {
        return $this->real_escape_string($str);
    }

    public function log_error($sql, $code, $message, $trace) {
        $body = 'SQL ERROR:  ('.$code.') '.$message."\n".
                '[Connection: '.$this->__toString()."]\n".
                $sql;
        log_it(LOG_NAME_DB, $body);
    }

    public function log_query($sql, $trace) {
        $body  = '[Connection: '.$this->__toString()."]\n".
                $sql;
        log_it(LOG_NAME_DB, $body);
    }

    /**
     * Checks for warnings and handles them as instructed
     *
     * @param string $sql           the SQL string
     * @param bool   $log_warnings  if FALSE, warnings get put into the
     *                              $warnings property instead of being logged
     */
    public function log_warnings($sql, $log_warnings) {
        $this->warnings = array();

        if ($this->warning_count == 0) {
            return;
        }

        $info_tmp = $this->query_info;

        $warnings = $this->run_manipulate('SHOW WARNINGS');

        $error = '';
        foreach ($warnings as $warning) {
            $error .= $warning['Message']."\n";

            if (!$log_warnings) {
                $this->warnings[] = $warning['Message'];
            }
        }

        if ($log_warnings) {
            $body = 'SQL WARNING: '.$error."\n".
                    '[Connection: '.$this->__toString()."]\n".
                    $sql;
            log_it(LOG_NAME_DB, $body);
        }

        $this->query_info = $info_tmp;
    }

    public function matched_rows() {
        if (ereg('^Rows matched: ([0-9]+)', $this->query_info, $regs)) {
            return $regs[1];
        } else {
            return -100;
        }
    }

    /**
     * The method for executing data manipulation queries (INSERT, UPDATE, etc)
     *
     * @param string $sql           the SQL string to execute
     * @param bool   $log_warnings  (TRUE) if FALSE, warnings get put into the
     *                              $warnings property instead of being logged
     * @return void
     * @uses db::log_warnings()
     */
    public function run_manipulate($sql, $log_warnings=true) {
        if (LOG_QUERIES) {
            $this->log_query($sql, debug_backtrace());
        }

        if (!(parent::query($sql))) {
            $this->log_error($sql, $this->errno, $this->error,
                    debug_backtrace());
            throw new Exception('Query Error in run_manipulate()', 500);
        }

        $this->query_info = $this->info;
        $this->log_warnings($sql, $log_warnings);
    }

    /**
     * The method for executing SELECT queries, it returns the results in
     * the format specified by $output_type
     *
     * @param string $sql              the SQL string to execute
     * @param string $output_type      how the output should be formatted
     *                                 [...truncated for public consumption...]
     * @param string $key              column name to use as key for array
     *                                 output types
     * @return void
     */
    public function run_select($sql, $output_type='array', $key='') {
        if (LOG_QUERIES) {
            $this->log_query($sql, debug_backtrace());
        }

        if (!($result = parent::query($sql))) {
            $this->log_error($sql, $this->errno, $this->error,
                    debug_backtrace());
            throw new Exception('Query Error in run_select()', 500);
        }

        /*
         * This is a very simplified version of BUT ONE of the $output_type's.
         * Others are left to your imagination.
         */
        $output = array();
        while ($row = $result->fetch_array(MYSQLI_ASSOC)) {
            if ($key != '') {
                $output[$row[$key]] = $row;
            } else {
                $output[] = $row;
            }
        }

        $result->free();
        return $output;
    }
}

From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 21:36:51 2008
From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (Guilherme Blanco)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 22:36:51 -0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug -- AHA!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <20080403002510.GA29831@panix.com>
References: <1207168594.18880@coral.he.net> <20080403002510.GA29831@panix.com>
Message-ID: <bcb7aa500804021836h9d4e334u9d08d44df096bf83@mail.gmail.com>

If you are opened for suggestions, you should give a try to Doctrine project.

http://www.phpdoctrine.org

Doctrine is a ORM tool for PHP.

IMHO, the only ORM tool that exists for PHP (I do not want to open
this thread for discussions, even Propel devs say their project IS NOT
an ORM tool). Also, I do not want to listen to small two-month only
projects.


Regards,

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Daniel Convissor
<danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:
> Hi Kristina:
>
>
>  On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 01:36:34PM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>  > If you guys could point me in the direction of some online examples of
>  > how people modularize this type of code, I would be very grateful.
>
>  Attached is a radically stripped down version of the database class we
>  used on a recent project.  It uses PHP's mysqli extension in
>  object-oriented mode.
>
>
>
>  --Dan
>
>  --
>   T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>   4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
>
> _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
S?o Carlos - SP/Brazil

From preinheimer at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 23:05:41 2008
From: preinheimer at gmail.com (Paul Reinheimer)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 23:05:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Distance PHP training?
In-Reply-To: <1206059986.2909.0.camel@leam>
References: <1205975393.2853.4.camel@leam>
	<p06240808c408355ea3f3@192.168.1.101> <1206059986.2909.0.camel@leam>
Message-ID: <6ec19ec70804022005i475976bcw626d8bb0eba57dc5@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think we're within your budget, but we do online training (and
actually deliver several of
the courses Zend offers :))
http://phparch.com/c/phpa/training



paul
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From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 09:03:40 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:03:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>

Just read a recent review of some open source CMS software, may help
in your search:

http://www.adobe.com/newsletters/edge/april2008/articles/article4/index.html?trackingid=CAFWA

- jake

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 3:11 AM, BAS <lists at nopersonal.info> wrote:
> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>
> > Also, if you have any programming questions, put them out there now rather
> than later so that you can educate yourself and be able to back up your
> employer's request to justify why it will take the amount of time it will
> take.
> >
>
>  Good advice. As a matter fact, I installed both Drupal & Joomla Thursday in
> the hopes that I can take a good long peek under the hood this weekend to
> see what I'm up against before I submit my estimate to her.
>
>
>
> > Good luck!  You will learn a lot doing this and have fun too :)
> >
>
>  Thanks--I'll probably need all the luck, caffeine, and nicotine I can get
> my hands on!
>
>  Bev ;-)
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From david at davidmintz.org  Thu Apr  3 09:41:42 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:41:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug trying to insert after using
	mysql_insert_row
In-Reply-To: <1207150615.2525@coral.he.net>
References: <1207150615.2525@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804030641w506bd14ci53c34f3151b4304e@mail.gmail.com>

Sort of OT, but... isn't the old mysql_xxx API on its way to deprecation?

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Kristina Anderson <
ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:

> YEP!!! That was exactly what it is.  God I feel dumb!!! :)
>
> Oh well.
>
> > Hi Kristina:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 08:14:06AM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > >
> > > The ID value is correctly returned and the INSERT string builds
> > > correctly, so those are not the problems.
> > ... snip ...
> > > My
> > > best guess is that it might be something in the table structure
> that
> > > I'm missing,
> >
> > I highly doubt that.  It's a bug in the code.
> >
>
[...]
-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Thu Apr  3 10:01:07 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:01:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bizarro Bug trying to insert after using
	mysql_insert_row
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804030641w506bd14ci53c34f3151b4304e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1207150615.2525@coral.he.net>
	<721f1cc50804030641w506bd14ci53c34f3151b4304e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080403140107.GA28861@panix.com>

On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 09:41:42AM -0400, David Mintz wrote:
> Sort of OT, but... isn't the old mysql_xxx API on its way to deprecation?

Yep.  Which is another reason to use a database library rather than 
calling the database extension functions directly all over the place.  
When the DBMS changes, you (generally) only need to change your library, 
not every database function call throughout your entire application.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 14:35:06 2008
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:35:06 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>

Forget everything about building your own store, STOP!

Go to amazon, use their new software for store building. DOES
EVERYTHING 10X  over.  Sigh, I'm out of business now.  14 years of
building ecommerce sites, they finally caught up with me, I can't
compete with them.  I guess that's a good thing.

:-)  ed

PS, hmmmmm, magento looks pretty cool however.

http://www.magentocommerce.com/



On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just read a recent review of some open source CMS software, may help
>  in your search:
>
>  http://www.adobe.com/newsletters/edge/april2008/articles/article4/index.html?trackingid=CAFWA
>
>  - jake
>
>
>
>  On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 3:11 AM, BAS <lists at nopersonal.info> wrote:
>  > Kristina Anderson wrote:
>  >
>  > > Also, if you have any programming questions, put them out there now rather
>  > than later so that you can educate yourself and be able to back up your
>  > employer's request to justify why it will take the amount of time it will
>  > take.
>  > >
>  >
>  >  Good advice. As a matter fact, I installed both Drupal & Joomla Thursday in
>  > the hopes that I can take a good long peek under the hood this weekend to
>  > see what I'm up against before I submit my estimate to her.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > > Good luck!  You will learn a lot doing this and have fun too :)
>  > >
>  >
>  >  Thanks--I'll probably need all the luck, caffeine, and nicotine I can get
>  > my hands on!
>  >
>  >  Bev ;-)
>  >
>  >
>  >  _______________________________________________
>  >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  >
>  >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>  >
>  >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>  >
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Blog: http://www.utopiaparkway.com
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
Projects: http://flickr.com/photos/86842405 at N00/
Store: http://astore.amazon.com/httpwwwutopic-20


From randalrust at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 14:38:43 2008
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:38:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50804031138r49e66423ycfee1f39ed1bd7e4@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Edward Potter <edwardpotter at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Go to amazon, use their new software for store building.

Are you referring to this: http://webstore.amazon.com/

I can think of plenty of clients that would balk at a 7% commission.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 17:56:08 2008
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:56:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50804031138r49e66423ycfee1f39ed1bd7e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50804031138r49e66423ycfee1f39ed1bd7e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5949a380804031456o63a51bebsa6d0efd6ff10c97c@mail.gmail.com>

You make that up in the shipping, the tools are just toooooo
compelling to ignore.

We're launching 100 stores this month -  so will report back.  :-) ed


On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Randal Rust <randalrust at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Edward Potter <edwardpotter at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  >  Go to amazon, use their new software for store building.
>
>  Are you referring to this: http://webstore.amazon.com/
>
>  I can think of plenty of clients that would balk at a 7% commission.
>
>  --
>  Randal Rust
>  R.Squared Communications
>  www.r2communications.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Blog: http://www.utopiaparkway.com
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
Projects: http://flickr.com/photos/86842405 at N00/
Store: http://astore.amazon.com/httpwwwutopic-20


From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Thu Apr  3 18:05:26 2008
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:05:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50804031138r49e66423ycfee1f39ed1bd7e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50804031138r49e66423ycfee1f39ed1bd7e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014001c895d6$d28487e0$f5063181@ERTop>

Not to say the $59.99 per month plus the 7% commission. I would say charge
the 7% but no monthly fees that would be great. But monthly fees and
commissions that's a bit much.

ER

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Randal Rust
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 2:39 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Edward Potter <edwardpotter at gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Go to amazon, use their new software for store building.

Are you referring to this: http://webstore.amazon.com/

I can think of plenty of clients that would balk at a 7% commission.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Thu Apr  3 18:30:40 2008
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:30:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <c5949a380804031456o63a51bebsa6d0efd6ff10c97c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50804031138r49e66423ycfee1f39ed1bd7e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804031456o63a51bebsa6d0efd6ff10c97c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015101c895da$5914be80$f5063181@ERTop>

I don't know about that, just because personally I don't shop at stores that
I think over charge for shipping and I don't think I'm alone on that one. 

ER

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Edward Potter
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 5:56 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours

You make that up in the shipping, the tools are just toooooo
compelling to ignore.

We're launching 100 stores this month -  so will report back.  :-) ed


On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Randal Rust <randalrust at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Edward Potter <edwardpotter at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>  >  Go to amazon, use their new software for store building.
>
>  Are you referring to this: http://webstore.amazon.com/
>
>  I can think of plenty of clients that would balk at a 7% commission.
>
>  --
>  Randal Rust
>  R.Squared Communications
>  www.r2communications.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Blog: http://www.utopiaparkway.com
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
Projects: http://flickr.com/photos/86842405 at N00/
Store: http://astore.amazon.com/httpwwwutopic-20
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 20:04:34 2008
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:04:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <015101c895da$5914be80$f5063181@ERTop>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50804031138r49e66423ycfee1f39ed1bd7e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804031456o63a51bebsa6d0efd6ff10c97c@mail.gmail.com>
	<015101c895da$5914be80$f5063181@ERTop>
Message-ID: <c5949a380804031704o43466978xf80aaeb83883cc6f@mail.gmail.com>

I think there was an interesting study for ebay:

2 items, exactly the same:

1 is $100 with $10 shipping
1 is $90 with $25 shipping

The cheaper item with expensive shipping will consistently outsell the
higher priced item with less shipping costs - even though the cheaper
priced item will end up costing you more.  Just something hard-wired
in the brain.

That's why the 1 penny sellers on ebay make a killing.

On 4/3/08, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com> wrote:
> I don't know about that, just because personally I don't shop at stores that
>  I think over charge for shipping and I don't think I'm alone on that one.
>
>
>  ER
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
>
> Behalf Of Edward Potter
>  Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 5:56 PM
>  To: NYPHP Talk
>  Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
>
>
> You make that up in the shipping, the tools are just toooooo
>  compelling to ignore.
>
>  We're launching 100 stores this month -  so will report back.  :-) ed
>
>
>  On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Randal Rust <randalrust at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Edward Potter <edwardpotter at gmail.com>
>  wrote:
>  >
>  >  >  Go to amazon, use their new software for store building.
>  >
>  >  Are you referring to this: http://webstore.amazon.com/
>  >
>  >  I can think of plenty of clients that would balk at a 7% commission.
>  >
>  >  --
>  >  Randal Rust
>  >  R.Squared Communications
>  >  www.r2communications.com
>  >
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  >
>  >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>  >
>  >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>  >
>
>
>
>  --
>  IM/iChat: ejpusa
>  Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
>  Blog: http://www.utopiaparkway.com
>  Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
>  Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
>  Projects: http://flickr.com/photos/86842405 at N00/
>  Store: http://astore.amazon.com/httpwwwutopic-20
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Blog: http://www.utopiaparkway.com
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
Projects: http://flickr.com/photos/86842405 at N00/
Store: http://astore.amazon.com/httpwwwutopic-20


From lists at silmail.com  Thu Apr  3 21:32:02 2008
From: lists at silmail.com (Jiju Thomas Mathew)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:02:02 +0530
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <688499.15038.qm@web50211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6431a0f40804031832l257bb6d9i5e7b73befa1ac0fd@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because except for
> the redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
>
Though it is a bit off topic, I suggest that you use one of the available
libraries out there, which will make things easier for you and make your
code more cleaner. Starting from cba.js, to prototype.js there are a whole
bunch

-- 
Jiju Thomas Mathew
Technology Officer, Saturn Systemwares Pvt Ltd
Gayathri, Technopark, Trivandrum, Kerala, India
Mob: 91 94470 47989 Tel : +91 471 3255001
http://www.saturn.in

Personal Technical Blog
http://www.php-trivandrum.org
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From susan_shemin at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  3 21:37:39 2008
From: susan_shemin at yahoo.com (Susan Shemin)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 18:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
Message-ID: <331023.80076.qm@web50209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

funny you say that -- I just was reading an article this afternoon on devx.com about prototype and script-i-licious and I'm going to check it out



----- Original Message ----
From: Jiju Thomas Mathew <lists at silmail.com>
To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2008 6:32:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP




On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:

 
So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because except for the redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
Though it is a bit off topic, I suggest that you use one of the available libraries out there, which will make things easier for you and make your code more cleaner. Starting from cba.js, to prototype.js there are a whole bunch

-- 
Jiju Thomas Mathew
Technology Officer, Saturn Systemwares Pvt Ltd
Gayathri, Technopark, Trivandrum, Kerala, India
Mob: 91 94470 47989 Tel : +91 471 3255001
http://www.saturn.in

Personal Technical Blog
http://www.php-trivandrum.org
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From susan_shemin at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  3 23:24:31 2008
From: susan_shemin at yahoo.com (Susan Shemin)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:24:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
Message-ID: <473887.57017.qm@web50209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

sorry, it's script.aculo.us and prototype

here's the article:  http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/37574



----- Original Message ----
From: Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com>
To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2008 6:37:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP


funny you say that -- I just was reading an article this afternoon on devx.com about prototype and script-i-licious and I'm going to check it out 



----- Original Message ----
From: Jiju Thomas Mathew <lists at silmail.com>
To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2008 6:32:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP




On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:

 
So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because except for the redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
Though it is a bit off topic, I suggest that you use one of the available libraries out there, which will make things easier for you and make your code more cleaner. Starting from cba.js, to prototype.js there are a whole bunch

-- 
Jiju Thomas Mathew
Technology Officer, Saturn Systemwares Pvt Ltd
Gayathri, Technopark, Trivandrum, Kerala, India
Mob: 91 94470 47989 Tel : +91 471 3255001
http://www.saturn.in

Personal Technical Blog
http://www.php-trivandrum.org
-------------- next part --------------
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From brian at realm3.com  Fri Apr  4 10:01:14 2008
From: brian at realm3.com (Brian D.)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:01:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <473887.57017.qm@web50209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <473887.57017.qm@web50209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c7c53eda0804040701s7ec9b9b5i25750e4991055f2d@mail.gmail.com>

I highly recommend jQuery. I've used prototype/scriptaculous for a
while now but about three months ago I started working on a client's
project that was already using jQuery. I was sold on it and I
definitely plan on using it in the future.

http://docs.jquery.com/Ajax

- Brian D.

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:24 PM, Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> sorry, it's script.aculo.us and prototype
>
>
>
> here's the article:  http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/37574
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2008 6:37:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
>
>
> funny you say that -- I just was reading an article this afternoon on
> devx.com about prototype and script-i-licious and I'm going to check it out
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jiju Thomas Mathew <lists at silmail.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2008 6:32:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because except for
> the redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
> Though it is a bit off topic, I suggest that you use one of the available
> libraries out there, which will make things easier for you and make your
> code more cleaner. Starting from cba.js, to prototype.js there are a whole
> bunch
>
> --
> Jiju Thomas Mathew
> Technology Officer, Saturn Systemwares Pvt Ltd
> Gayathri, Technopark, Trivandrum, Kerala, India
> Mob: 91 94470 47989 Tel : +91 471 3255001
> http://www.saturn.in
>
> Personal Technical Blog
> http://www.php-trivandrum.org
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
freelance consulting, application development
(917) 512-3594


From codebowl at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 10:06:43 2008
From: codebowl at gmail.com (Joseph Crawford)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:06:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <c7c53eda0804040701s7ec9b9b5i25750e4991055f2d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <473887.57017.qm@web50209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<c7c53eda0804040701s7ec9b9b5i25750e4991055f2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1D2A414E-2883-4EB7-AC76-A2691C41086B@gmail.com>

XAJAX is also something worth looking into.

On Apr 4, 2008, at 10:01 AM, Brian D. wrote:

> I highly recommend jQuery. I've used prototype/scriptaculous for a
> while now but about three months ago I started working on a client's
> project that was already using jQuery. I was sold on it and I
> definitely plan on using it in the future.
>
> http://docs.jquery.com/Ajax
>
> - Brian D.
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:24 PM, Susan Shemin  
> <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> sorry, it's script.aculo.us and prototype
>>
>>
>>
>> here's the article:  http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/37574
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Susan Shemin <susan_shemin at yahoo.com>
>> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2008 6:37:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
>>
>>
>> funny you say that -- I just was reading an article this afternoon on
>> devx.com about prototype and script-i-licious and I'm going to  
>> check it out
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Jiju Thomas Mathew <lists at silmail.com>
>> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2008 6:32:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Susan Shemin  
>> <susan_shemin at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So I'm off to brush up on my Ajax and get it working, because  
>>> except for
>> the redirect, I can only see that Ajax will work.
>> Though it is a bit off topic, I suggest that you use one of the  
>> available
>> libraries out there, which will make things easier for you and make  
>> your
>> code more cleaner. Starting from cba.js, to prototype.js there are  
>> a whole
>> bunch
>>
>> --
>> Jiju Thomas Mathew
>> Technology Officer, Saturn Systemwares Pvt Ltd
>> Gayathri, Technopark, Trivandrum, Kerala, India
>> Mob: 91 94470 47989 Tel : +91 471 3255001
>> http://www.saturn.in
>>
>> Personal Technical Blog
>> http://www.php-trivandrum.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
> freelance consulting, application development
> (917) 512-3594
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From smanes at magpie.com  Fri Apr  4 10:14:32 2008
From: smanes at magpie.com (Steve Manes)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:14:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <1D2A414E-2883-4EB7-AC76-A2691C41086B@gmail.com>
References: <473887.57017.qm@web50209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<c7c53eda0804040701s7ec9b9b5i25750e4991055f2d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1D2A414E-2883-4EB7-AC76-A2691C41086B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F637C8.4060702@magpie.com>

Joseph Crawford wrote:
> XAJAX is also something worth looking into.

"Me Too" for Xajax.


From davehauenstein at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 10:43:14 2008
From: davehauenstein at gmail.com (David Hauenstein)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:43:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <47F637C8.4060702@magpie.com>
References: <473887.57017.qm@web50209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<c7c53eda0804040701s7ec9b9b5i25750e4991055f2d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1D2A414E-2883-4EB7-AC76-A2691C41086B@gmail.com>
	<47F637C8.4060702@magpie.com>
Message-ID: <5A3E6C48-6B03-49D2-819E-B93B88B2068A@gmail.com>

jQuery (http://jquery.com/) is the way to go with JS frameworks. I've  
used it extensively and even wrote a plugin (http://davehauenstein.com/blog/archives/28 
). But if you want to explore, i provided  list of some of the most  
popular JS frameworks. Have fun.

Some other good ones:
http://www.prototypejs.org/ along with http://script.aculo.us/
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/
http://extjs.com/
http://mootools.net/

-Dave Hauenstein


On Apr 4, 2008, at 10:14 AM, Steve Manes wrote:

> Joseph Crawford wrote:
>> XAJAX is also something worth looking into.
>
> "Me Too" for Xajax.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Apr  5 14:47:21 2008
From: paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk (PaulCheung)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:47:21 +0100
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
References: <000f01c892a3$2db28d60$0300a8c0@X9183><20080330220758.GA27670@panix.com>
	<p06240800c4169650e24b@[192.168.0.100]>
Message-ID: <000901c8974d$7b99eba0$0300a8c0@X9183>

Sorry Mate,

I lost it. I just cannot see what I'm doing wrong. All the coding before 
Datum is just working out the date. the following snippet is where I am 
trying to upload the Javascript data to the server.

Paul

Datum = ( +Year+ '/' +Month+ '/' +Day+ ' - ' +Hours+ ':' +Minutes+ ':' 
+Seconds);

var $datum = Datum;
new Image()).src = 'http://www.localhost/showdatum.php?$datum='+"$datum";

</SCRIPT>
<FORM action="showdatum.php" method="post">
<input type='text' name='$datum' size='20'><br>
</FORM>
</BODY>
</HTML>

showdatum.php
===========
<?PHP $datum = $_POST['$datum'];
echo('$datum = ' . $datum . "<BR>"); ?>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tedd" <tedd at sperling.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP


> At 6:07 PM -0400 3/30/08, Daniel Convissor wrote:
>>Hi Paul:
>>
>>On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 09:18:10PM +0100, PaulCheung wrote:
>>
>>>  The problem is I cannot transfer the Javascript variable needed in to 
>>> PHP.
>>
>>JavaScript is client side.  PHP is server side.  This has been discussed
>>on this list a couple times, and on the web too many times to count.
>>
>>You either need to submit the JS data to the server as part of a form or
>>via an AJAX request.
>>
>>--Dan
>
>
> --Dan:
>
> And don't forget this way:  :-)
>
> var a = 1;
> (new Image()).src = '/myscript.php?a='+ a;
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  5 15:21:41 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 12:21:41 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
Message-ID: <1207423301.23279@coral.he.net>

You are passing your date variable into a querystring instead of into 
the form.  Therefore when you POST your form, the value is not there 
for the server side to read.  Also I don't believe you should use $ 
characters in your form field names, which in any event won't pass in 
the date value.

try something like this:

<input type="text" name="dateholder" value="<? echo $datum ?>" size=20>

Change the input type to "hidden" after you are seeing the date is 
populating in the form.

-- Kristina

> Sorry Mate,
> 
> I lost it. I just cannot see what I'm doing wrong. All the coding 
before 
> Datum is just working out the date. the following snippet is where I 
am 
> trying to upload the Javascript data to the server.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Datum = ( +Year+ '/' +Month+ '/' +Day+ ' - ' +Hours+ ':' 
+Minutes+ ':' 
> +Seconds);
> 
> var $datum = Datum;
> new Image()).src = 'http://www.localhost/showdatum.php?
$datum='+"$datum";
> 
> </SCRIPT>
> <FORM action="showdatum.php" method="post">
> <input type='text' name='$datum' size='20'><br>
> </FORM>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
> 
> showdatum.php
> ===========
> <?PHP $datum = $_POST['$datum'];
> echo('$datum = ' . $datum . "<BR>"); ?>
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "tedd" <tedd at sperling.com>
> To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
> 
> 
> > At 6:07 PM -0400 3/30/08, Daniel Convissor wrote:
> >>Hi Paul:
> >>
> >>On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 09:18:10PM +0100, PaulCheung wrote:
> >>
> >>>  The problem is I cannot transfer the Javascript variable needed 
in to 
> >>> PHP.
> >>
> >>JavaScript is client side.  PHP is server side.  This has been 
discussed
> >>on this list a couple times, and on the web too many times to count.
> >>
> >>You either need to submit the JS data to the server as part of a 
form or
> >>via an AJAX request.
> >>
> >>--Dan
> >
> >
> > --Dan:
> >
> > And don't forget this way:  :-)
> >
> > var a = 1;
> > (new Image()).src = '/myscript.php?a='+ a;
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > tedd
> >
> > -- 
> > -------
> > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
http://earthstones.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
\


From rolan at omnistep.com  Sat Apr  5 17:14:01 2008
From: rolan at omnistep.com (Rolan Yang)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:14:01 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
In-Reply-To: <1207423301.23279@coral.he.net>
References: <1207423301.23279@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <47F7EB99.4090400@omnistep.com>

I'm see a lot of odd code in the past few posts. $'s mixed in with 
javascript and attempts to blend client side javascript variables with 
server side php variables. Misleading code that simply wont work.
Here's a working example for ya:

<html><head><title>test</title>
<script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
var date = new Date();
var d  = date.getDate();
var day = (d < 10) ? '0' + d : d;
var m = date.getMonth() + 1;
var month = (m < 10) ? '0' + m : m;
var yy = date.getYear();
var year = (yy < 1000) ? yy + 1900 : yy;
var hours = date.getHours();
var minutes = date.getMinutes();
var seconds = date.getSeconds();
if (minutes < 10) minutes = "0" + minutes;
if (seconds < 10) seconds = "0" + seconds;
var Datum = (year + "-" + month + "-" + day +' 
'+hours+':'+minutes+':'+seconds);
/* The below line submits the datetime as a GET request upon page load */
new Image().src = '/datetest.php?imgdate='+encodeURI(Datum);
</script>
</head>
<body>
clientdate=<?=$_REQUEST['clientdate']?><br>
<form method="post" action="" name="myform">
<!-- The line below sends the datetime upon form submit -->
<input type="hidden" name="clientdate" value="">
<input type="submit" onClick="document.myform.clientdate.value=Datum;">
</form>
</body>
</html>

The example sends the client date back to the server in 2 different ways.
The first is the img src method, which sends the data immediately after 
the page loads
the second is via the form in the hidden field.

~Rolan


From lists at nopersonal.info  Sat Apr  5 17:06:57 2008
From: lists at nopersonal.info (BAS)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:06:57 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F7E9F1.60101@nopersonal.info>

Jake McGraw wrote:
> Just read a recent review of some open source CMS software, may help
> in your search:
> 
> http://www.adobe.com/newsletters/edge/april2008/articles/article4/index.html?trackingid=CAFWA

Thanks, Jake--every review helps. The client accepted our estimate, so 
now I have to make a CMS choice. I installed Drupal & Joomla and am 
leaning heavily toward Drupal, but I have to do some more code exploring 
lest I end up in over my head.

Bev


From lists at nopersonal.info  Sat Apr  5 17:09:04 2008
From: lists at nopersonal.info (BAS)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:09:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net>
	<47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804031135p10bacc32hfacef5c48090a021@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F7EA70.10000@nopersonal.info>

Edward Potter wrote:
> Forget everything about building your own store, STOP!
> 
> Go to amazon, use their new software for store building. DOES
> EVERYTHING 10X  over.  Sigh, I'm out of business now.  14 years of
> building ecommerce sites, they finally caught up with me, I can't
> compete with them.  I guess that's a good thing.
> 
> :-)  ed
> 
> PS, hmmmmm, magento looks pretty cool however.
> 
> http://www.magentocommerce.com/

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the recommendations; I'll keep them in mind.

Regards.
Bev


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  5 17:29:26 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 14:29:26 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Passing JAVASCRIPT variables to PHP
Message-ID: <1207430966.10545@coral.he.net>

 Yes, that is exactly what I thought I meant to explain about the 
hidden form... you can't pass the date directly into a PHP variable!  
So you'd have to use document.form.value...

In my defense I have a horrible hangover...? :)



> I'm see a lot of odd code in the past few posts. $'s mixed in with 
> javascript and attempts to blend client side javascript variables 
with 
> server side php variables. Misleading code that simply wont work.
> Here's a working example for ya:
> 
> <html><head><title>test</title>
> <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
> var date = new Date();
> var d  = date.getDate();
> var day = (d < 10) ? '0' + d : d;
> var m = date.getMonth() + 1;
> var month = (m < 10) ? '0' + m : m;
> var yy = date.getYear();
> var year = (yy < 1000) ? yy + 1900 : yy;
> var hours = date.getHours();
> var minutes = date.getMinutes();
> var seconds = date.getSeconds();
> if (minutes < 10) minutes = "0" + minutes;
> if (seconds < 10) seconds = "0" + seconds;
> var Datum = (year + "-" + month + "-" + day +' 
> '+hours+':'+minutes+':'+seconds);
> /* The below line submits the datetime as a GET request upon page 
load */
> new Image().src = '/datetest.php?imgdate='+encodeURI(Datum);
> </script>
> </head>
> <body>
> clientdate=<?=$_REQUEST['clientdate']?><br>
> <form method="post" action="" name="myform">
> <!-- The line below sends the datetime upon form submit -->
> <input type="hidden" name="clientdate" value="">
> <input type="submit" 
onClick="document.myform.clientdate.value=Datum;">
> </form>
> </body>
> </html>
> 
> The example sends the client date back to the server in 2 different 
ways.
> The first is the img src method, which sends the data immediately 
after 
> the page loads
> the second is via the form in the hidden field.
> 
> ~Rolan
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com  Sat Apr  5 17:48:46 2008
From: joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com (Josh McCormack)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 17:48:46 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <47F7E9F1.60101@nopersonal.info>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F7E9F1.60101@nopersonal.info>
Message-ID: <e22ad7830804051448p5ff11ef9p3a513f37262ff2aa@mail.gmail.com>

I'd recommend finding some experienced person/agency to review your
plans and work as you go along, answering questions and keeping you
from making big mistakes. Maybe 5 hours a week.

My company does Drupal dev and would do this, but I'm just trying to
help, not pitch. So ask around, go to the local group meetings, etc
and try to find someone to help you have a easier time.

Josh


On 4/5/08, BAS <lists at nopersonal.info> wrote:
> Jake McGraw wrote:
> > Just read a recent review of some open source CMS software, may help
> > in your search:
> >
> >
> http://www.adobe.com/newsletters/edge/april2008/articles/article4/index.html?trackingid=CAFWA
>
> Thanks, Jake--every review helps. The client accepted our estimate, so
> now I have to make a CMS choice. I installed Drupal & Joomla and am
> leaning heavily toward Drupal, but I have to do some more code exploring
> lest I end up in over my head.
>
> Bev
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


-- 
Josh McCormack
Owner, InteractiveQA
Social Network Development & QA testing
http://www.interactiveqa.com
917.620.4902


From lists at nopersonal.info  Sat Apr  5 21:44:23 2008
From: lists at nopersonal.info (BAS)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 21:44:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <e22ad7830804051448p5ff11ef9p3a513f37262ff2aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net>
	<47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>	<47F7E9F1.60101@nopersonal.info>
	<e22ad7830804051448p5ff11ef9p3a513f37262ff2aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F82AF7.9020405@nopersonal.info>

Josh McCormack wrote:
> I'd recommend finding some experienced person/agency to review your
> plans and work as you go along, answering questions and keeping you
> from making big mistakes. Maybe 5 hours a week.
> 
> My company does Drupal dev and would do this, but I'm just trying to
> help, not pitch. So ask around, go to the local group meetings, etc
> and try to find someone to help you have a easier time.

Hi Josh,

That's certainly something I'll keep in mind, but I think I'll be okay 
in the long run. It's inevitable that I'll make some mistakes, but I've 
always learned the most when doing so (and I hope the folks here will be 
kind enough to help me if I get completely stuck).

I padded my estimated hours by about 20% to account for unforeseen 
issues, so (hopefully) that should give me sufficient wiggle room. I 
have no problem working additional non-billable hours on my own time for 
the sake of learning.

I'm hoping to be able to make it to the upcoming April 21st presentation 
and meet up with some of the locals.

Regards,
Bev


From joeleo724 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 10:15:34 2008
From: joeleo724 at gmail.com (Joe Leo)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 10:15:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
Message-ID: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I am trying to research about using website/data encryption methods or
approaches out there. Any tools that allows the web site data & db to be
encrypted. I've read about HTML protector (www.html-protector.com) - Anyone
use this type of tool?
What are the open source tools that can do this - if any? What are the
performance considerations? And, how would this type
of encrytion affect search engine rankings?

Would appreciate any comments/suggestions!

-joe
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From dcech at phpwerx.net  Sun Apr  6 10:43:51 2008
From: dcech at phpwerx.net (Dan Cech)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:43:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F8E1A7.9010605@phpwerx.net>

Joe Leo wrote:
> I am trying to research about using website/data encryption methods or
> approaches out there. Any tools that allows the web site data & db to be
> encrypted. I've read about HTML protector (www.html-protector.com) - Anyone
> use this type of tool?
> What are the open source tools that can do this - if any? What are the
> performance considerations? And, how would this type
> of encrytion affect search engine rankings?

Joe,

This is a fools errand, in order for a web browser to display your page 
it must be able to download the html and assets (images, css, etc).

I took a quick look at 'html-protector' and was less than impressed. 
The 'protection' consists of using javascript to write the page from an 
obfuscated string.  The 'password prompt' is javascript also, and the 
password is present in the source.

The cost of all this 'security'? The page is invisible to search engines 
and won't work at all for people with javascript disabled.

If you want to obfuscate your html you can certainly make it (slightly) 
more difficult for people to 'Save Page As...', but the html is always 
going to be out there.

Dan


From joeleo724 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 11:17:20 2008
From: joeleo724 at gmail.com (Joe Leo)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:17:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <47F8E1A7.9010605@phpwerx.net>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F8E1A7.9010605@phpwerx.net>
Message-ID: <799abcd40804060817i763c2b3dq21442ea84a8e5fe0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your reply and comments.... I am not so much looking to have data
encrypted from the user. But, encryption on the "server side".... For
example, I want to be able to
encrypt a web site folder and DB and upload to my hosting provider and know
the data is
safe but will continue to serve users as normal.

I just read about TrueCrypt (http://www.truecrypt.org/) which is Open
Source. This could be what I am looking for. Anyone use TrueCrypt?

Joe

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Dan Cech <dcech at phpwerx.net> wrote:

> Joe Leo wrote:
>
> > I am trying to research about using website/data encryption methods or
> > approaches out there. Any tools that allows the web site data & db to be
> > encrypted. I've read about HTML protector (www.html-protector.com) -
> > Anyone
> > use this type of tool?
> > What are the open source tools that can do this - if any? What are the
> > performance considerations? And, how would this type
> > of encrytion affect search engine rankings?
> >
>
> Joe,
>
> This is a fools errand, in order for a web browser to display your page it
> must be able to download the html and assets (images, css, etc).
>
> I took a quick look at 'html-protector' and was less than impressed. The
> 'protection' consists of using javascript to write the page from an
> obfuscated string.  The 'password prompt' is javascript also, and the
> password is present in the source.
>
> The cost of all this 'security'? The page is invisible to search engines
> and won't work at all for people with javascript disabled.
>
> If you want to obfuscate your html you can certainly make it (slightly)
> more difficult for people to 'Save Page As...', but the html is always going
> to be out there.
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
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From ben at projectskyline.com  Sun Apr  6 11:28:32 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:28:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804060817i763c2b3dq21442ea84a8e5fe0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>	<47F8E1A7.9010605@phpwerx.net>
	<799abcd40804060817i763c2b3dq21442ea84a8e5fe0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F8EC20.2030800@projectskyline.com>

Hello Joe,

Take a look at ionCube encoder. I use this and it works great.

- Ben

Joe Leo wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Thanks for your reply and comments.... I am not so much looking to 
> have data encrypted from the user. But, encryption on the "server 
> side".... For example, I want to be able to
> encrypt a web site folder and DB and upload to my hosting provider and 
> know the data is
> safe but will continue to serve users as normal.
>
> I just read about TrueCrypt (http://www.truecrypt.org/) which is Open 
> Source. This could be what I am looking for. Anyone use TrueCrypt?
>
> Joe
>
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Dan Cech <dcech at phpwerx.net 
> <mailto:dcech at phpwerx.net>> wrote:
>
>     Joe Leo wrote:
>
>         I am trying to research about using website/data encryption
>         methods or
>         approaches out there. Any tools that allows the web site data
>         & db to be
>         encrypted. I've read about HTML protector
>         (www.html-protector.com <http://www.html-protector.com>) - Anyone
>         use this type of tool?
>         What are the open source tools that can do this - if any? What
>         are the
>         performance considerations? And, how would this type
>         of encrytion affect search engine rankings?
>
>
>     Joe,
>
>     This is a fools errand, in order for a web browser to display your
>     page it must be able to download the html and assets (images, css,
>     etc).
>
>     I took a quick look at 'html-protector' and was less than
>     impressed. The 'protection' consists of using javascript to write
>     the page from an obfuscated string.  The 'password prompt' is
>     javascript also, and the password is present in the source.
>
>     The cost of all this 'security'? The page is invisible to search
>     engines and won't work at all for people with javascript disabled.
>
>     If you want to obfuscate your html you can certainly make it
>     (slightly) more difficult for people to 'Save Page As...', but the
>     html is always going to be out there.
>
>     Dan
>     _______________________________________________
>     New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>     http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>     NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>     http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>     Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>     http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php


From ramons at gmx.net  Sun Apr  6 11:31:18 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:31:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804060817i763c2b3dq21442ea84a8e5fe0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>	<47F8E1A7.9010605@phpwerx.net>
	<799abcd40804060817i763c2b3dq21442ea84a8e5fe0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F8ECC6.3080004@gmx.net>

Joe Leo wrote:
> Hi Dan,
> 
> Thanks for your reply and comments.... I am not so much looking to have 
> data encrypted from the user. But, encryption on the "server side".... 
> For example, I want to be able to
> encrypt a web site folder and DB and upload to my hosting provider and 
> know the data is
> safe but will continue to serve users as normal.
> 
> I just read about TrueCrypt (http://www.truecrypt.org/) which is Open 
> Source. This could be what I am looking for. Anyone use TrueCrypt?

Well, you could wrap everything into PHP and use one of these PHP obfuscators. 
I haven't heard about encrypting the entire database, but you can for sure put 
some encryption on some fields (I wouldn't bother with an autoinc field).
Still, I wonder why you want to do that? Do you distrust your hosting company 
that much? In that case I'd look for a different provider.

David


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Sun Apr  6 11:46:51 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:46:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>

Joe:

On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 10:15:34AM -0400, Joe Leo wrote:
> 
> I am trying to research about using website/data encryption methods

What are you trying to protect and who are you protecting it against?  

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Sun Apr  6 12:05:50 2008
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:05:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <47F82AF7.9020405@nopersonal.info>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net> <47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>
	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F7E9F1.60101@nopersonal.info>
	<e22ad7830804051448p5ff11ef9p3a513f37262ff2aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F82AF7.9020405@nopersonal.info>
Message-ID: <010501c89800$158f8b90$ae00a8c0@ERTop>

Have you seen this CMS http://www.modxcms.com/ I've used it a few times, I
like it.

ER

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of BAS
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 9:44 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours

Josh McCormack wrote:
> I'd recommend finding some experienced person/agency to review your
> plans and work as you go along, answering questions and keeping you
> from making big mistakes. Maybe 5 hours a week.
> 
> My company does Drupal dev and would do this, but I'm just trying to
> help, not pitch. So ask around, go to the local group meetings, etc
> and try to find someone to help you have a easier time.

Hi Josh,

That's certainly something I'll keep in mind, but I think I'll be okay 
in the long run. It's inevitable that I'll make some mistakes, but I've 
always learned the most when doing so (and I hope the folks here will be 
kind enough to help me if I get completely stuck).

I padded my estimated hours by about 20% to account for unforeseen 
issues, so (hopefully) that should give me sufficient wiggle room. I 
have no problem working additional non-billable hours on my own time for 
the sake of learning.

I'm hoping to be able to make it to the upcoming April 21st presentation 
and meet up with some of the locals.

Regards,
Bev
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From joeleo724 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 12:29:54 2008
From: joeleo724 at gmail.com (Joe Leo)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:29:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
Message-ID: <799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Well, you could wrap everything into PHP and use one of these PHP
> obfuscators.

Well, I am not much of a php/programmer and don't know how and what it means
to "wrap everything into php".

Still, I wonder why you want to do that? Do you distrust your hosting
> company that much? In that case I'd look for a different provider.


Well, I am just looking into a solutions to encrypt data. The question as to
why I would want to do that is not the question - But, thanks for asking.

What are you trying to protect and who are you protecting it against?


I'm looking to protect data/information that could be the software code
and/or customer's client info.. Protection should be from anyone who does
not need to have access to the website data or the DB... Of course, data
will be shown to users (web client) who has been given access to view this
data from the application.

What I am interested in is to find the most effective and most secure way to
upload my website & db to remote host and the data is fully protected by
encryption.

I will look into the ionCube suggested earlier - Though this seems to be a
PHP only base solution. From what I gather, a product like TrueCrypt could
be better as I can encrypt an entire volume or folder and it's done -
Regardless of type of code or application that exist or being encrypted.

I know many software type companies package there software where either
partially or fully the code is encrypted and protected. This is the similar
type of solution I guess I am looking for.

joe

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Daniel Convissor <
danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:

> Joe:
>
> On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 10:15:34AM -0400, Joe Leo wrote:
> >
> > I am trying to research about using website/data encryption methods
>
> What are you trying to protect and who are you protecting it against?
>
> --Dan
>
> --
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>            data intensive web and database programming
>                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
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From rolan at omnistep.com  Sun Apr  6 14:28:14 2008
From: rolan at omnistep.com (Rolan Yang)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:28:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F9163E.2080301@omnistep.com>

Joe Leo wrote:
>
>
>     Still, I wonder why you want to do that? Do you distrust your
>     hosting company that much? In that case I'd look for a different
>     provider.
>
>
> Well, I am just looking into a solutions to encrypt data. The question 
> as to why I would want to do that is not the question - But, thanks 
> for asking.
>
>     What are you trying to protect and who are you protecting it against?
>
>
> I'm looking to protect data/information that could be the software 
> code and/or customer's client info.. Protection should be from anyone 
> who does not need to have access to the website data or the DB... Of 
> course, data will be shown to users (web client) who has been given 
> access to view this data from the application.
>
> What I am interested in is to find the most effective and most secure 
> way to upload my website & db to remote host and the data is fully 
> protected by encryption.
>
> I will look into the ionCube suggested earlier - Though this seems to 
> be a PHP only base solution. From what I gather, a product like 
> TrueCrypt could be better as I can encrypt an entire volume or folder 
> and it's done - Regardless of type of code or application that exist 
> or being encrypted.
>


I think there's a little bit of shortsightedness going on here. If any 
reasonable security is to be expected, the entire system from start to 
finish must be evaluated. How much security do you expect? Who and what 
do you trust to be secure? Is your development PC secure? Could it be 
loaded with spyware that is sending your keystrokes off to the bad guys? 
Do you trust the guy/girl standing behind you looking over your 
shoulder? Do you trust the web host that manages your website's server? 
How about the server monkey managing the nightly backups? Or the hacker 
on your shared web host running the sniffer? Or the 13 year old from 
Hungary secretly running irc proxies on your dedicated host? Or the 
NSA's tap at AT&T's networks?  Could your client/customer's PC be 
infected with spyware? Could their neighbor be running a 
man-in-the-middle attack on the wireless network?  How about the guy 
physically standing behind him, or perhaps the nosy wife digging through 
her husbands Gmail account? My point here is that there are so many 
points at which the security of data could be compromised. Dan's 
question is extremely relevant and should be examined thoroughly if the 
true objective is to implement data security.

Unfortunately, for most people (including our government), the 
perception of security takes priority over actual security. Slapping an 
official looking "seal of security" gif on to the bottom of the web 
order form and maybe prepending "https" to the URL (regardless of what's 
running under the hood!) is often sufficient for the general population.

~Rolan














From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Sun Apr  6 13:38:35 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:38:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080406173835.GA8424@panix.com>

Hi Joe:

> I'm looking to protect data/information that could be the software code
> and/or customer's client info.. Protection should be from anyone who does
> not need to have access to the website data or the DB.

This is done by protecting access to the servers.

Encrypting the information is pointless because the data needs to be 
decrypted in order to be served to the viewers.

So, for example, you're talking about using TrueCrypt.  While that's a 
great tool, it doesn't accomplish anything for your purposes, because the 
volume will have to be mounted (decrypted) in order to serve it.  Once 
the volume is mounted, anyone with access to the server can read it.

If you're thinking of dynamically decrypting scripts, data, etc, on the 
fly, you'll need to have the keys and passwords stored on the server.  
Therefore anyone can use those to decrypt the stuff too.

It all comes down to server security.  This includes things like using 
encrypted means to access the machine and move files to/from it (SSH, 
SFTP, etc), keeping the software up to date, running firewalls, etc.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ramons at gmx.net  Sun Apr  6 17:09:28 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 17:09:28 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>

Joe Leo wrote:
>     Well, you could wrap everything into PHP and use one of these PHP
>     obfuscators.
> 
> Well, I am not much of a php/programmer and don't know how and what it 
> means to "wrap everything into php".

I mean that you need to use PHP to output static page content if you want to 
encode / obfuscate everything.

>     Still, I wonder why you want to do that? Do you distrust your
>     hosting company that much? In that case I'd look for a different
>     provider.
> 
> 
> Well, I am just looking into a solutions to encrypt data. The question 
> as to why I would want to do that is not the question - But, thanks for 
> asking.

Well, the reason for me asking is that there may be a better approach than 
taking the big hammer. I speak from experience as I often use(d) the big 
hammer and everything was a nail.


>     What are you trying to protect and who are you protecting it against?
> 
> I'm looking to protect data/information that could be the software code 
> and/or customer's client info.. Protection should be from anyone who 
> does not need to have access to the website data or the DB... Of course, 
> data will be shown to users (web client) who has been given access to 
> view this data from the application.

So who is your hoster? Every thought about self-hosting or having the customer 
run the server? Any chance that this might work via intranet rather than 
internet, because then you probably want to add SSL to the pages. I do not 
know if that is difficult to do. But keep in mind, anything that is accessible 
via internet is not what I'd consider entirely secure.
I don't see why you need to protect the software code. PHP is server side only 
and the client doesn't see anything from your PHP code.
And yes, it is assumed that legitimate users are allowed to see information, 
otherwise the whole setup would be quite pointless.

> What I am interested in is to find the most effective and most secure 
> way to upload my website & db to remote host and the data is fully 
> protected by encryption.

As mentioned above, hosting something offsite and have it be available through 
the internet is IMHO not secure. Taking stuff can be made more difficult, but 
most secure....well, I leave that up to the experts, but I have my doubts - 
see Hannaford, TJX, etc.

> I will look into the ionCube suggested earlier - Though this seems to be 
> a PHP only base solution. From what I gather, a product like TrueCrypt 
> could be better as I can encrypt an entire volume or folder and it's 
> done - Regardless of type of code or application that exist or being 
> encrypted.

Again, comes down to the hosting service that you have. Do you have that much 
access and rights to the server that you can just go ahead and run services 
that encrypt and decrypt entire folders?

> 
> I know many software type companies package there software where either 
> partially or fully the code is encrypted and protected. This is the 
> similar type of solution I guess I am looking for.

Nah, most companies distribute binaries that make it difficult enough for 
people like me to re-engineer the code. But look at the open source security 
applications. Their code is freely available. Security through obscurity is 
one of the worst approaches.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but taking into account that you are "not 
much of a php/programmer" you may want to take a step back and think this over 
if that application is indeed that critical and demands such secrecy that code 
and database have to be encrypted. I play around with PHP for about five years 
now and I don't think that I'd be capable of writing a secure application. I'm 
not saying that you are not capable of that, but I have the impression that 
you think slapping some encryption onto something makes it secure.
I am also wondering a bit about your statement that you want "to find the most 
effective and most secure way to upload my website & db to remote host". So 
are you worried about encryption during uploading or about encryption while 
executing the scripts on the server and serving up content - or both? What 
other security measures did you include? Kaptchas? Multiple time-limited 
passwords? Multiple access levels? Effective session management to kick people 
out of the system after a few minutes of inactivity? Or even other means such 
as biometrics as identification? Your own certificate?
Also, does it have to be a web client? I'd guess there are way more and way 
better means to encrypt data when working with fat clients. Also, which 
database engine do you plan to use? Does that database engine have means to 
encrypt entire tables or data sets?
And what do you do for client security? There is not much gained when your 
server is like Fort Knox, but the users can access the application from any 
client on any network and then do so from theit favourite internet cafe, 
leaving the PC unattended while getting another beer. So you want to at least 
restrict the IP address (ranges) that are allowed to get even to the login page.

Sorry for asking that many questions, but I think those and many more 
questions need to be asked and sufficiently answered.

David


From joeleo724 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 19:12:25 2008
From: joeleo724 at gmail.com (Joe Leo)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:12:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, I really appreciate the feedback and some of the many comments i am
getting to my original question. I ask my original question not so much I
have some secrecy of any kind of application. As I mentioned, I'm not much
of a programmer in practice. I'm just getting interest in the encryption
technology as a whole and since I have not really used any of them I wanted
to get an idea how effective they are.

Now the feedback with the questions and comments I am getting are good, in
that, they make me think why would I use it and to achieve what purpose.
What I've been hoping to gain from asking my question is then why & when to
use such encryption tool - especially, when hosting your data remotely by a
hosting provider.

My thought is if encryption techniques like TrueCrypt works - Why not use it
regardless who is your hosting provider. Or, having to consider questions
like who you trying to protect data from. I mean, when you buy a nice bran
new expensive car you have a key to lock the doors and some go further to
put in a car alarm or car tracking device. Who you're trying to prevent from
stealing your car is no brainer question to consider - IMO. One knows that
locking the door and/or having a car alarm is a deterrent - Though not 100%
guaranteed. Maybe my example is not the best but just trying to raise a
point.

In my question to deploy some encryption on my data would (help) minimize
people stealing private data - Why not use it, especially if there's not
much performance penalty.

David, regarding you comments below:

> So are you worried about encryption during uploading or about encryption
> while executing the scripts on the server and serving up content - or both?
> What other security measures did you include?


You've hit the right questions I am looking to understand. The answer is
both. From what I understand about a tool like TrueCrypt I can encrypt say
my webfolder (web site) and upload it to my hosting provider. And, what I am
trying to understand is can the encrypted data remain encrypted and still
serve content. Or, once I upload the encrypted data must I need to decrypt
it to serve the content? I am not concern about data being encrypted out to
the users browser. SSL takes care of that - right? So, if it is that I can
encrypt and it remains encrypt while serving content then this is not a bad
solution. And, of course one can take other measures like ssh to the server
to actually keep access to it secure.

joe











On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 5:09 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:

> Joe Leo wrote:
>
> >    Well, you could wrap everything into PHP and use one of these PHP
> >    obfuscators.
> >
> > Well, I am not much of a php/programmer and don't know how and what it
> > means to "wrap everything into php".
> >
>
> I mean that you need to use PHP to output static page content if you want
> to encode / obfuscate everything.
>
>     Still, I wonder why you want to do that? Do you distrust your
> >    hosting company that much? In that case I'd look for a different
> >    provider.
> >
> >
> > Well, I am just looking into a solutions to encrypt data. The question
> > as to why I would want to do that is not the question - But, thanks for
> > asking.
> >
>
> Well, the reason for me asking is that there may be a better approach than
> taking the big hammer. I speak from experience as I often use(d) the big
> hammer and everything was a nail.
>
>
>     What are you trying to protect and who are you protecting it against?
> >
> > I'm looking to protect data/information that could be the software code
> > and/or customer's client info.. Protection should be from anyone who does
> > not need to have access to the website data or the DB... Of course, data
> > will be shown to users (web client) who has been given access to view this
> > data from the application.
> >
>
> So who is your hoster? Every thought about self-hosting or having the
> customer run the server? Any chance that this might work via intranet rather
> than internet, because then you probably want to add SSL to the pages. I do
> not know if that is difficult to do. But keep in mind, anything that is
> accessible via internet is not what I'd consider entirely secure.
> I don't see why you need to protect the software code. PHP is server side
> only and the client doesn't see anything from your PHP code.
> And yes, it is assumed that legitimate users are allowed to see
> information, otherwise the whole setup would be quite pointless.
>
>  What I am interested in is to find the most effective and most secure way
> > to upload my website & db to remote host and the data is fully protected by
> > encryption.
> >
>
> As mentioned above, hosting something offsite and have it be available
> through the internet is IMHO not secure. Taking stuff can be made more
> difficult, but most secure....well, I leave that up to the experts, but I
> have my doubts - see Hannaford, TJX, etc.
>
>  I will look into the ionCube suggested earlier - Though this seems to be
> > a PHP only base solution. From what I gather, a product like TrueCrypt could
> > be better as I can encrypt an entire volume or folder and it's done -
> > Regardless of type of code or application that exist or being encrypted.
> >
>
> Again, comes down to the hosting service that you have. Do you have that
> much access and rights to the server that you can just go ahead and run
> services that encrypt and decrypt entire folders?
>
>
> > I know many software type companies package there software where either
> > partially or fully the code is encrypted and protected. This is the similar
> > type of solution I guess I am looking for.
> >
>
> Nah, most companies distribute binaries that make it difficult enough for
> people like me to re-engineer the code. But look at the open source security
> applications. Their code is freely available. Security through obscurity is
> one of the worst approaches.
>
> I don't want to rain on your parade, but taking into account that you are
> "not much of a php/programmer" you may want to take a step back and think
> this over if that application is indeed that critical and demands such
> secrecy that code and database have to be encrypted. I play around with PHP
> for about five years now and I don't think that I'd be capable of writing a
> secure application. I'm not saying that you are not capable of that, but I
> have the impression that you think slapping some encryption onto something
> makes it secure.
> I am also wondering a bit about your statement that you want "to find the
> most effective and most secure way to upload my website & db to remote
> host". So are you worried about encryption during uploading or about
> encryption while executing the scripts on the server and serving up content
> - or both? What other security measures did you include? Kaptchas? Multiple
> time-limited passwords? Multiple access levels? Effective session management
> to kick people out of the system after a few minutes of inactivity? Or even
> other means such as biometrics as identification? Your own certificate?
> Also, does it have to be a web client? I'd guess there are way more and
> way better means to encrypt data when working with fat clients. Also, which
> database engine do you plan to use? Does that database engine have means to
> encrypt entire tables or data sets?
> And what do you do for client security? There is not much gained when your
> server is like Fort Knox, but the users can access the application from any
> client on any network and then do so from theit favourite internet cafe,
> leaving the PC unattended while getting another beer. So you want to at
> least restrict the IP address (ranges) that are allowed to get even to the
> login page.
>
> Sorry for asking that many questions, but I think those and many more
> questions need to be asked and sufficiently answered.
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
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From lists at nopersonal.info  Sun Apr  6 20:00:31 2008
From: lists at nopersonal.info (BAS)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:00:31 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] CMS - Estimating Hours
In-Reply-To: <010501c89800$158f8b90$ae00a8c0@ERTop>
References: <1206738614.27142@coral.he.net>
	<47EDEBB2.9090408@nopersonal.info>	<e065b8610804030603g35cedd71nfcfa1543fa583d08@mail.gmail.com>	<47F7E9F1.60101@nopersonal.info>	<e22ad7830804051448p5ff11ef9p3a513f37262ff2aa@mail.gmail.com>	<47F82AF7.9020405@nopersonal.info>
	<010501c89800$158f8b90$ae00a8c0@ERTop>
Message-ID: <47F9641F.2010404@nopersonal.info>

Edgar Reyes wrote:
> Have you seen this CMS http://www.modxcms.com/ I've used it a few times, I
> like it.

No, I haven't seen it, but I'll check it out. Thanks, Edgar.


From joeleo724 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 20:14:34 2008
From: joeleo724 at gmail.com (Joe Leo)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:14:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>
	<799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <799abcd40804061714qc717d52jfe5693bcd0f3092e@mail.gmail.com>

Here's another thought I wonder about encryption technology. Could one day
encryption technology replace the need for firewalls - either partially or
all together. Forget about those security policies, is my firewall
configured right, applying security patches & hardening the OS, etc... If
one can just encrypt there entire drive or the data needed to be protected
by encryption - Why need a fw if the data is garbled and useless to those
who can't decrypt it. Of course fw plays other roles but from a pure
"protect my data from the unwanted" to me encryption may solve that. Just a
thought!

Joe

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Joe Leo <joeleo724 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow, I really appreciate the feedback and some of the many comments i am
> getting to my original question. I ask my original question not so much I
> have some secrecy of any kind of application. As I mentioned, I'm not much
> of a programmer in practice. I'm just getting interest in the encryption
> technology as a whole and since I have not really used any of them I wanted
> to get an idea how effective they are.
>
> Now the feedback with the questions and comments I am getting are good, in
> that, they make me think why would I use it and to achieve what purpose.
> What I've been hoping to gain from asking my question is then why & when to
> use such encryption tool - especially, when hosting your data remotely by a
> hosting provider.
>
> My thought is if encryption techniques like TrueCrypt works - Why not use
> it regardless who is your hosting provider. Or, having to consider questions
> like who you trying to protect data from. I mean, when you buy a nice bran
> new expensive car you have a key to lock the doors and some go further to
> put in a car alarm or car tracking device. Who you're trying to prevent from
> stealing your car is no brainer question to consider - IMO. One knows that
> locking the door and/or having a car alarm is a deterrent - Though not 100%
> guaranteed. Maybe my example is not the best but just trying to raise a
> point.
>
> In my question to deploy some encryption on my data would (help) minimize
> people stealing private data - Why not use it, especially if there's not
> much performance penalty.
>
> David, regarding you comments below:
>
> > So are you worried about encryption during uploading or about encryption
> > while executing the scripts on the server and serving up content - or both?
> > What other security measures did you include?
>
>
> You've hit the right questions I am looking to understand. The answer is
> both. From what I understand about a tool like TrueCrypt I can encrypt say
> my webfolder (web site) and upload it to my hosting provider. And, what I am
> trying to understand is can the encrypted data remain encrypted and still
> serve content. Or, once I upload the encrypted data must I need to decrypt
> it to serve the content? I am not concern about data being encrypted out to
> the users browser. SSL takes care of that - right? So, if it is that I can
> encrypt and it remains encrypt while serving content then this is not a bad
> solution. And, of course one can take other measures like ssh to the server
> to actually keep access to it secure.
>
> joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 5:09 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > Joe Leo wrote:
> >
> > >    Well, you could wrap everything into PHP and use one of these PHP
> > >    obfuscators.
> > >
> > > Well, I am not much of a php/programmer and don't know how and what it
> > > means to "wrap everything into php".
> > >
> >
> > I mean that you need to use PHP to output static page content if you
> > want to encode / obfuscate everything.
> >
> >     Still, I wonder why you want to do that? Do you distrust your
> > >    hosting company that much? In that case I'd look for a different
> > >    provider.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, I am just looking into a solutions to encrypt data. The question
> > > as to why I would want to do that is not the question - But, thanks for
> > > asking.
> > >
> >
> > Well, the reason for me asking is that there may be a better approach
> > than taking the big hammer. I speak from experience as I often use(d) the
> > big hammer and everything was a nail.
> >
> >
> >     What are you trying to protect and who are you protecting it
> > > against?
> > >
> > > I'm looking to protect data/information that could be the software
> > > code and/or customer's client info.. Protection should be from anyone who
> > > does not need to have access to the website data or the DB... Of course,
> > > data will be shown to users (web client) who has been given access to view
> > > this data from the application.
> > >
> >
> > So who is your hoster? Every thought about self-hosting or having the
> > customer run the server? Any chance that this might work via intranet rather
> > than internet, because then you probably want to add SSL to the pages. I do
> > not know if that is difficult to do. But keep in mind, anything that is
> > accessible via internet is not what I'd consider entirely secure.
> > I don't see why you need to protect the software code. PHP is server
> > side only and the client doesn't see anything from your PHP code.
> > And yes, it is assumed that legitimate users are allowed to see
> > information, otherwise the whole setup would be quite pointless.
> >
> >  What I am interested in is to find the most effective and most secure
> > > way to upload my website & db to remote host and the data is fully protected
> > > by encryption.
> > >
> >
> > As mentioned above, hosting something offsite and have it be available
> > through the internet is IMHO not secure. Taking stuff can be made more
> > difficult, but most secure....well, I leave that up to the experts, but I
> > have my doubts - see Hannaford, TJX, etc.
> >
> >  I will look into the ionCube suggested earlier - Though this seems to
> > > be a PHP only base solution. From what I gather, a product like TrueCrypt
> > > could be better as I can encrypt an entire volume or folder and it's done -
> > > Regardless of type of code or application that exist or being encrypted.
> > >
> >
> > Again, comes down to the hosting service that you have. Do you have that
> > much access and rights to the server that you can just go ahead and run
> > services that encrypt and decrypt entire folders?
> >
> >
> > > I know many software type companies package there software where
> > > either partially or fully the code is encrypted and protected. This is the
> > > similar type of solution I guess I am looking for.
> > >
> >
> > Nah, most companies distribute binaries that make it difficult enough
> > for people like me to re-engineer the code. But look at the open source
> > security applications. Their code is freely available. Security through
> > obscurity is one of the worst approaches.
> >
> > I don't want to rain on your parade, but taking into account that you
> > are "not much of a php/programmer" you may want to take a step back and
> > think this over if that application is indeed that critical and demands such
> > secrecy that code and database have to be encrypted. I play around with PHP
> > for about five years now and I don't think that I'd be capable of writing a
> > secure application. I'm not saying that you are not capable of that, but I
> > have the impression that you think slapping some encryption onto something
> > makes it secure.
> > I am also wondering a bit about your statement that you want "to find
> > the most effective and most secure way to upload my website & db to remote
> > host". So are you worried about encryption during uploading or about
> > encryption while executing the scripts on the server and serving up content
> > - or both? What other security measures did you include? Kaptchas? Multiple
> > time-limited passwords? Multiple access levels? Effective session management
> > to kick people out of the system after a few minutes of inactivity? Or even
> > other means such as biometrics as identification? Your own certificate?
> > Also, does it have to be a web client? I'd guess there are way more and
> > way better means to encrypt data when working with fat clients. Also, which
> > database engine do you plan to use? Does that database engine have means to
> > encrypt entire tables or data sets?
> > And what do you do for client security? There is not much gained when
> > your server is like Fort Knox, but the users can access the application from
> > any client on any network and then do so from theit favourite internet cafe,
> > leaving the PC unattended while getting another beer. So you want to at
> > least restrict the IP address (ranges) that are allowed to get even to the
> > login page.
> >
> > Sorry for asking that many questions, but I think those and many more
> > questions need to be asked and sufficiently answered.
> >
> > David
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
>
>
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From tim_lists at o2group.com  Sun Apr  6 20:33:08 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:33:08 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>	<47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>
	<799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F96BC4.1090409@o2group.com>

Joe Leo wrote:
> You've hit the right questions I am looking to understand. The answer 
> is both. From what I understand about a tool like TrueCrypt I can 
> encrypt say my webfolder (web site) and upload it to my hosting 
> provider. And, what I am trying to understand is can the encrypted 
> data remain encrypted and still serve content. Or, once I upload the 
> encrypted data must I need to decrypt it to serve the content? I am 
> not concern about data being encrypted out to the users browser. SSL 
> takes care of that - right? So, if it is that I can encrypt and it 
> remains encrypt while serving content then this is not a bad solution. 
> And, of course one can take other measures like ssh to the server to 
> actually keep access to it secure.
In 99% of cases, there's no real argument for storing data on the server 
in an encrypted state.  This is because if your host security is 
compromised, the cracker will have your encryption keys as well as your 
encryption data.

Communicating with server (Administration, Uploading files, etc):  
SSH/SFTP. 

Data On The Server: Usually there is no good argument for encrypting 
it.  If you're going to be serving it to anyone, you'll need to decrypt 
it on the way out, so they can read it.  If the server can decrypt it, 
anyone who compromises the server can decrypt it, so it's useless and a 
waste of resources.

Server Communicating with Clients: use SSL.


The exception case:  You have a small group of users, to whom you want 
to make available some very secret data.  You don't want to do any 
processing of the data on the server.  You just want to upload an 
encrypted file, and have them download it (still encrypted).  This of 
course implies that you've somehow securely distributed the decryption 
key to your users.  This case almost never happens.  You'd be better off 
having your users generate GPG key pairs, send you the public key.  You 
encrypt for each user and send via email or any other method.  By 
leveraging public-key cryptography, you avoid the need to securely 
communicate any keys.

As others have implied, it would be a lot easier to answer your queries 
if we knew more specifics about what kind of data (and what kind of 
operations on that data) you're talking about.

But in almost every case, encrypting things on the server just chews up 
server resources while providing exactly zero protection.

-Tim



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Sun Apr  6 20:41:31 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:41:31 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804061714qc717d52jfe5693bcd0f3092e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>	<47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>	<799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
	<799abcd40804061714qc717d52jfe5693bcd0f3092e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F96DBB.8020202@o2group.com>

Sure, as I mentioned in part of my last email, in some (few) cases this 
is fine.

That case is this:

    - I Have a bunch of secret data, in a file called "secrets.zip".
    - I encrypt that data with some strong encryption mechanism. 
    - I post that file on http://www.example.com/secrets.zip.gpg -- it 
is world readable.
    - I meet you in a dark alley, we exchange a secret handshake and 
password.  I hand you a thumb drive with the encryption key for the 
data.  (repeat for each person i want to give the key to)
    - You go download the data and decrypt it.

This is only marginally better than me giving you the data itself on the 
thumb drive, as it saves me future trips to the scary alley.

If we use public-key cryptography, we can do away with the meeting in 
the alley, though then I'd have to make a version of the encrypted file 
for each recipient.

Firewalls are always going to be a fact of life, though they aren't 
really necessary in any way relevant to the above scenario.  Well, at 
least for the server that's serving the files..  Of course, if your 
machine where you're doing the decrypting is compromised, then the 
hacker gets your key. Then they can go download the data from anywhere 
and decrypt at will.

At the end of the day, encrypted data is useless unless at some point it 
gets decrypted.  Any machine that will do the decryption (and therefore, 
even momentarily, hold a copy of the key and/or the unencrypted data) 
needs to be suitably secured. 

A machine that's *only* purpose is to hold the data in encrypted form 
you could probably care less about.  Unless it's the ONLY place where 
the data is stored, in which case a malicious individual could destroy 
your data, even if they can't steal it.

-Tim


Joe Leo wrote:
> Here's another thought I wonder about encryption technology. Could one 
> day encryption technology replace the need for firewalls - either 
> partially or all together. Forget about those security policies, is my 
> firewall configured right, applying security patches & hardening the 
> OS, etc... If one can just encrypt there entire drive or the data 
> needed to be protected by encryption - Why need a fw if the data is 
> garbled and useless to those who can't decrypt it. Of course fw plays 
> other roles but from a pure "protect my data from the unwanted" to me 
> encryption may solve that. Just a thought!
>
> Joe
>
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Joe Leo <joeleo724 at gmail.com 
> <mailto:joeleo724 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Wow, I really appreciate the feedback and some of the many
>     comments i am getting to my original question. I ask my original
>     question not so much I have some secrecy of any kind of
>     application. As I mentioned, I'm not much of a programmer in
>     practice. I'm just getting interest in the encryption technology
>     as a whole and since I have not really used any of them I wanted
>     to get an idea how effective they are.
>
>     Now the feedback with the questions and comments I am getting are
>     good, in that, they make me think why would I use it and to
>     achieve what purpose. What I've been hoping to gain from asking my
>     question is then why & when to use such encryption tool -
>     especially, when hosting your data remotely by a hosting provider.
>
>     My thought is if encryption techniques like TrueCrypt works - Why
>     not use it regardless who is your hosting provider. Or, having to
>     consider questions like who you trying to protect data from. I
>     mean, when you buy a nice bran new expensive car you have a key to
>     lock the doors and some go further to put in a car alarm or car
>     tracking device. Who you're trying to prevent from stealing your
>     car is no brainer question to consider - IMO. One knows that
>     locking the door and/or having a car alarm is a deterrent - Though
>     not 100% guaranteed. Maybe my example is not the best but just
>     trying to raise a point.
>
>     In my question to deploy some encryption on my data would (help)
>     minimize people stealing private data - Why not use it, especially
>     if there's not much performance penalty.
>
>     David, regarding you comments below:
>
>         So are you worried about encryption during uploading or about
>         encryption while executing the scripts on the server and
>         serving up content - or both? What other security measures did
>         you include?
>
>
>     You've hit the right questions I am looking to understand. The
>     answer is both. From what I understand about a tool like TrueCrypt
>     I can encrypt say my webfolder (web site) and upload it to my
>     hosting provider. And, what I am trying to understand is can the
>     encrypted data remain encrypted and still serve content. Or, once
>     I upload the encrypted data must I need to decrypt it to serve the
>     content? I am not concern about data being encrypted out to the
>     users browser. SSL takes care of that - right? So, if it is that I
>     can encrypt and it remains encrypt while serving content then this
>     is not a bad solution. And, of course one can take other measures
>     like ssh to the server to actually keep access to it secure.
>
>     joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 5:09 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net
>     <mailto:ramons at gmx.net>> wrote:
>
>         Joe Leo wrote:
>
>                Well, you could wrap everything into PHP and use one of
>             these PHP
>                obfuscators.
>
>             Well, I am not much of a php/programmer and don't know how
>             and what it means to "wrap everything into php".
>
>
>         I mean that you need to use PHP to output static page content
>         if you want to encode / obfuscate everything.
>
>
>                Still, I wonder why you want to do that? Do you
>             distrust your
>                hosting company that much? In that case I'd look for a
>             different
>                provider.
>
>
>             Well, I am just looking into a solutions to encrypt data.
>             The question as to why I would want to do that is not the
>             question - But, thanks for asking.
>
>
>         Well, the reason for me asking is that there may be a better
>         approach than taking the big hammer. I speak from experience
>         as I often use(d) the big hammer and everything was a nail.
>
>
>
>                What are you trying to protect and who are you
>             protecting it against?
>
>             I'm looking to protect data/information that could be the
>             software code and/or customer's client info.. Protection
>             should be from anyone who does not need to have access to
>             the website data or the DB... Of course, data will be
>             shown to users (web client) who has been given access to
>             view this data from the application.
>
>
>         So who is your hoster? Every thought about self-hosting or
>         having the customer run the server? Any chance that this might
>         work via intranet rather than internet, because then you
>         probably want to add SSL to the pages. I do not know if that
>         is difficult to do. But keep in mind, anything that is
>         accessible via internet is not what I'd consider entirely secure.
>         I don't see why you need to protect the software code. PHP is
>         server side only and the client doesn't see anything from your
>         PHP code.
>         And yes, it is assumed that legitimate users are allowed to
>         see information, otherwise the whole setup would be quite
>         pointless.
>
>
>             What I am interested in is to find the most effective and
>             most secure way to upload my website & db to remote host
>             and the data is fully protected by encryption.
>
>
>         As mentioned above, hosting something offsite and have it be
>         available through the internet is IMHO not secure. Taking
>         stuff can be made more difficult, but most secure....well, I
>         leave that up to the experts, but I have my doubts - see
>         Hannaford, TJX, etc.
>
>
>             I will look into the ionCube suggested earlier - Though
>             this seems to be a PHP only base solution. From what I
>             gather, a product like TrueCrypt could be better as I can
>             encrypt an entire volume or folder and it's done -
>             Regardless of type of code or application that exist or
>             being encrypted.
>
>
>         Again, comes down to the hosting service that you have. Do you
>         have that much access and rights to the server that you can
>         just go ahead and run services that encrypt and decrypt entire
>         folders?
>
>
>
>             I know many software type companies package there software
>             where either partially or fully the code is encrypted and
>             protected. This is the similar type of solution I guess I
>             am looking for.
>
>
>         Nah, most companies distribute binaries that make it difficult
>         enough for people like me to re-engineer the code. But look at
>         the open source security applications. Their code is freely
>         available. Security through obscurity is one of the worst
>         approaches.
>
>         I don't want to rain on your parade, but taking into account
>         that you are "not much of a php/programmer" you may want to
>         take a step back and think this over if that application is
>         indeed that critical and demands such secrecy that code and
>         database have to be encrypted. I play around with PHP for
>         about five years now and I don't think that I'd be capable of
>         writing a secure application. I'm not saying that you are not
>         capable of that, but I have the impression that you think
>         slapping some encryption onto something makes it secure.
>         I am also wondering a bit about your statement that you want
>         "to find the most effective and most secure way to upload my
>         website & db to remote host". So are you worried about
>         encryption during uploading or about encryption while
>         executing the scripts on the server and serving up content -
>         or both? What other security measures did you include?
>         Kaptchas? Multiple time-limited passwords? Multiple access
>         levels? Effective session management to kick people out of the
>         system after a few minutes of inactivity? Or even other means
>         such as biometrics as identification? Your own certificate?
>         Also, does it have to be a web client? I'd guess there are way
>         more and way better means to encrypt data when working with
>         fat clients. Also, which database engine do you plan to use?
>         Does that database engine have means to encrypt entire tables
>         or data sets?
>         And what do you do for client security? There is not much
>         gained when your server is like Fort Knox, but the users can
>         access the application from any client on any network and then
>         do so from theit favourite internet cafe, leaving the PC
>         unattended while getting another beer. So you want to at least
>         restrict the IP address (ranges) that are allowed to get even
>         to the login page.
>
>         Sorry for asking that many questions, but I think those and
>         many more questions need to be asked and sufficiently answered.
>
>         David
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>         http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>         NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>         http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>         Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>         http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From ramons at gmx.net  Sun Apr  6 20:49:58 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:49:58 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>	<47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>
	<799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F96FB6.8040205@gmx.net>

Joe Leo wrote:
> Wow, I really appreciate the feedback and some of the many comments i am 
> getting to my original question. I ask my original question not so much 
> I have some secrecy of any kind of application. As I mentioned, I'm not 
> much of a programmer in practice. I'm just getting interest in the 
> encryption technology as a whole and since I have not really used any of 
> them I wanted to get an idea how effective they are.

Ah, so you are not really creating a PHP application, but only want to inquire 
about encryption technologies? While that is a valid question to ask, you 
seemed to be asking more for an entire protection package, which encyption is 
only a small part from. I used to work for a company that makes electronic 
locks. A simple battery powered mortise lock starts at 1,000$. I once was 
asked by an IT services manager at a university which lock I recommend they 
put on the server room. I told him that it doesn't matter as long as the walls 
are made from sheet rock and one can just crawl in through the plenum anyway. 
The way I see it, the lock is the encryption piece you are looking for, but 
you don't ask about the fact that physical access to the server is easy and 
that someone even left a cart right next to it.
If you want to learn about encryption technology I'd recommend a walk to the 
local library and take a look at what they got. After that a good question to 
ask is who on this list made use of encryption technologies. You may also want 
to contact the various encryption tool vendors, but be warned that they will 
mail you constantly their marketing garbage. I did that once because I wanted 
to get a free 512MB USB drive. VeriSign still owes me the drive, but they make 
sure that my recycling bin is full.

> Now the feedback with the questions and comments I am getting are good, 
> in that, they make me think why would I use it and to achieve what 
> purpose. What I've been hoping to gain from asking my question is then 
> why & when to use such encryption tool - especially, when hosting your 
> data remotely by a hosting provider.

Ah, ok, but repeating myself here, only looking at encryption when using 3rd 
party hosting is really not the right approach in my opinion. You also need to 
see that the database and the web server are not necessarily on the same 
system. And you look only at file encryption as it seems, you need to look at 
data transfer encryption as well, which is a different animal and depends on 
what the server and client is. When the client is a browser you likely will 
have less choice of what kind of encryption you can use. Also, I mentioned 
obfuscation earlier, which is not the same as encryption. And you need to ask 
if encryption is really necessary and if you can secure the systems by other 
means as effectively.

> 
> My thought is if encryption techniques like TrueCrypt works - Why not 
> use it regardless who is your hosting provider. Or, having to consider 
> questions like who you trying to protect data from. I mean, when you buy 
> a nice bran new expensive car you have a key to lock the doors and some 
> go further to put in a car alarm or car tracking device. Who you're 
> trying to prevent from stealing your car is no brainer question to 
> consider - IMO. One knows that locking the door and/or having a car 
> alarm is a deterrent - Though not 100% guaranteed. Maybe my example is 
> not the best but just trying to raise a point.

Well, encryption comes at a cost, the performance of the entire system will go 
down and that may require that you create parallel system(s) to handle the 
load. Things get really complicated then.
Besides that, I always leave my car unlocked. Want to steal my crappy 29.99$ 
radio? Go right ahead. Gives me a reason to buy a better one. But please don't 
smash a window, which is way more expensive to replace. Or take the entire car 
and please don't have police find it. I have a cheap car that brings me from A 
to B. I just don't see the point in expensive cars who have big engines, are 
heavy and use excessive amounts of gas - but I guess that is not the point of 
this discussion.


> In my question to deploy some encryption on my data would (help) 
> minimize people stealing private data - Why not use it, especially if 
> there's not much performance penalty.

Why would encryption help when I can take the entire server and take my time 
decrypting the data? Or if I can use some off the shelf equipment from 
RadioShack and software off the web to capture and decipher the EMF from the 
client's mouse, keyboard and monitor? Tests have shown that one can read input 
and output this way from an office across the street.

> 
> David, regarding you comments below:
> 
>     So are you worried about encryption during uploading or about
>     encryption while executing the scripts on the server and serving up
>     content - or both? What other security measures did you include?
> 
> 
> You've hit the right questions I am looking to understand. The answer is 
> both. From what I understand about a tool like TrueCrypt I can encrypt 
> say my webfolder (web site) and upload it to my hosting provider. And, 

The way I understand it is that you can encrypt it once it is at your provider 
and need to decrypt it once you want to use it. At least that is what I got 
from the articles I read in the past, but I haven't read any more technical 
info about it. But uploading an encrypted folder requires that the hosting 
provider has servers that can decrypt the folder. Again, I don't think that 
file encryption is really the thing to look first at.


> what I am trying to understand is can the encrypted data remain 
> encrypted and still serve content. Or, once I upload the encrypted data 
> must I need to decrypt it to serve the content? I am not concern about 

You need to decrypt it at some point, the latest is at the client, unless you 
find persons that can decrypt digital data on the fly. I don't think these 
persons exist.


> data being encrypted out to the users browser. SSL takes care of that - 
> right? So, if it is that I can encrypt and it remains encrypt while 
> serving content then this is not a bad solution. And, of course one can 
> take other measures like ssh to the server to actually keep access to it 
> secure.

i don't know what SSL takes care of, but I don't think that SSL is what is 
used for file encryption. As mentioned before data transfer encryption and 
file encryption are two different things.

Say, you aren't writing some paper for the school that is due tomorrow, do you?

David



From joeleo724 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 20:57:05 2008
From: joeleo724 at gmail.com (Joe Leo)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:57:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <47F96BC4.1090409@o2group.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>
	<799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F96BC4.1090409@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <799abcd40804061757m2b1eaa84sd402a6493e4f928e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your reply and comments. The comments so far from the list has
enlightened me  a lot on this topic. And, I thank all for there comments!

The missing piece of info I guess I did not realize is that if I encrypt
some drive or part of it like folders or some system volume that I had to
have the decryption keys as part of it. I thought the keys was encrypted as
well. And, the only time it could be decrypted is by me.
So, If I wanted to modify and update the encrypted data I would then
download it back to my machine and decrypt it and make whatever changes and
upload it back to the server. While uploading and downloading the data it is
already in encrypted form.

And, my understanding was that new data that is saved/updated by users would
be encrypted on the fly. Encrypted data that leaves the server would be
decrypted BUT then with SSL only the user would see the requested data. This
was my understanding of what tools like TrueCrypt does. So, I think I'm
totally missing the point of the product.

For questions/comments about what kind of data I need to protect is hard to
answer as I don't have any specific data in mind. I'm more interested in
understanding the technology - regardless of data. But, to try and answer
that I would say any kind of typical web based application - but nothing
specific.

Joe



On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Tim Lieberman <tim_lists at o2group.com> wrote:

> Joe Leo wrote:
>
> > You've hit the right questions I am looking to understand. The answer is
> > both. From what I understand about a tool like TrueCrypt I can encrypt say
> > my webfolder (web site) and upload it to my hosting provider. And, what I am
> > trying to understand is can the encrypted data remain encrypted and still
> > serve content. Or, once I upload the encrypted data must I need to decrypt
> > it to serve the content? I am not concern about data being encrypted out to
> > the users browser. SSL takes care of that - right? So, if it is that I can
> > encrypt and it remains encrypt while serving content then this is not a bad
> > solution. And, of course one can take other measures like ssh to the server
> > to actually keep access to it secure.
> >
> In 99% of cases, there's no real argument for storing data on the server
> in an encrypted state.  This is because if your host security is
> compromised, the cracker will have your encryption keys as well as your
> encryption data.
>
> Communicating with server (Administration, Uploading files, etc):
>  SSH/SFTP.
> Data On The Server: Usually there is no good argument for encrypting it.
>  If you're going to be serving it to anyone, you'll need to decrypt it on
> the way out, so they can read it.  If the server can decrypt it, anyone who
> compromises the server can decrypt it, so it's useless and a waste of
> resources.
>
> Server Communicating with Clients: use SSL.
>
>
> The exception case:  You have a small group of users, to whom you want to
> make available some very secret data.  You don't want to do any processing
> of the data on the server.  You just want to upload an encrypted file, and
> have them download it (still encrypted).  This of course implies that you've
> somehow securely distributed the decryption key to your users.  This case
> almost never happens.  You'd be better off having your users generate GPG
> key pairs, send you the public key.  You encrypt for each user and send via
> email or any other method.  By leveraging public-key cryptography, you avoid
> the need to securely communicate any keys.
>
> As others have implied, it would be a lot easier to answer your queries if
> we knew more specifics about what kind of data (and what kind of operations
> on that data) you're talking about.
>
> But in almost every case, encrypting things on the server just chews up
> server resources while providing exactly zero protection.
>
> -Tim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
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From tim_lists at o2group.com  Sun Apr  6 21:23:38 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:23:38 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <799abcd40804061757m2b1eaa84sd402a6493e4f928e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>	<47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>	<799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>	<47F96BC4.1090409@o2group.com>
	<799abcd40804061757m2b1eaa84sd402a6493e4f928e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F9779A.4000604@o2group.com>

Joe Leo wrote:
> The missing piece of info I guess I did not realize is that if I 
> encrypt some drive or part of it like folders or some system volume 
> that I had to have the decryption keys as part of it. I thought the 
> keys was encrypted as well. And, the only time it could be decrypted 
> is by me.
> So, If I wanted to modify and update the encrypted data I would then 
> download it back to my machine and decrypt it and make whatever 
> changes and upload it back to the server. While uploading and 
> downloading the data it is already in encrypted form.
That sounds correct.  In this scenario, you're just using the server as 
a file server.  Since your data are encrypted before leaving your 
machine, you don't need to worry about encrypting it (again) in transit.
>
> And, my understanding was that new data that is saved/updated by users 
> would be encrypted on the fly. Encrypted data that leaves the server 
> would be decrypted BUT then with SSL only the user would see the 
> requested data. This was my understanding of what tools like TrueCrypt 
> does. So, I think I'm totally missing the point of the product.
This is where things get tricky.  If your users are submitting data 
(over SSL), and the server is encrypting it for storage, you can use a 
symmetric key pair, with only the encryption key on the server (you keep 
the decryption key secure at your location).

Things break down, however, when you want to give other users access to 
the data.  Now, the server needs to decrypt the data before sending it 
(which involves encrypting it via SSL, but you need unencrypted data to 
feed to the SSL mechanism).  Now, even with symmetric keys, you need 
both keys on the server.  Once you have encrypted data + the decryption 
key on the server, the encryption is meaningless, since if anyone 
compromises the server, they have all the information they need to 
decrypt the original data.

Generally, if you're trying to communicate sensitive information via a 
web based application, you want to look at the following areas:
    - The host security of the server.  Is the box hardened?  Are you 
running old, vulnerable versions of server software?  Do you have a 
strong password policy, or are you using SSH keys for authentication? Do 
you trust the people who have physical possession of the server?
    - The security of whatever web-based application is managing the 
data.  If I can break your web-app, then I can steal your data (even if 
it's encrypteded on disk!)
    - The protocol security of the protocols used to communicate with 
the server.  You should be using SSL (for web) and SSH (for shell access 
and file transfer services) -- otherwise you run the risk of a 
man-in-the-middle stealing your passwords, and subsequently your data.

If those three areas are properly addressed, you should be fine. 

If the data is encrypted on disk, that's fine -- but as soon as one of 
the above three is broken, your on-disk encryption is essentially 
worthless.  Which of course means that before any of those are broken, 
it's probably meaninglessly redundant.

Note, there's a forth concern: The security of the people who are 
allowed access.  Are you sure that user X isn't actually a spy.  This 
gets into the Authorization problem, which is probably going to get 
handled in your web app.  If you can limit people to accessing only the 
data they need, you limit your exposure.  This is a non-trivial problem, 
but there's a lot of good reading you can do about it.

-Tim



From joeleo724 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 21:52:43 2008
From: joeleo724 at gmail.com (Joe Leo)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 21:52:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Website Data Encryption tools
In-Reply-To: <47F9779A.4000604@o2group.com>
References: <799abcd40804060715i2b622785obcde7d94321b9c16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080406154651.GA24184@panix.com>
	<799abcd40804060929s121b05nca60c863c4d9541@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F93C08.3090405@gmx.net>
	<799abcd40804061612u5d5193ffo45a01e417d0dcf12@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F96BC4.1090409@o2group.com>
	<799abcd40804061757m2b1eaa84sd402a6493e4f928e@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F9779A.4000604@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <799abcd40804061852i1692297dv6b63cd8c41602712@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to all who have replied and commented to my questions. To Tim and
Dave, thanks for the input - your comments have all helped me to understand
quite a few things about the encryption. I think I've just graduated
encryption 101:) with much more to learn. Again, thanks for everyones
feedback!

Joe


On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Tim Lieberman <tim_lists at o2group.com> wrote:

> Joe Leo wrote:
>
> > The missing piece of info I guess I did not realize is that if I encrypt
> > some drive or part of it like folders or some system volume that I had to
> > have the decryption keys as part of it. I thought the keys was encrypted as
> > well. And, the only time it could be decrypted is by me.
> > So, If I wanted to modify and update the encrypted data I would then
> > download it back to my machine and decrypt it and make whatever changes and
> > upload it back to the server. While uploading and downloading the data it is
> > already in encrypted form.
> >
> That sounds correct.  In this scenario, you're just using the server as a
> file server.  Since your data are encrypted before leaving your machine, you
> don't need to worry about encrypting it (again) in transit.
>
> >
> > And, my understanding was that new data that is saved/updated by users
> > would be encrypted on the fly. Encrypted data that leaves the server would
> > be decrypted BUT then with SSL only the user would see the requested data.
> > This was my understanding of what tools like TrueCrypt does. So, I think I'm
> > totally missing the point of the product.
> >
> This is where things get tricky.  If your users are submitting data (over
> SSL), and the server is encrypting it for storage, you can use a symmetric
> key pair, with only the encryption key on the server (you keep the
> decryption key secure at your location).
>
> Things break down, however, when you want to give other users access to
> the data.  Now, the server needs to decrypt the data before sending it
> (which involves encrypting it via SSL, but you need unencrypted data to feed
> to the SSL mechanism).  Now, even with symmetric keys, you need both keys on
> the server.  Once you have encrypted data + the decryption key on the
> server, the encryption is meaningless, since if anyone compromises the
> server, they have all the information they need to decrypt the original
> data.
>
> Generally, if you're trying to communicate sensitive information via a web
> based application, you want to look at the following areas:
>   - The host security of the server.  Is the box hardened?  Are you
> running old, vulnerable versions of server software?  Do you have a strong
> password policy, or are you using SSH keys for authentication? Do you trust
> the people who have physical possession of the server?
>   - The security of whatever web-based application is managing the data.
>  If I can break your web-app, then I can steal your data (even if it's
> encrypteded on disk!)
>   - The protocol security of the protocols used to communicate with the
> server.  You should be using SSL (for web) and SSH (for shell access and
> file transfer services) -- otherwise you run the risk of a man-in-the-middle
> stealing your passwords, and subsequently your data.
>
> If those three areas are properly addressed, you should be fine.
> If the data is encrypted on disk, that's fine -- but as soon as one of the
> above three is broken, your on-disk encryption is essentially worthless.
>  Which of course means that before any of those are broken, it's probably
> meaninglessly redundant.
>
> Note, there's a forth concern: The security of the people who are allowed
> access.  Are you sure that user X isn't actually a spy.  This gets into the
> Authorization problem, which is probably going to get handled in your web
> app.  If you can limit people to accessing only the data they need, you
> limit your exposure.  This is a non-trivial problem, but there's a lot of
> good reading you can do about it.
>
>
> -Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
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From ps at sun-code.com  Thu Apr 10 07:40:21 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:40:21 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BOT=5D_Food_=26_Wine_Pairs_Ideas_A?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?pr=E8s_Programming?=
Message-ID: <004101c89aff$a9274440$fb75ccc0$@com>

Oysters: Massachusetts pemaquid.

Chablis: Fran?ois Raveneau Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos 1991.

Chef: David Kinch, Manresa, Los Gatos, Calif.

 

Ribs: Short ribs, saucy.

Shiraz: Lengs and Cooter Sparkling Shiraz, Australia. 

Chef: Jody Adams, Rialto Restaurant and Bar, Boston, Mass.

 

Cod: Pan seared w/ pigs' tails, Caraquet oysters, celeriac & P?rigord
truffle.

Red: Marcillac Red Wine from France's southwest.

Chef: Josh Emett, Gordon Ramsay at the London, New York, N.Y.

 

Salmon: Prepared "sous-vide" topped w/ smoked brook trout roe.

White Burgundy: 2001 Francois Jobard Bourgogne Blanc.

Chef: Michael Cimarusti, Providence, Los Angeles, Calif.

 

Squid: Salad w/ rice noodles, cucumber, basil & mint, lime & sweet chile
sauce. 

Reisling: 1990 Bert Simon Auslese Riesling

Chef: Nobu Fakuda, Sea Saw, Scottsdale, Ariz.

 

Sweetbreads: Browned in butter, lemon & parsley, topped w/ a runny
poached egg. 

Chardonnay: 2005 Rosemary's Vineyard Chardonnay.

Chef: Tony Esnault, Adour, New York, N.Y.

 

Bass: Tartare w/ a tangy olive tapenade.

Ros?: Wolffer Estate Vineyards (East Hampton) 2007 Ros?.

Chef: Eric Ripert, Le Bernardin, New York, N.Y.

 

Pork: Pan-fried w/ Cajun spice, green onion & rice.

Red: Muga's Tempranillo from Rioja, Spain.

Chef: Donald Link, Cochon, New Orleans, La.

 

Sea Urchin:  Prepared in a lobster gel?e, topped w/ a cauliflower cream.

Ros?: Billecart-Salmon Ros? Champagne.

Chef: Michelle Bernstein, Michy's, Miami, Fla.

 

Warmest regards, 

 

Peter Sawczynec 

Technology Dir.

Sun-code Interactive

Sun-code.com 

646.316.3678 

 <mailto:ps at sun-code.com> ps at sun-code.com

 

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From suzerain at suzerain.com  Thu Apr 10 10:13:23 2008
From: suzerain at suzerain.com (Marc Antony Vose)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:13:23 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] export to access or excel
Message-ID: <85EF36E3-9A55-4563-A331-732659877E97@suzerain.com>

Hi there:

This just feels like one of those questions that would have been asked  
a million times, but looking at the web site, it appears that the  
archives of this list are not searchable?

Anyway, it can still be worthwhile to ask the same question again, I  
suppose, because new projects come along, and others get improved or  
die.

So, the question is: can anyone recommend a good library for exporting  
MDB or XLS files from PHP?  I'm in a situation where I'd prefer an  
access dump, but an excel dump could possibly work.

I'm googling away, as well, but hoping for some bona fide firsthand  
recommendation from someone who maybe does this a lot (I don't).

Cheers.

Marc Vose
http://www.suzerain.com


From dirn at dirnonline.com  Thu Apr 10 10:22:45 2008
From: dirn at dirnonline.com (dirn at dirnonline.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:22:45 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] export to access or excel
Message-ID: <20080410072245.9562cbc3556ac68f081dfda387a9f4ab.85c565a906.wbe@email.secureserver.net>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20080410/203812d1/attachment.html>

From ramons at gmx.net  Thu Apr 10 10:39:02 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:39:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] export to access or excel
In-Reply-To: <85EF36E3-9A55-4563-A331-732659877E97@suzerain.com>
References: <85EF36E3-9A55-4563-A331-732659877E97@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <47FE2686.1060509@gmx.net>

Marc Antony Vose wrote:
> So, the question is: can anyone recommend a good library for exporting 
> MDB or XLS files from PHP?  I'm in a situation where I'd prefer an 
> access dump, but an excel dump could possibly work.
> 
PHP has ODBC support and may even have support to talk to Access directly, but 
that may require working on a Windows box. Or you could write everything to a 
CSV and pull that in.

David


From consult at covenantedesign.com  Thu Apr 10 11:00:02 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:00:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] export to access or excel
In-Reply-To: <85EF36E3-9A55-4563-A331-732659877E97@suzerain.com>
References: <85EF36E3-9A55-4563-A331-732659877E97@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <47FE2B72.8070108@covenantedesign.com>

You can search ANY site with google:

You can use Google to search only within one specific website by 
entering the search terms you're looking for, followed by the word 
"site" and a colon followed by the domain name.

export XLS files PHP site:list.nyphp.org


-Ed

Marc Antony Vose wrote:
> Hi there:
>
> This just feels like one of those questions that would have been asked 
> a million times, but looking at the web site, it appears that the 
> archives of this list are not searchable?
>
> Anyway, it can still be worthwhile to ask the same question again, I 
> suppose, because new projects come along, and others get improved or die.
>
> So, the question is: can anyone recommend a good library for exporting 
> MDB or XLS files from PHP?  I'm in a situation where I'd prefer an 
> access dump, but an excel dump could possibly work.
>
> I'm googling away, as well, but hoping for some bona fide firsthand 
> recommendation from someone who maybe does this a lot (I don't).
>
> Cheers.
>
> Marc Vose
> http://www.suzerain.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>




From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 06:51:34 2008
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:51:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP and MySQL Connections
Message-ID: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>

We have been having some performance issues on one of our larger
sites, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about fixing
them. We use the adoDB abstraction library. Since day one, we've used
persistent connections, and I think that might be at least part of the
problem. So if I switch from the persistent connection, PConnect() to
the non-persistent, Connect(), I want to make sure of one particular
thing:

My understanding is that PHP automatically cleans up a database
connection after it has executed the query. Therefore, I don't need to
use the close() function. Is that correct?

On a related note, our main issue is that the site keeps slowing down
and we are getting a 'Too Many Connections' error from MySQL. I had
the number of connections increased from 100 to 150 on both Apache and
MySQL two weeks ago, but we are still having the problem, although
less frequently. One thing I'd like to be able to do is check how many
connections have physically been made to the database. I did this a
couple of weeks ago, but now I can't find the MySQL query returns that
information. If anyone could throw that out to me, I'd greatly
appreciate it.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com


From rolan at omnistep.com  Fri Apr 11 11:24:22 2008
From: rolan at omnistep.com (Rolan Yang)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:24:22 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP and MySQL Connections
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>

Randal Rust wrote:
> We have been having some performance issues on one of our larger
> sites, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about fixing
> them. 

.....
> On a related note, our main issue is that the site keeps slowing down
> and we are getting a 'Too Many Connections' error from MySQL. I had
> the number of connections increased from 100 to 150 on both Apache and
> MySQL two weeks ago, but we are still having the problem, although
> less frequently. One thing I'd like to be able to do is check how many
> connections have physically been made to the database. I did this a
> couple of weeks ago, but now I can't find the MySQL query returns that
> information. If anyone could throw that out to me, I'd greatly
> appreciate it.
>
>   

Most common problem I see is a database that is not optimized or a sql 
server that is just underpowered (not enough cpu, ram, or disk i/o 
bandwidth .. usually it's the latter 2).  If the database can be 
optimized, you will likely not need to upgrade the hardware.

First, examine your queries to see what is slow:
When your website begins to die, check the mysql process list
mysqladmin -p processlist
You'll probably see a list of queries that are taking a long time. These 
will eventually build up until you reach "Too Many Connections".
You can also enable "--log-slow-queries" in mysql to log the slow 
queries to a file.
Track down the queries, prune your tables, add indexes, or rewrite the 
sql properly to speed things up.

You can tweak the my.conf  mysql config file settings to get a little 
better performance but the underlying problem is usually something more 
serious. If it all looks good, next blame the hardware.

Good tools to monitor ram and disk i/o usage using vmstat and iostat.

Leave "vmstat 5" running to see if your machine has run out of memory 
and is swapping pages to disk. This is often the tipping point leading 
to meltdown. The "cpu wa" column will show amount of time in wait state. 
if this is high, you've likely run out of disk bandwidth
Time to buy more or faster hard drives or break the app apart into a 
cluster of machines.

~Rolan














From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 10:07:18 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:07:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
Message-ID: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>

So, we're hiring a new webmaster here at work and I was tasked with 
producing a simple technical test. The person is supposed to have two 
years experience as a web dev. There's three parts: html, css, and 
webmaster questions. What do you think?
(bonus: I'll tell you what my manager thought)

HTML

1) Which HTML attribute is used to define inline styles?
       a) font
       b) styles
       c) css
       d) text
       e) style

2) What is the correct HTML for referring to an external style sheet?
       a) <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
       b) <style src="mainstyle.css">
       c) <stylesheet>mainstyle.css</stylesheet>
       d) <link url="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">

3) Which HTML tag is used to define an internal style sheet?
       a) <script>
       b) <css>
       c) <stylesheet>
       d) <style>

CSS

4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
       a) body {color: black}
       b) body:color=black
       c) {body:color=black}
       d) {body color:black}

5) How does one set a border like this:

    The top border = 10 pixels, The bottom border = 5 pixels, The left
border = 20 pixels, The right border = 1pixel.

       a) border-width:10px 20px 5px 1px
       b) border-width:10px 1px 5px 20px
       c) border-width:10px 5px 20px 1px
       d) border-width:5px 20px 10px 1px

6) What are the three methods for using style sheets with a web page
       a) Dreamweaver, GoLive or FrontPage
       b) In-Line, External or Embedded
       c) Handcoded, Database-driven or WYSIWYG

PROGRAMMING

7) a and b are variables.

    a = 10
    b = 20
    a = b

    The new values of a and b are, respectively:

WEBMASTER

8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
kilobytes)? How are the factors related?

9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?

10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
development?



From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 10:24:39 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:24:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>

I'd only keep the last two questions:

9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?

10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
development?

I think the other questions would be incredibly ineffective in
determining the abilities of a possible employee. All of them could be
picked up in a matter of hours, while the knowledge and experience
required to answer the last two questions is a far better indicator of
of a talented developer. Also, an inability to answer any one of the
CSS questions wouldn't necessarily be an indication of lack of talent,
I think it took me quite a few months to stop checking my CSS cheat
sheet before I memorized Top Right Bottom Left!

Any webmaster/developer with two REAL (full time tech company) years
of experience would be able to have a much more in depth conversation
about web design philosophy, best practices and commonly accepted
methods of accomplishing a given task. This worksheet looks like it
might be appropriate for 1. Straight out of college or 2. Hobbyist web
developer (no CS degree). I'd take the requirement of 2 years off, so
that you attract inexperienced but technically talented recent grad
and hand them an O'Reilly book on day one.

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
> So, we're hiring a new webmaster here at work and I was tasked with
> producing a simple technical test. The person is supposed to have two years
> experience as a web dev. There's three parts: html, css, and webmaster
> questions. What do you think?
>  (bonus: I'll tell you what my manager thought)
>
>  HTML
>
>  1) Which HTML attribute is used to define inline styles?
>       a) font
>       b) styles
>       c) css
>       d) text
>       e) style
>
>  2) What is the correct HTML for referring to an external style sheet?
>       a) <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>       b) <style src="mainstyle.css">
>       c) <stylesheet>mainstyle.css</stylesheet>
>       d) <link url="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>
>  3) Which HTML tag is used to define an internal style sheet?
>       a) <script>
>       b) <css>
>       c) <stylesheet>
>       d) <style>
>
>  CSS
>
>  4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
>       a) body {color: black}
>       b) body:color=black
>       c) {body:color=black}
>       d) {body color:black}
>
>  5) How does one set a border like this:
>
>    The top border = 10 pixels, The bottom border = 5 pixels, The left
>  border = 20 pixels, The right border = 1pixel.
>
>       a) border-width:10px 20px 5px 1px
>       b) border-width:10px 1px 5px 20px
>       c) border-width:10px 5px 20px 1px
>       d) border-width:5px 20px 10px 1px
>
>  6) What are the three methods for using style sheets with a web page
>       a) Dreamweaver, GoLive or FrontPage
>       b) In-Line, External or Embedded
>       c) Handcoded, Database-driven or WYSIWYG
>
>  PROGRAMMING
>
>  7) a and b are variables.
>
>    a = 10
>    b = 20
>    a = b
>
>    The new values of a and b are, respectively:
>
>  WEBMASTER
>
>  8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
>  kilobytes)? How are the factors related?
>
>  9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?
>
>  10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
>  development?
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 10:25:08 2008
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:25:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I think that the border question is a little specific.  I never memorize
order of parameters,  I learn the concepts behind it.  Knowing which
position comes first in a border-width command doesn't really demonstrate
your knowledge of css.

I think a better question would be something for inheritence of css, and set
up something with

.foo {
    font-size: 10px;
    color: #14191D;
}

    .foo .bar {
        font-size: 15px;
        text-decoration: underline;
     }

<div class="foo">
 // blah blah
 <div class="bar">Hello World</div>
</div>

What attributes will Hello World have on the screen?

correct answer being font-size 15px, underline, and color #14191D.

To get good programmers and designers, the trick is to not test them on
things like syntax.  I consider myself to have a strong command on css and I
would never know the answer to the question to your border problem, as it
really doesn't hold any meaning.  I take 1 minute out of my day to go to
www.w3schools.com and look up the syntax and I've got it.

For your programming question, I think someone without programming
experience could get that :)

I'm a big fan of the fizzbuzz question:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html

It's a very simple test that will quickly show to you if someone has basic
programming skills.

Hope that helps
- Brian


On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:

> So, we're hiring a new webmaster here at work and I was tasked with
> producing a simple technical test. The person is supposed to have two years
> experience as a web dev. There's three parts: html, css, and webmaster
> questions. What do you think?
> (bonus: I'll tell you what my manager thought)
>
> HTML
>
> 1) Which HTML attribute is used to define inline styles?
>      a) font
>      b) styles
>      c) css
>      d) text
>      e) style
>
> 2) What is the correct HTML for referring to an external style sheet?
>      a) <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>      b) <style src="mainstyle.css">
>      c) <stylesheet>mainstyle.css</stylesheet>
>      d) <link url="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>
> 3) Which HTML tag is used to define an internal style sheet?
>      a) <script>
>      b) <css>
>      c) <stylesheet>
>      d) <style>
>
> CSS
>
> 4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
>      a) body {color: black}
>      b) body:color=black
>      c) {body:color=black}
>      d) {body color:black}
>
> 5) How does one set a border like this:
>
>   The top border = 10 pixels, The bottom border = 5 pixels, The left
> border = 20 pixels, The right border = 1pixel.
>
>      a) border-width:10px 20px 5px 1px
>      b) border-width:10px 1px 5px 20px
>      c) border-width:10px 5px 20px 1px
>      d) border-width:5px 20px 10px 1px
>
> 6) What are the three methods for using style sheets with a web page
>      a) Dreamweaver, GoLive or FrontPage
>      b) In-Line, External or Embedded
>      c) Handcoded, Database-driven or WYSIWYG
>
> PROGRAMMING
>
> 7) a and b are variables.
>
>   a = 10
>   b = 20
>   a = b
>
>   The new values of a and b are, respectively:
>
> WEBMASTER
>
> 8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
> kilobytes)? How are the factors related?
>
> 9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?
>
> 10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
> development?
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
Brian O'Connor
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From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 10:27:32 2008
From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (Guilherme Blanco)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:27:32 -0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <bcb7aa500804140727o391f4bc6he63e07de6f23ed18@mail.gmail.com>

Too focused on CSS.

HTML is simple, and as you may see, you asked 3 questions, all of them
CSS related. Try something more difficult too... one example:

<input> is a block element or an inline element?

A single programming question and very simple one. Anyone that has a
minimal understand of logic is able to answer that. Put another one,
more complex... try 2 questions...
You should try something to be more written and programming focused
too. Try for example to ask for a basic task... for example, given a
number, return only the prime numbers.
This will request the applicant to think a little, but the solution is
far simple.
Another good way is to do the opposite... put a piece of code and ask
for the applicant what does it do, what does it return given "these"
parameters...

About CSS... you could merge 4 and 5 together... =)
Question 6 is ok...

I think you can try something harder in CSS..... =)


About webmaster question... question 8, ok.
Question 9 I'd answer:

Why use Flash?
There's no need to use flash anywhere.
Why not?
Everything that is possible to be done in Flash is possible to be done
with the combination of HTML, CSS and JavaScript.

As you may see, the question is rather vague... a designer could tell
you Why use: Because you do not need to rely of browser
inconsistencies. Why not: Flash app size.

Question 10 is ok.


That's my 2 cents.... =)



Regards,

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
> So, we're hiring a new webmaster here at work and I was tasked with
> producing a simple technical test. The person is supposed to have two years
> experience as a web dev. There's three parts: html, css, and webmaster
> questions. What do you think?
>  (bonus: I'll tell you what my manager thought)
>
>  HTML
>
>  1) Which HTML attribute is used to define inline styles?
>       a) font
>       b) styles
>       c) css
>       d) text
>       e) style
>
>  2) What is the correct HTML for referring to an external style sheet?
>       a) <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>       b) <style src="mainstyle.css">
>       c) <stylesheet>mainstyle.css</stylesheet>
>       d) <link url="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>
>  3) Which HTML tag is used to define an internal style sheet?
>       a) <script>
>       b) <css>
>       c) <stylesheet>
>       d) <style>
>
>  CSS
>
>  4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
>       a) body {color: black}
>       b) body:color=black
>       c) {body:color=black}
>       d) {body color:black}
>
>  5) How does one set a border like this:
>
>    The top border = 10 pixels, The bottom border = 5 pixels, The left
>  border = 20 pixels, The right border = 1pixel.
>
>       a) border-width:10px 20px 5px 1px
>       b) border-width:10px 1px 5px 20px
>       c) border-width:10px 5px 20px 1px
>       d) border-width:5px 20px 10px 1px
>
>  6) What are the three methods for using style sheets with a web page
>       a) Dreamweaver, GoLive or FrontPage
>       b) In-Line, External or Embedded
>       c) Handcoded, Database-driven or WYSIWYG
>
>  PROGRAMMING
>
>  7) a and b are variables.
>
>    a = 10
>    b = 20
>    a = b
>
>    The new values of a and b are, respectively:
>
>  WEBMASTER
>
>  8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
>  kilobytes)? How are the factors related?
>
>  9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?
>
>  10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
>  development?
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
Rio de Janeiro - RJ/Brazil

From max at neuropunks.org  Mon Apr 14 10:37:57 2008
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:37:57 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] export to access or excel
In-Reply-To: <85EF36E3-9A55-4563-A331-732659877E97@suzerain.com>
References: <85EF36E3-9A55-4563-A331-732659877E97@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <48036C45.4050804@neuropunks.org>

I used this to write excel files:
http://pear.php.net/package/Spreadsheet_Excel_Writer/redirected

it will do multiple workbooks, which was the only advanced feature i 
needed besides just writing data into rows/cols
Not sure if this will work for you..

This one i used for reading excel only:
http://pear.php.net/pepr/pepr-proposal-show.php?id=304

Marc Antony Vose wrote:
> Hi there:
>
> This just feels like one of those questions that would have been asked 
> a million times, but looking at the web site, it appears that the 
> archives of this list are not searchable?
>
> Anyway, it can still be worthwhile to ask the same question again, I 
> suppose, because new projects come along, and others get improved or die.
>
> So, the question is: can anyone recommend a good library for exporting 
> MDB or XLS files from PHP?  I'm in a situation where I'd prefer an 
> access dump, but an excel dump could possibly work.
>
> I'm googling away, as well, but hoping for some bona fide firsthand 
> recommendation from someone who maybe does this a lot (I don't).
>
> Cheers.
>
> Marc Vose
> http://www.suzerain.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 10:49:30 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:49:30 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48036EFA.6070805@pitanga.org>

>
> I'd only keep the last two questions

Right on, Jake.
For me the truly relevant questions are 7 to 10. I was hoping 1-5 might 
just give the hand-coders a leg up. Number 6 is mostly a gag :)

> Also, an inability to answer any one of the
> CSS questions wouldn't necessarily be an indication of lack of talent,
> I think it took me quite a few months to stop checking my CSS cheat
> sheet before I memorized Top Right Bottom Left!

So true! Me too!
It's almost like unconsciously I want to test candidates on what I 
happen to already know. Not a real measure of talent or even real knowledge.

> This worksheet looks like it
> might be appropriate for 1. Straight out of college or 2. Hobbyist web
> developer (no CS degree). 

I'm not sure why we're asking for two years experience... I know we're 
not requiring CS degree.
I believe a recent college grad could swing it.  In fact, who cares that 
they even have a college degree?

> Any webmaster/developer with two REAL (full time tech company) years
> of experience would be able to have a much more in depth conversation
> about web design philosophy, best practices and commonly accepted
> methods of accomplishing a given task. 
True. I hope we can find someone who's actually interested in this stuff.
I myself could spend hours arguing about doctypes, semantics shibboleths 
or whatever. But then again, I'm committed to excellence ;)


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 10:59:17 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:59:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>

> I think that the border question is a little specific.  I never 
> memorize order of parameters,  I learn the concepts behind it.  
> Knowing which position comes first in a border-width command doesn't 
> really demonstrate your knowledge of css.

True indeed.  There's more value in conceptual knowledge than in rote 
memorization of syntax.
Your inheritance question is indeed better. I'll add it to the next 
draft. Thank you.

> For your programming question, I think someone without programming 
> experience could get that :)

Great. I don't think that would be a problem. I think that would be a 
pretty smart person.
I knew about fizz-buzz but thought it was too difficult...


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 10:59:48 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:59:48 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804140759g490c074bsb1aa5c8b5399a0ef@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with the general consensus that these are really soft ball questions.

Below are a few questions I ask:

Instead of #10, I ask:
Name two tags that were deprecated in html 4.  Why were they deprecated?

Other questions I like:
1. What is the difference between, jpeg, gif, and png?  When is each
one appropriate?
(it is astonishing how many experienced developers can't get this right.)

2. Name four IE6 rendering bugs.

3. When are tables appropriate for layout?

-john


From jbaltz at altzman.com  Mon Apr 14 11:07:39 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:07:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-14 10:24 Jake McGraw said the following:
> I'd only keep the last two questions:
> 9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?
> 10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
> development?

Having been on the interviewer side of the desk many many times -- 
interviewing well over 100 people for operations, development, and other 
positions -- I have to respectfully disagree.

2 years of experience on a r?sum? doesn't really translate into that 
much, and two years of experience might really have been two times one 
year of experience, and the person might have been pigeonholed into one 
small area, or only have been using do-everything-for-you tools...

I have found that many people do NOT gain much general exposure.

Nonetheless, these last two questions are good, and should be included 
as well to allow candidates to show their stuff since they're open-ended.

> I think the other questions would be incredibly ineffective in
> determining the abilities of a possible employee. All of them could be
> picked up in a matter of hours, while the knowledge and experience

And yet, you'd like to know that someone you're hiring with "several 
years' experience" doesn't have to learn his ABCs and 123s also.

If this were a ten-year veteran, I'd still want some few basic-skill 
questions, to make sure that he's still in touch, but obviously I'd want 
to know more about more advanced things; more strategy than tactics, as 
it were.

> required to answer the last two questions is a far better indicator of
> of a talented developer. Also, an inability to answer any one of the
> CSS questions wouldn't necessarily be an indication of lack of talent,
> I think it took me quite a few months to stop checking my CSS cheat
> sheet before I memorized Top Right Bottom Left!

I don't believe that any test of this nature should be strictly 
disqualifying; anyone who uses these blindly (like giving them to an HR 
person and saying "ditch below 70%" automatically) doesn't do himself as 
much good. If you're accustomed to reading r?sum?s, and you're doing 
phone interviews 
(http://www.jbaltz.com/weblog/2006/10/phone_screens_redux_1.html) (in 
fact, using this type of quiz as part of a phone screen!) you'd be able 
to winnow out the clowns much earlier.

> Any webmaster/developer with two REAL (full time tech company) years
> of experience would be able to have a much more in depth conversation
> about web design philosophy, best practices and commonly accepted

I think you put too much faith in time-in-grade. To those of us with 
more than a decade of experience doing the same thing, two years just 
isn't that much :-)

That isn't to say that the questions originally posted aren't a bit 
picayune, only that the idea of a basic-skills test for lower-level (1-3 
years experience) is actually a sound one. "I'd just google it" means 
that the candidate just doesn't have THAT much experience in actually 
*doing* it. (Lord knows that I don't run to google for every little 
lookup, I've got sites I already know and have at my fingertips for 
mundane tasks, like oddball CSS recipes.)


> - jake

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From ben at projectskyline.com  Mon Apr 14 11:09:26 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:09:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <480373A6.70702@projectskyline.com>

Hello ladies and gentlemen,

I just want to give a +1 to the previous thoughts. Most of the questions 
you had (1-5) are pretty silly.
Ask them to either look at code and predict the behavior, or create 
something of their own.

You can also request they submit code when they apply for the position.

Good luck!

- Ben

Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>> I think that the border question is a little specific.  I never 
>> memorize order of parameters,  I learn the concepts behind it.  
>> Knowing which position comes first in a border-width command doesn't 
>> really demonstrate your knowledge of css.
>
> True indeed.  There's more value in conceptual knowledge than in rote 
> memorization of syntax.
> Your inheritance question is indeed better. I'll add it to the next 
> draft. Thank you.
>
>> For your programming question, I think someone without programming 
>> experience could get that :)
>
> Great. I don't think that would be a problem. I think that would be a 
> pretty smart person.
> I knew about fizz-buzz but thought it was too difficult...
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 11:09:55 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:09:55 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>

This was the first time I'd seen the fizz buzz problem, I like it
because it can really show what level a programmer is at in only a
couple of lines of code, considering there are so many solutions.

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
>
> > I think that the border question is a little specific.  I never memorize
> order of parameters,  I learn the concepts behind it.  Knowing which
> position comes first in a border-width command doesn't really demonstrate
> your knowledge of css.
> >
>
>  True indeed.  There's more value in conceptual knowledge than in rote
> memorization of syntax.
>  Your inheritance question is indeed better. I'll add it to the next draft.
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> > For your programming question, I think someone without programming
> experience could get that :)
> >
>
>  Great. I don't think that would be a problem. I think that would be a
> pretty smart person.
>  I knew about fizz-buzz but thought it was too difficult...
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Mon Apr 14 11:13:14 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:13:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP and MySQL Connections
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080414151314.GA4932@panix.com>

Hi Randal:

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 06:51:34AM -0400, Randal Rust wrote:
> My understanding is that PHP automatically cleans up a database
> connection after it has executed the query. Therefore, I don't need to
> use the close() function. Is that correct?

No.  close() is called during PHP's cleanup process that happens at the 
end of script execution.


> One thing I'd like to be able to do is check how many
> connections have physically been made to the database.

Do you mean "SHOW [FULL] PROCESSLIST" or "SHOW [GLOBAL | SESSION] 
STATUS"?

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 11:13:23 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:13:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <bcb7aa500804140727o391f4bc6he63e07de6f23ed18@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<bcb7aa500804140727o391f4bc6he63e07de6f23ed18@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48037493.4030400@pitanga.org>

Hey Guilherme,

> Too focused on CSS.
>   

I was hoping no one would notice that ;)
> HTML is simple, and as you may see, you asked 3 questions, all of them
> CSS related. Try something more difficult too... one example:
>
> <input> is a block element or an inline element?
>   
Yes. But what if instead of asking about a particular element,  I asked 
"What's the difference between an inline or block element? How can you 
change it via css?"?

> A single programming question and very simple one. Anyone that has a
> minimal understand of logic is able to answer that. Put another one,
> more complex... try 2 questions...
>   

Ha! One would think, no? All too easy...

well, check out what my manager said in response:

> Thanks for taking care of this. Is the answer to 7 15? Hope so. If so,
> is that too easy for a programmer?
> Can you give us an answer sheet?
lol
> You should try something to be more written and programming focused
> too. Try for example to ask for a basic task... for example, given a
> number, return only the prime numbers.
>   

What's a prime number? ;)

> Another good way is to do the opposite... put a piece of code and ask
> for the applicant what does it do, what does it return given "these"
> parameters...
>   

That's what I tried to do here. But with a generic syntax.

> Question 9 I'd answer:
>
> Why use Flash?
> There's no need to use flash anywhere.
> Why not?
> Everything that is possible to be done in Flash is possible to be done
> with the combination of HTML, CSS and JavaScript.
>   

You're hired! ;)

> As you may see, the question is rather vague... a designer could tell
> you Why use: Because you do not need to rely of browser
> inconsistencies. Why not: Flash app size.
>   
That would be a good answer as well...

> Question 10 is ok.
>   

WIN!
>
> That's my 2 cents.... =)
:-)


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 11:26:41 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:26:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804140759g490c074bsb1aa5c8b5399a0ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<8f0676b40804140759g490c074bsb1aa5c8b5399a0ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480377B1.5010109@pitanga.org>

Hey John,

> I agree with the general consensus that these are really soft ball questions.
>   

I too agree!  But that's okay though. I was hoping that good candidates 
would get ~100% right, you know?

> Instead of #10, I ask:
> Name two tags that were deprecated in html 4.  Why were they deprecated?
>   

Great. It focuses the question into a real-world  example. I'll consider 
it for the next draft. Thank you.
> Other questions I like:
> 1. What is the difference between, jpeg, gif, and png?  When is each
> one appropriate?
> (it is astonishing how many experienced developers can't get this right.)
>   
Good question. I wonder how I could make it multiple choice?
> 2. Name four IE6 rendering bugs.
>   

ouch... I myself wouldn't know this by heart.

> 3. When are tables appropriate for layout?
>   
trick question?
Thanks, John :)


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 11:33:05 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:33:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <480373A6.70702@projectskyline.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<480373A6.70702@projectskyline.com>
Message-ID: <48037931.3010001@pitanga.org>

Hey Ben Sgro,
> Most of the questions you had (1-5) are pretty silly.

Yes. but notice this: the winning candidate's  actual manager has asked 
me for the answer sheet for the test.

> You can also request they submit code when they apply for the position.

But in that case, couldn't a malicious candidate grab code from somewhere?

>
> Good luck!
Thanks a lot.
-Andr?


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 11:42:24 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:42:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48037B60.3000309@pitanga.org>

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From urb at e-government.com  Mon Apr 14 11:45:36 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:45:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080414113538.02b132d0@e-government.com>

One of the problems I have with your test is that it doesn't look for 
insights. I
would look for someone who can problem solve. A good problem solver might
do poorly on your test.

Looking at programming specifically, it's not about syntax, it's 
about logic. I've
been programming for 30 years and taught programming and software
engineering from introductory programming to graduate level.

Give a candidate this test.

Write the simplest possible algorithm (don't use a specific 
programming language)
to solve the following:

Given a single elimination tennis tournament (you loose a match and 
you're out)
with N players. How many matches are required to determine a winner? Here is
an example, four players A, B, C, and D. In the first round, A play B 
and C plays
D. A and D win. So far 2 matches and 2 players go to next round.

If they come up with a one statement algorithm forget the rest of the 
test and hire
them. They will figure out what then need to know that they don't 
already know.

I gave this little quiz on the first day of every programming class. 
Less than 5% of
those tested got it right. Those who did went on to great programming careers,
without exception.

Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 11:46:54 2008
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:46:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>

There is only ONE question to ask, in the immortal words of Steve Jobs:
Have you shipped ANY thing in your life?  :-)

And my only coder question:
How good are you with vi at the command line?

And my only designer question:
Show me cool stuff.

You will SAVE years of HR time with those 3 questions.

 I don't really care where u worked, went to school, grades, or the
results of a test. Just show me COOL stuff that you worked on - and
can you work 20/30/40 hours straight on a problem, without moaning and
groaning about it -  and love doing it?

PS,  TRouBLe   :-)  ed




On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> This was the first time I'd seen the fizz buzz problem, I like it
>  because it can really show what level a programmer is at in only a
>  couple of lines of code, considering there are so many solutions.
>
>  - jake
>
>
>
>  On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
>  >
>  > > I think that the border question is a little specific.  I never memorize
>  > order of parameters,  I learn the concepts behind it.  Knowing which
>  > position comes first in a border-width command doesn't really demonstrate
>  > your knowledge of css.
>  > >
>  >
>  >  True indeed.  There's more value in conceptual knowledge than in rote
>  > memorization of syntax.
>  >  Your inheritance question is indeed better. I'll add it to the next draft.
>  > Thank you.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > > For your programming question, I think someone without programming
>  > experience could get that :)
>  > >
>  >
>  >  Great. I don't think that would be a problem. I think that would be a
>  > pretty smart person.
>  >  I knew about fizz-buzz but thought it was too difficult...
>  >
>  >
>  >  _______________________________________________
>  >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  >
>  >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>  >
>  >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>  >
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
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From d at ingk.com  Mon Apr 14 11:57:10 2008
From: d at ingk.com (Damion Hankejh (ingk))
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:57:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c89e48$3354d290$99fe77b0$@com>

Fizzbuzz is an excellent test.  I would not hire a "programmer" if s/he
failed to solve Fizzbuzz in under 5 minutes in your target language(s).  I
would also allow for some minor syntax errors if the solution otherwise
worked.

Regarding CSS, the inheritance question will prove far more indicative of a
programmer's skill than the order of border attributes.  It requires a
greater depth of CSS understanding, while Google (and perhaps del.icio.us)
has become the ultimate digital cheat sheet for syntax and I do not think
developers should be slighted for leveraging them.  I also like the inline
vs. stylesheet question as it demonstrates an important grasp of style
overriding. 

Damion


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Jake McGraw
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 11:10 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test

This was the first time I'd seen the fizz buzz problem, I like it
because it can really show what level a programmer is at in only a
couple of lines of code, considering there are so many solutions.

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
>
> > I think that the border question is a little specific.  I never memorize
> order of parameters,  I learn the concepts behind it.  Knowing which
> position comes first in a border-width command doesn't really demonstrate
> your knowledge of css.
> >
>
>  True indeed.  There's more value in conceptual knowledge than in rote
> memorization of syntax.
>  Your inheritance question is indeed better. I'll add it to the next
draft.
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> > For your programming question, I think someone without programming
> experience could get that :)
> >
>
>  Great. I don't think that would be a problem. I think that would be a
> pretty smart person.
>  I knew about fizz-buzz but thought it was too difficult...
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 11:58:08 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:58:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>

me = 24 year old with 20 months experience

1 year 1 month - Crap job outta college (very sketchy lead generating company)
7 months - Two man start up (I was the only developer)
Current gig at a small (50 employees), tech company.

>  2 years of experience on a r?sum? doesn't really translate into that much,
> and two years of experience might really have been two times one year of
> experience, and the person might have been pigeonholed into one small area,
> or only have been using do-everything-for-you tools...

I think I've learned an incredibly large amount in the last 20 months,
especially at the start up. During that time I was responsible for
everything front and back, on a very tight deadline. The experience
was incredible and really pushed me to better myself once it became
clear that I had sole responsibility for every technical detail ala
"Somethings broken on the website? It's Jake's fault!".

So, though I ::barely:: meet the criteria of a developer with 2 years
experience, it would appear I'm grossly overqualified for the position
based on the exam. Yes, I was able to answer all of the questions, but
had I been given the exam, I would have immediately recognized that
this is not the gig for me.

Maybe I'm not in the norm, but I think it's important that you don't
just hire people because they meet certain preset criteria. Look for
developers that have a passion for technology and take the time to
fully explore not just the how of a given language, api or toolkit,
but also ask why it was done a certain way. Ask them about their
hobbies at home, what interests them (personally I like toying around
with a Debian install on my NSLU2), I think you'll learn a lot more
about a person's talents when you find out what they do in their free
time and what interests them.

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at altzman.com> wrote:
> on 2008-04-14 10:24 Jake McGraw said the following:
>
>
> > I'd only keep the last two questions:
> > 9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?
> > 10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
> > development?
> >
>
>  Having been on the interviewer side of the desk many many times --
> interviewing well over 100 people for operations, development, and other
> positions -- I have to respectfully disagree.
>
>  2 years of experience on a r?sum? doesn't really translate into that much,
> and two years of experience might really have been two times one year of
> experience, and the person might have been pigeonholed into one small area,
> or only have been using do-everything-for-you tools...
>
>  I have found that many people do NOT gain much general exposure.
>
>  Nonetheless, these last two questions are good, and should be included as
> well to allow candidates to show their stuff since they're open-ended.
>
>
>
> > I think the other questions would be incredibly ineffective in
> > determining the abilities of a possible employee. All of them could be
> > picked up in a matter of hours, while the knowledge and experience
> >
>
>  And yet, you'd like to know that someone you're hiring with "several years'
> experience" doesn't have to learn his ABCs and 123s also.
>
>  If this were a ten-year veteran, I'd still want some few basic-skill
> questions, to make sure that he's still in touch, but obviously I'd want to
> know more about more advanced things; more strategy than tactics, as it
> were.
>
>
>
> > required to answer the last two questions is a far better indicator of
> > of a talented developer. Also, an inability to answer any one of the
> > CSS questions wouldn't necessarily be an indication of lack of talent,
> > I think it took me quite a few months to stop checking my CSS cheat
> > sheet before I memorized Top Right Bottom Left!
> >
>
>  I don't believe that any test of this nature should be strictly
> disqualifying; anyone who uses these blindly (like giving them to an HR
> person and saying "ditch below 70%" automatically) doesn't do himself as
> much good. If you're accustomed to reading r?sum?s, and you're doing phone
> interviews (http://www.jbaltz.com/weblog/2006/10/phone_screens_redux_1.html)
> (in fact, using this type of quiz as part of a phone screen!) you'd be able
> to winnow out the clowns much earlier.
>
>
>
> > Any webmaster/developer with two REAL (full time tech company) years
> > of experience would be able to have a much more in depth conversation
> > about web design philosophy, best practices and commonly accepted
> >
>
>  I think you put too much faith in time-in-grade. To those of us with more
> than a decade of experience doing the same thing, two years just isn't that
> much :-)
>
>  That isn't to say that the questions originally posted aren't a bit
> picayune, only that the idea of a basic-skills test for lower-level (1-3
> years experience) is actually a sound one. "I'd just google it" means that
> the candidate just doesn't have THAT much experience in actually *doing* it.
> (Lord knows that I don't run to google for every little lookup, I've got
> sites I already know and have at my fingertips for mundane tasks, like
> oddball CSS recipes.)
>
>
>
> > - jake
> >
>
>  //jbaltz
>  --
>  jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
>  thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 12:08:43 2008
From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (Guilherme Blanco)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:08:43 -0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48037493.4030400@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<bcb7aa500804140727o391f4bc6he63e07de6f23ed18@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037493.4030400@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <bcb7aa500804140908u7025544aj51f7278c705edd0c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
> Hey Guilherme,
>
>
> > Too focused on CSS.
> >
> >
>
>  I was hoping no one would notice that ;)
>
>
> > HTML is simple, and as you may see, you asked 3 questions, all of them
> > CSS related. Try something more difficult too... one example:
> >
> > <input> is a block element or an inline element?
> >
> >
>  Yes. But what if instead of asking about a particular element,  I asked
> "What's the difference between an inline or block element? How can you
> change it via css?"?
>

Hm... let me try again... =P
"Too focused on CSS."

>
>
> > A single programming question and very simple one. Anyone that has a
> > minimal understand of logic is able to answer that. Put another one,
> > more complex... try 2 questions...
> >
> >
>
>  Ha! One would think, no? All too easy...
>
>  well, check out what my manager said in response:
>
>
> > Thanks for taking care of this. Is the answer to 7 15? Hope so. If so,
> > is that too easy for a programmer?
> > Can you give us an answer sheet?
> >
>  lol
>

rofl

>
> > You should try something to be more written and programming focused
> > too. Try for example to ask for a basic task... for example, given a
> > number, return only the prime numbers.
> >
> >
>
>  What's a prime number? ;)
>

A number that cannot by divided by any other number except 1 and itself.

For your manager... at the top of my head, a small piece of code
(written in normal algorithm form):

declare match

for i := 1 to N do
    match := 0

    for j := 1 to i do
        if i mod j = 0 then
            match := match + 1
        end if
    end for

    if match <= 2 then
        print N
    end if
end for


So, given 10 will return you:

1, 2, 3, 5, 7


>
>
> > Another good way is to do the opposite... put a piece of code and ask
> > for the applicant what does it do, what does it return given "these"
> > parameters...
> >
> >
>
>  That's what I tried to do here. But with a generic syntax.
>
>

Use normal algorithm form.

>
> > Question 9 I'd answer:
> >
> > Why use Flash?
> > There's no need to use flash anywhere.
> > Why not?
> > Everything that is possible to be done in Flash is possible to be done
> > with the combination of HTML, CSS and JavaScript.
> >
> >
>
>  You're hired! ;)
>

Hahaha... ok, ok! =P

>
>
> > As you may see, the question is rather vague... a designer could tell
> > you Why use: Because you do not need to rely of browser
> > inconsistencies. Why not: Flash app size.
> >
> >
>  That would be a good answer as well...
>
>
> > Question 10 is ok.
> >
> >
>
>  WIN!
>


My last job appliance I had 8h to write a full working application of
an address book, with an employee at my side looking at any line I was
writing.
Ah... I had the possibility to use anything I wanted.
The data source was an XML file, no app spec, at least 2 views (table
of all cards and cards view).
The test analised comment ratio, oo level and usability.


You hsould try something like that too.... =)

>
> >
> > That's my 2 cents.... =)
> >
>  :-)
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
Rio de Janeiro - RJ/Brazil

From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Mon Apr 14 12:26:40 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:26:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com>

I'm fond of asking candidates to code something simple on the spot.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From d at ingk.com  Mon Apr 14 12:36:52 2008
From: d at ingk.com (Damion Hankejh (ingk))
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:36:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <005501c89e4d$c0048050$400d80f0$@com>

Fizzbuzz is a good test.  I would not hire a "programmer" if s/he failed to
solve Fizzbuzz in under 5 minutes in your target language(s).  I would also
allow for some minor syntax errors if the solution otherwise worked -
favoring logical thinking over an emphasis on syntax.  Also, while
implementing the modulus operator is more elegant, it is worth noting that
it is not required to solve Fizzbuzz.

 

Regarding CSS, the inheritance question will prove far more indicative of a
programmer's skill than the order of border attributes (syntax again).  It
requires a greater depth of CSS understanding, while Google (and perhaps
del.icio.us) has become the ultimate digital cheat sheet for syntax and I do
not think developers should be slighted for leveraging them.  I also like
the inline vs. stylesheet question as it demonstrates an important grasp of
style overriding. 

 

--

Hankejh, ingk.com

 

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From patrick.fee at baesystems.com  Mon Apr 14 12:53:05 2008
From: patrick.fee at baesystems.com (Fee, Patrick J (US SSA))
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:53:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com><47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org><29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com><48037145.5090103@pitanga.org><e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A3C393C6B74CD34DB6DB76090221017001F29B88@GLDMS00012.goldlnk.rootlnka.net>

I concur with Ed, with one caveat:

When bringing on a new programmer for any contract that interfaces with the government you MAY care about "school, grades, or the results of a test [certification]"  It may be required by the contract, either directly or by limiting the salaries based on education and/or certification.  

I have a compatriot who despises advanced degrees or certs, because he run into too many "paper programmers".  However, I swear to Jobs that he dreams in binary and has developed a "man page" for each of his own day-to-day activities.  But I will never be able to leverage his talents against certain projects because they require certain measurement of skills by cert or degree.

Getting off my soapbox, however, I DO  keep a couple of "what's wrong with this picture" html/php/CF code snippets that stumped certain staff folk in the past.  If they can "find Waldo", they have the skills (and the attention to detail) for which I am looking.


Patrick J. Fee
Manager, Systems Engineering Services
Technology Solutions & Services
Tel: (301) 231-1418
Cell: (240) 401-6820
Fax: (301) 231-2635
Patrick.Fee at BAESystems.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Leadership is solving problems. The day soldiers stop bringing you
their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have
either lost confidence that you can help or concluded you do not care.
Either case is a failure of leadership."
                          --- Colin Powell


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Edward Potter
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 11:47 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test

There is only ONE question to ask, in the immortal words of Steve Jobs:
Have you shipped ANY thing in your life?  :-)

And my only coder question:
How good are you with vi at the command line?

And my only designer question:
Show me cool stuff.

You will SAVE years of HR time with those 3 questions.

 I don't really care where u worked, went to school, grades, or the results of a test. Just show me COOL stuff that you worked on - and can you work 20/30/40 hours straight on a problem, without moaning and groaning about it -  and love doing it?

PS,  TRouBLe   :-)  ed




On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> This was the first time I'd seen the fizz buzz problem, I like it  
> because it can really show what level a programmer is at in only a  
> couple of lines of code, considering there are so many solutions.
>
>  - jake
>
>
>
>  On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
>  >
>  > > I think that the border question is a little specific.  I never 
> memorize  > order of parameters,  I learn the concepts behind it.  
> Knowing which  > position comes first in a border-width command 
> doesn't really demonstrate  > your knowledge of css.
>  > >
>  >
>  >  True indeed.  There's more value in conceptual knowledge than in 
> rote  > memorization of syntax.
>  >  Your inheritance question is indeed better. I'll add it to the next draft.
>  > Thank you.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > > For your programming question, I think someone without 
> programming  > experience could get that :)  > >  >  >  Great. I don't 
> think that would be a problem. I think that would be a  > pretty smart 
> person.
>  >  I knew about fizz-buzz but thought it was too difficult...
>  >
>  >
>  >  _______________________________________________
>  >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List  >  
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  >
>  >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online  >  http://www.nyphpcon.com  >  
> >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP  >  
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>  >
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List  
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP  
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



--
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From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 13:27:38 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:27:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>

Hey Edward Potter,

> And my only coder question:
> How good are you with vi at the command line?
>   

That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more webmasters 
of this ilk around though ;)

> And my only designer question:
> Show me cool stuff.
>   
I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?

-Andr?


From jbaltz at altzman.com  Mon Apr 14 13:59:59 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:59:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48039B9F.4090508@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-14 11:58 Jake McGraw said the following:
> me = 24 year old with 20 months experience

me = older

> 1 year 1 month - Crap job outta college (very sketchy lead generating company)
> 7 months - Two man start up (I was the only developer)
> Current gig at a small (50 employees), tech company.

So, you've got, by your own admission, much less than two years of real 
experience :-) In fact, 20 months of clock time and only 7 months of 
system time...you eloquently prove my point.

> So, though I ::barely:: meet the criteria of a developer with 2 years
> experience, it would appear I'm grossly overqualified for the position
> based on the exam. Yes, I was able to answer all of the questions, but
> had I been given the exam, I would have immediately recognized that
> this is not the gig for me.

You misinterpret the purpose of the exam. The basic skills test is NOT 
meant to provide *you* with a view into day-to-day work. It's meant to 
provide *me* an idea of how much teaching I'm going to have to do to 
make you useful *immediately*, and to do so relatively objectively and 
quickly.

Put yourself in the hiring manager's shoes for a bit. You've received 
dozens of responses (...if you're lucky. Sometimes it's either feast or 
famine, I've posted ads and received hundreds of responses and others 
only received a handful.); you've got to fill the gap you've got soon, 
so you can keep things rolling; you've got only a finite amount of time 
to review things. Anything you can do that is an effective zeroth-order 
clown filter is going to save you time and money. Do you risk missing 
out on the next Linus Torvalds by doing this? Yes, that's a risk you 
take. You need to balance that against a) the amount of time you'd spend 
rigorously interviewing dozens of candidates and b) when you need to 
fill that vacancy.

Obviously for any new job there is a learning curve. But if I have to 
teach you the absolute basics, that makes you much less valuable. And if 
you can't recognize that something is basic, or picayune, you're 
definitely a bit on the green side.

> Maybe I'm not in the norm, but I think it's important that you don't
> just hire people because they meet certain preset criteria. Look for

Well, since I'm the (presumptive) one doing the hiring, allow me to 
decide what's important and what's not, ok?
If I'm looking for a PHP coder, and you can't tell me how to get all the 
keys and values out of an associative array, well, that's a preset 
criterion, and unless you're really stellar in some other 
fashion...thanks for your time.

For my firm, it may be a bit different -- we do a lot of production 
support, so letting someone loose with the enable password/sys 
password/root password on someone else's machines means that I need to 
have a really good idea of what they know and don't know, lest someone 
do a join of two million row tables with no WHERE clause or do a 
'shutdown' on the active ethernet port.

> developers that have a passion for technology and take the time to
> fully explore not just the how of a given language, api or toolkit,
> but also ask why it was done a certain way. Ask them about their
> hobbies at home, what interests them (personally I like toying around
> with a Debian install on my NSLU2), I think you'll learn a lot more
> about a person's talents when you find out what they do in their free
> time and what interests them.

I do all that too...AFTER I find out what basic skills the prospective 
brings to the table. "What do you read to keep current?" "How would you 
handle $current_problem_we_have" "What steps would you take to debug 
$weird_intermittent_issue" -- all things used to elicit actual cerebral 
activity.

However, doing those things is a waste of my time if I'm looking for a 
PHP coder and you don't know basic PHP stuff, or an HTML coder if you 
don't know the basics of the DOM (or how to separate content from 
layout), or ... you get the idea. I hope.

> - jake

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 14:15:23 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:15:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <A3C393C6B74CD34DB6DB76090221017001F29B88@GLDMS00012.goldlnk.rootlnka.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com><47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org><29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com><48037145.5090103@pitanga.org><e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<A3C393C6B74CD34DB6DB76090221017001F29B88@GLDMS00012.goldlnk.rootlnka.net>
Message-ID: <48039F3B.3090205@pitanga.org>


> When bringing on a new programmer for any contract that interfaces with the government you MAY care about "school, grades, or the results of a test [certification]"  It may be required by the contract, either directly or by limiting the salaries based on education and/or certification.  
>   

Tangentially: in your experience how have those holding industry 
certifications fared compared with those holding more traditional 
academic degrees?
I'm thinking of a B.A. holder with a Red Hat Certified 
Technician/Engineer vs. M.S. degree holder...
(pls feel free to ignore if you feel this is ot)

Also works with: B.A. + certified Zend programmer vs. M.S.

> But I will never be able to leverage his talents against certain projects because they require certain measurement of skills by cert or degree.
>   

Is he considering getting those requirements? again, just curious... 

> I DO  keep a couple of "what's wrong with this picture" html/php/CF code snippets that stumped certain staff folk in the past.  If they can "find Waldo", they have the skills (and the attention to detail) for which I am looking.
>   

Please share one later if you can :)

-Andr?


From matt at atopia.net  Mon Apr 14 14:19:06 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:19:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>

So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.  But I 
don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one defend 
themselves there?

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Andr? Pitanga wrote:

> Hey Edward Potter,
>
>> And my only coder question:
>> How good are you with vi at the command line?
>> 
>
> That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more webmasters of 
> this ilk around though ;)
>
>> And my only designer question:
>> Show me cool stuff.
>> 
> I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
>
> -Andr?
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
> !DSPAM:48039f90367171377085587!
>

From ramons at gmx.net  Mon Apr 14 14:20:59 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:20:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <4803A08B.8030503@gmx.net>

Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> So, we're hiring a new webmaster here at work and I was tasked with 
> producing a simple technical test. The person is supposed to have two 
> years experience as a web dev. There's three parts: html, css, and 
> webmaster questions. What do you think?
> (bonus: I'll tell you what my manager thought)

I think this test is stupid. Sorry for being so blunt, but I'd pass it and I 
think I'd be the worst webmaster you ever had.

> HTML

I'd rather ask the candidate where they'd look that up in case they don't 
know. I'd expect that they mention one of the leading XHTML references. The 
answers to these questions can be answered by someone who is often broed and 
looks at the source of web pages in notepad.

> CSS
OK, this is a bit more challenging, but I'd rather ask the same question as 
mentioned for XHTML (and make sure they know that they should use XHTML and 
not just HTML). Sometimes crafting a CSS by hand is useful, but anyone who 
seriously wants to design pages is likely to use a design tool that comes with 
a decent CSS editor. I'd rather ask them which settings to change to get a 
desired effect rather than rattling down what the correct format is. That is 
something I'd trust a piece of software to do it correctly.

> PROGRAMMING
> 
> 7) a and b are variables.

That depends, in PHP you'd get a syntax error right in the first line and both 
a and b remain undefined. Some months ago we had a very lively discussion 
about how to hire a PHP developer. You may want to look through the list 
archives. I think we agreed in the end that this question is pointless. I also 
wonder if you are looking for a web master who runs and configures your 
servers or if you are looking for a web developer who creates content and 
writes scripts or if you are looking for both.


> 
> WEBMASTER
> 
> 8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
> kilobytes)? How are the factors related?

That depends. Are you serving mainly corporate clients with big fat pipes 
coming in or the rural farmer with a 9600 baud dial-up modem?

> 
> 9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?

Because there is now Silverlight? Now that Microsoft copied Flash everyone 
goes out of their way to diss Flash. I must say that this is one of the better 
questons for a web developer / web designer. The web master can care less.

> 
> 10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
> development?

Even better to ask, why would one want to not separate it. I'd rather hire 
someone who can come up with a plausible answer to that.


I think test like this one don't prove anything. And if it is for a web 
master, you forgot to add some hardware questions as well as questions about 
how to configure Apache, backup strategies, etc.

If I'd take this test during an interview I'd be wondering quite a bit if you 
even know for which position you are hiring.

Sorry for being so harsh.

	David





From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 13:56:52 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:56:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <bcb7aa500804140908u7025544aj51f7278c705edd0c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<bcb7aa500804140727o391f4bc6he63e07de6f23ed18@mail.gmail.com>	<48037493.4030400@pitanga.org>
	<bcb7aa500804140908u7025544aj51f7278c705edd0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48039AE4.4040200@pitanga.org>

Hey Guilherme Blanco,
> My last job appliance I had 8h to write a full working application of
> an address book, with an employee at my side looking at any line I was
> writing.
> Ah... I had the possibility to use anything I wanted.
> The data source was an XML file, no app spec, at least 2 views (table
> of all cards and cards view).
> The test analised comment ratio, oo level and usability.

This for me would be the ultimate test for a web programmer, specially 
the attention to comment ratio, etc.

Was there a time limit? I guess I would need at least 1-2 hours.  (I'm 
not too keen on pulling data from XML nodes by heart. It would be easier 
for me to pull it from a CSV.)

What makes the webmaster position interesting is that you kinda need to 
be a triple threat: HTML/CSS/front-end stuff + coding (php, 
actionscript, javascript, etc) + basic sysadmin stuff (at least FTP, 
htaccess, etc.)

So if we emphasize programming too much do we leave out front-end and 
server stuff??

-Andr?


From rolan at omnistep.com  Mon Apr 14 14:26:19 2008
From: rolan at omnistep.com (Rolan Yang)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:26:19 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <4803A1CB.3090107@omnistep.com>

Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
>
When the background page is blue...

~Rolan


From ramons at gmx.net  Mon Apr 14 14:27:48 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:27:48 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48037931.3010001@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<480373A6.70702@projectskyline.com>
	<48037931.3010001@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <4803A224.9000805@gmx.net>

Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>> You can also request they submit code when they apply for the position.
> 
> But in that case, couldn't a malicious candidate grab code from somewhere?

They of course would need to be able to explain it. If they can do that, who 
cares from where they copied it unless it violates licensing terms.


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 14:28:18 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:28:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org> <20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>

First candidate finished his exam:

Answer to 7) a= 0.5, b=1

I'm not kidding...

ps. I'm not hating.  I'm sharing this with the community because I think 
it's valuable info.


From ramons at gmx.net  Mon Apr 14 14:32:14 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:32:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <4803A32E.4060800@gmx.net>

Andr? Pitanga wrote:
  > I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?

When the page background is blue?


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 13:41:21 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:41:21 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48039741.2030603@pitanga.org>

Hey Jake McGraw,
> Yes, I was able to answer all of the questions, but
> had I been given the exam, I would have immediately recognized that
> this is not the gig for me.
>   
Why?  We're not trying to break people down with this test, you know?
You sound exactly like the type of candidate we're trying to reach...

> Maybe I'm not in the norm, but I think it's important that you don't
> just hire people because they meet certain preset criteria.

Totally, absolutely agree.  It's hard to standardize this, though...
Multiple choice exams are clearly a poor substitute for subjective 
understanding.

> Ask them about their
> hobbies at home, what interests them (personally I like toying around
> with a Debian install on my NSLU2), I think you'll learn a lot more
> about a person's talents when you find out what they do in their free
> time and what interests them.
>   

This is true.   My most cherished tech project is, for example, 
tinkering with my slackware workstation at home.

So, do you suggest we just scrap the test instead?

-Andr?


From ben at projectskyline.com  Mon Apr 14 14:57:44 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:57:44 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>

I use emacs

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.  
> But I don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one 
> defend themselves there?
>
> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>
>> Hey Edward Potter,
>>
>>> And my only coder question:
>>> How good are you with vi at the command line?
>>>
>>
>> That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more 
>> webmasters of this ilk around though ;)
>>
>>> And my only designer question:
>>> Show me cool stuff.
>>>
>> I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
>> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
>>
>> -Andr?
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>> !DSPAM:48039f90367171377085587!
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php


From ashaw at polymerdb.org  Mon Apr 14 14:59:13 2008
From: ashaw at polymerdb.org (Allen Shaw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:59:13 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>

Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> 4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
>       a) body {color: black}
>       b) body:color=black
>       c) {body:color=black}
>       d) {body color:black}
>
Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
body {color: black;}

- Allen

-- 
Allen Shaw
slidePresenter (http://slides.sourceforge.net)



From jbaltz at altzman.com  Mon Apr 14 15:00:38 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:00:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4803A9D6.5070507@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-14 14:19 Matt Juszczak said the following:
> So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.  But 
> I don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one defend 
> themselves there?

"But I'm just fine with ed(1)"

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From susan_shemin at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 14 15:02:32 2008
From: susan_shemin at yahoo.com (Susan Shemin)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <210241.52045.qm@web50210.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

A better test would be to give a line of HTML code or a CSS definition and ask the person to describe what it does.  Anyone can look up code from a book or the internet, but they have to understand the code's usage to look for the answer.

For instance put form code on the test with an image for the submit button and ask what displays.

For CSS, give div style code with an index attribute and ask what the index is for.

For Javascript, use the onblur event in the code and ask when it's triggered.

Susan
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From davehauenstein at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 15:17:20 2008
From: davehauenstein at gmail.com (David Hauenstein)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:17:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <D06DA167-AAEA-4471-A3B0-5F434643DB20@gmail.com>

you cant be well versed in *nix unless you know vi.

On Apr 14, 2008, at 2:19 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.   
> But I don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one  
> defend themselves there?
>
> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>
>> Hey Edward Potter,
>>
>>> And my only coder question:
>>> How good are you with vi at the command line?
>>
>> That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more  
>> webmasters of this ilk around though ;)
>>
>>> And my only designer question:
>>> Show me cool stuff.
>> I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
>> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
>>
>> -Andr?
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>> !DSPAM:48039f90367171377085587!
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Mon Apr 14 15:24:18 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:24:18 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4803AF62.3050201@o2group.com>

Start talking about emacs for three hours?

-Tim

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.  
> But I don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one 
> defend themselves there?
>
> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>
>> Hey Edward Potter,
>>
>>> And my only coder question:
>>> How good are you with vi at the command line?
>>>
>>
>> That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more 
>> webmasters of this ilk around though ;)
>>
>>> And my only designer question:
>>> Show me cool stuff.
>>>
>> I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
>> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
>>
>> -Andr?
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>> !DSPAM:48039f90367171377085587!
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 15:25:37 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:25:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A08B.8030503@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<4803A08B.8030503@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4803AFB1.1090804@pitanga.org>

Hey David Krings,

Thanks for the awesome, sometimes passionate, responses!

> I'd pass it and I think I'd be the worst webmaster you ever had.

The test is non eliminatory, and is not the sole factor being 
considered.  It's just a basic test...
Why do you say you'd be the worst webmaster we ever had? We've had 
*terrible* webmasters in the past! You'd have your work cut out for you! lol

>
> I'd rather ask the candidate where they'd look that up in case they 
> don't know. I'd expect that they mention one of the leading XHTML 
> references. The answers to these questions can be answered by someone 
> who is often broed and looks at the source of web pages in notepad.

"often bored and looks at the source of web pages in notepad"
Great! This is exactly who we want to hire! I'm adding this to the job 
description... ;)

> anyone who seriously wants to design pages is likely to use a design 
> tool that comes with a decent CSS editor. 

Sorry, David Krings, but this is not true. 
Many times you won't have access to a wysiwyg tool.  You may not even 
have access to X (i.e. bash via ssh), and still need to perform work.
What would you do in that situation?


> That is something I'd trust a piece of software to do it correctly.

lol :-D  +1funny!

> That depends, in PHP you'd get a syntax error right in the first line 
> and both a and b remain undefined. 

Do you think you could make sense of it and answer it correctly 
nevertheless, though? It's not meant to be PHP specific...

> Some months ago we had a very lively discussion about how to hire a 
> PHP developer. You may want to look through the list archives. I think 
> we agreed in the end that this question is pointless. 

Sorry I missed that. I will look into it. Thanks.

> I also wonder if you are looking for a web master who runs and 
> configures your servers or if you are looking for a web developer who 
> creates content and writes scripts or if you are looking for both.

Great question!

This is the heart of the question.

Ideally a webmaster will do both (code and admin).  This is what makes 
the job really interesting, in my opinion. This is what attracted me to 
being a webmaster to begin with.
But lately I've been noticing that the profession "webmaster" is 
becoming... old-fashioned?

I attended the "future of web design" conference in NY last year, and a 
constant theme across many speakers was "the need for specialization".

It was stated that webmasters are a dying breed, and that now one should 
hire a web designer, a web developer, and a train a monkey for sysadmin. 
(jk)

I think webmasters need to stand up and be proud of their triple threat 
status!

So, yeah, where have all the webmasters gone?

-Andr?


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 15:06:34 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:06:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4803AB3A.3070902@pitanga.org>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.  
> But I don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one 
> defend themselves there?

Just lie...  ;-)

(I kid...)

I guess you could say "anything but dreamweaver" (hired. went on to grok 
vim later. lived happily ever after)

or say "I used to code in emacs but it wasn't configurable enough, so 
I'm writing my own text editor in lisp..." (not hired. escorted out of 
building. later hired as contractor)

better: "I code longhand using pencil and square-paper. By candle light. 
Meet the debugger <shows eraser>"  (hired for research computing dept.)

The real question is not which editor you use to code. It's what browser 
you use to surf. And the answer is obviously: lynx! :-)

-Andr?




From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 15:35:26 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:35:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A224.9000805@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<480373A6.70702@projectskyline.com>	<48037931.3010001@pitanga.org>
	<4803A224.9000805@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4803B1FE.9020807@pitanga.org>

David Krings wrote:
>> But in that case, couldn't a malicious candidate grab code from 
>> somewhere?
>
> They of course would need to be able to explain it. If they can do 
> that, who cares from where they copied it unless it violates licensing 
> terms.

Oh, of course, they'd have to explain it...

You know, this is actually the best idea. Because I myself can explain 
code about an order of magnitude more complex than I'm able to produce, 
on the spot, while nervous, etc...
And after all, in this day and age of mash-ups, open-source apps, etc, 
isn't understanding the code what matters? Right on...

-Andr?


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 15:37:27 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:37:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48039B9F.4090508@altzman.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<48039B9F.4090508@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804141237k76c3c70ajf1ad1c2856c46134@mail.gmail.com>

I wasn't out to dissuade anyone from utilizing some kind of pseudo
code testing, I'm just trying to offer an alternative point of view,
the receiving end of interviews (interviewee if you will).

In my, admittedly limited experience, I've found company interviews
that start, contain, or end with, "Hi! Here's a computer / piece of
paper, you'll have 45 minutes to complete this exercise consisting
almost entirely of php.net/[insert function name here]", represents a
company on the path to fail, one which I ended up in because I didn't
know any better, two I rejected offers from.

Here's my point of view: if you (as a recruiter) can come up with
nothing better than a rehash of references and a test of memorization
as the gateway for a new hire, then what kind of quality can I expect
in the rest of the company? Just as everyone here is putting the
emphasis on finding the right candidate, weeding out the weak ones,
I'd like to offer the idea that maybe each candidate is trying to find
the right company, and that puts you (the interviewer) on the spot.

I'm not trying to leave you with the impression that Millennials are
ingrates (compared to what, Gen-Xers?), but that there are many
options available to us, applying for a job is trivial thanks to the
internet/head hunters, and supply (of us) is limited. I think that you
would be doing your company a disservice if you didn't consider this
before giving a candidate a test that makes them reconsider their
choice to apply (or even showup) by insulting their intelligence.

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at altzman.com> wrote:
> on 2008-04-14 11:58 Jake McGraw said the following:
>
>
> > me = 24 year old with 20 months experience
> >
>
>  me = older
>
>
>
> > 1 year 1 month - Crap job outta college (very sketchy lead generating
> company)
> > 7 months - Two man start up (I was the only developer)
> > Current gig at a small (50 employees), tech company.
> >
>
>  So, you've got, by your own admission, much less than two years of real
> experience :-) In fact, 20 months of clock time and only 7 months of system
> time...you eloquently prove my point.
>
>
>
> > So, though I ::barely:: meet the criteria of a developer with 2 years
> > experience, it would appear I'm grossly overqualified for the position
> > based on the exam. Yes, I was able to answer all of the questions, but
> > had I been given the exam, I would have immediately recognized that
> > this is not the gig for me.
> >
>
>  You misinterpret the purpose of the exam. The basic skills test is NOT
> meant to provide *you* with a view into day-to-day work. It's meant to
> provide *me* an idea of how much teaching I'm going to have to do to make
> you useful *immediately*, and to do so relatively objectively and quickly.
>
>  Put yourself in the hiring manager's shoes for a bit. You've received
> dozens of responses (...if you're lucky. Sometimes it's either feast or
> famine, I've posted ads and received hundreds of responses and others only
> received a handful.); you've got to fill the gap you've got soon, so you can
> keep things rolling; you've got only a finite amount of time to review
> things. Anything you can do that is an effective zeroth-order clown filter
> is going to save you time and money. Do you risk missing out on the next
> Linus Torvalds by doing this? Yes, that's a risk you take. You need to
> balance that against a) the amount of time you'd spend rigorously
> interviewing dozens of candidates and b) when you need to fill that vacancy.
>
>  Obviously for any new job there is a learning curve. But if I have to teach
> you the absolute basics, that makes you much less valuable. And if you can't
> recognize that something is basic, or picayune, you're definitely a bit on
> the green side.
>
>
>
> > Maybe I'm not in the norm, but I think it's important that you don't
> > just hire people because they meet certain preset criteria. Look for
> >
>
>  Well, since I'm the (presumptive) one doing the hiring, allow me to decide
> what's important and what's not, ok?
>  If I'm looking for a PHP coder, and you can't tell me how to get all the
> keys and values out of an associative array, well, that's a preset
> criterion, and unless you're really stellar in some other fashion...thanks
> for your time.
>
>  For my firm, it may be a bit different -- we do a lot of production
> support, so letting someone loose with the enable password/sys password/root
> password on someone else's machines means that I need to have a really good
> idea of what they know and don't know, lest someone do a join of two million
> row tables with no WHERE clause or do a 'shutdown' on the active ethernet
> port.
>
>
>
> > developers that have a passion for technology and take the time to
> > fully explore not just the how of a given language, api or toolkit,
> > but also ask why it was done a certain way. Ask them about their
> > hobbies at home, what interests them (personally I like toying around
> > with a Debian install on my NSLU2), I think you'll learn a lot more
> > about a person's talents when you find out what they do in their free
> > time and what interests them.
> >
>
>  I do all that too...AFTER I find out what basic skills the prospective
> brings to the table. "What do you read to keep current?" "How would you
> handle $current_problem_we_have" "What steps would you take to debug
> $weird_intermittent_issue" -- all things used to elicit actual cerebral
> activity.
>
>  However, doing those things is a waste of my time if I'm looking for a PHP
> coder and you don't know basic PHP stuff, or an HTML coder if you don't know
> the basics of the DOM (or how to separate content from layout), or ... you
> get the idea. I hope.
>
>
>
>
> > - jake
> >
>
>  //jbaltz
>  --
>  jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
>  thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 15:40:18 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:40:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com> <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804141240t640a9195i60a3695dd35c0a2c@mail.gmail.com>

On man, I should have kept my mouth shut about interviewees rights.

;-P

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
> First candidate finished his exam:
>
>  Answer to 7) a= 0.5, b=1
>
>  I'm not kidding...
>
>  ps. I'm not hating.  I'm sharing this with the community because I think
> it's valuable info.
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 15:45:51 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:45:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48039741.2030603@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<48039741.2030603@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804141245w534412bax3ac26d7cb24d75bc@mail.gmail.com>

For all the debate (preaching) that has taken place, I honestly
couldn't answer your question without a clearer job description, like
what exactly will be the responsibilities of this new hire?

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
> Hey Jake McGraw,
>
>
> > Yes, I was able to answer all of the questions, but
> > had I been given the exam, I would have immediately recognized that
> > this is not the gig for me.
> >
> >
>  Why?  We're not trying to break people down with this test, you know?
>  You sound exactly like the type of candidate we're trying to reach...
>
>
>
> > Maybe I'm not in the norm, but I think it's important that you don't
> > just hire people because they meet certain preset criteria.
> >
>
>  Totally, absolutely agree.  It's hard to standardize this, though...
>  Multiple choice exams are clearly a poor substitute for subjective
> understanding.
>
>
>
> > Ask them about their
> > hobbies at home, what interests them (personally I like toying around
> > with a Debian install on my NSLU2), I think you'll learn a lot more
> > about a person's talents when you find out what they do in their free
> > time and what interests them.
> >
> >
>
>  This is true.   My most cherished tech project is, for example, tinkering
> with my slackware workstation at home.
>
>  So, do you suggest we just scrap the test instead?
>
>  -Andr?
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 15:46:34 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:46:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A32E.4060800@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<4803A32E.4060800@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4803B49A.2070307@pitanga.org>

@David Krings and Rolan

hired and hired ;)

>> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
> When the page background is blue? 



From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 15:51:58 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:51:58 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>

http://xkcd.com/378/

I use Eclipse + PDT, guess I'm a newb.

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com> wrote:
> I use emacs
>
>  Matt Juszczak wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.  But I
> don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one defend
> themselves there?
> >
> > On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Hey Edward Potter,
> > >
> > >
> > > > And my only coder question:
> > > > How good are you with vi at the command line?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more webmasters
> of this ilk around though ;)
> > >
> > >
> > > > And my only designer question:
> > > > Show me cool stuff.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
> > > When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
> > >
> > > -Andr?
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > >
> > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> > >
> > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > >
> > >
> > > !DSPAM:48039f90367171377085587!
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 15:53:56 2008
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:53:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
Message-ID: <29da5d150804141253y7a6e2cf2qa1ddfce993dcf781@mail.gmail.com>

not if its the last element in the block

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Allen Shaw <ashaw at polymerdb.org> wrote:

> Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>
> > 4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
> >      a) body {color: black}
> >      b) body:color=black
> >      c) {body:color=black}
> >      d) {body color:black}
> >
> >  Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
> body {color: black;}
>
> - Allen
>
> --
> Allen Shaw
> slidePresenter (http://slides.sourceforge.net)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
Brian O'Connor
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From kenrbnsn at rbnsn.com  Mon Apr 14 16:24:15 2008
From: kenrbnsn at rbnsn.com (Ken Robinson)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:24:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
Message-ID: <20080414162415.b8h6ypp48wo8k8k4@www.rbnsn.com>

Quoting Allen Shaw <ashaw at polymerdb.org>:

> Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>> 4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
>>      a) body {color: black}
>>      b) body:color=black
>>      c) {body:color=black}
>>      d) {body color:black}
>>
> Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
> body {color: black;}

CSS only requires the semi-colon when there is more than one statement  
in the block.

This is ok:
body {
    color: black
}

This is not ok:
body {
    color: black
    background-color: white;
}

Ken



From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 15:56:58 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:56:58 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
Message-ID: <4803B70A.3090307@pitanga.org>

Hey Allen Shaw,
> Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>> 4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
>>       a) body {color: black}
>>       b) body:color=black
>>       c) {body:color=black}
>>       d) {body color:black}
>>
> Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
> body {color: black;}
>
> - Allen
>

According to http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html  you are right.

It states that "A declaration block starts with a left curly brace ({) 
and ends with the matching right curly brace (}). In between there must 
be a list of zero or more semicolon-separated (;) declarations."

But...



From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 15:58:07 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:58:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
Message-ID: <4803B74F.1050707@pitanga.org>


> Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
> body {color: black;}
>
> - Allen
>

The following is "valid" CSS as well:

> |
> p[example="public class foo\
> {\
>     private int x;\
> \
>     foo(int x) {\
>         this.x = x;\
>     }\
> \
> }"] { color: red }|

-Andr?


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 16:08:09 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:08:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <210241.52045.qm@web50210.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <210241.52045.qm@web50210.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4803B9A9.1000905@pitanga.org>

Susan Shemin wrote:
> For CSS, give div style code with an index attribute and ask what the 
> index is for.

You mean like z-index?
-Andr?


From rotsen at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 16:31:56 2008
From: rotsen at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=E9stor?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:31:56 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <a304e2d60804141331k6a45939enfa33c445a4699688@mail.gmail.com>

This seem to be a test more for a front end person than a back end
programmer.
A lot of this stuff I have done but I do not remember it.  I think I would
fail this test
without a book around.

I went to an interview once for a Perl programmer and they gave me a test
like
this and I said I will not pass the test without my perl book.  The guy let
me use his
perl book and I pass the test.  I do not have the commands memorized but I
do
know what I need to do to get things done.  I was offered the job and I
turned it down
because I took a another job doing more C programming

I probably failed your test but I can not afford to take a pay cut (ha, ha,
ha..)

I have been doing this for several years since I stopped programming in C
and my answers are embedded.

N?stor :-)

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:

> So, we're hiring a new webmaster here at work and I was tasked with
> producing a simple technical test. The person is supposed to have two years
> experience as a web dev. There's three parts: html, css, and webmaster
> questions. What do you think?
> (bonus: I'll tell you what my manager thought)
>
> HTML
>
> 1) Which HTML attribute is used to define inline styles?
>      a) font
>      b) styles
>      c) css
>      d) text
>      e) style

I think is e

>
>
> 2) What is the correct HTML for referring to an external style sheet?
>      a) <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>      b) <style src="mainstyle.css">
>      c) <stylesheet>mainstyle.css</stylesheet>
>      d) <link url="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">

I will guess a

>
>
> 3) Which HTML tag is used to define an internal style sheet?
>      a) <script>
>      b) <css>
>      c) <stylesheet>
>      d) <style>

d

>
>
> CSS
>
> 4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
>      a) body {color: black}
>      b) body:color=black
>      c) {body:color=black}
>      d) {body color:black}

Without looking at the book I have not idea

>
>
> 5) How does one set a border like this:
>
>   The top border = 10 pixels, The bottom border = 5 pixels, The left
> border = 20 pixels, The right border = 1pixel.
>
>      a) border-width:10px 20px 5px 1px
>      b) border-width:10px 1px 5px 20px
>      c) border-width:10px 5px 20px 1px
>      d) border-width:5px 20px 10px 1px

I remember that this is tricky because is like top bottom left right

>
>
> 6) What are the three methods for using style sheets with a web page
>      a) Dreamweaver, GoLive or FrontPage
>      b) In-Line, External or Embedded
>      c) Handcoded, Database-driven or WYSIWYG

c

>
>
> PROGRAMMING
>
> 7) a and b are variables.
>
>   a = 10
>   b = 20
>   a = b
>
>   The new values of a and b are, respectively:

a = b= 20

>
>
> WEBMASTER
>
> 8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
> kilobytes)? How are the factors related?

The market that you are dealing with but the default should 800x600

>
>
> 9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?

use flash to be fancy.  Why not?, becuase I have never used it

>
>
> 10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
> desvelopment?

Becaue is easier for human readability and to maintain

>
>
>
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From rotsen at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 16:37:12 2008
From: rotsen at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=E9stor?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:37:12 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com> <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <a304e2d60804141337x47a4085aqa220e1a1a8095851@mail.gmail.com>

He is not a programmer is he can not understand that.  The person could be a
designer.

It depends what you want them to do.  IF you want them to do back end work
they better get the answer correct.

But if you want them to do mainly front end work/design web pages then can
get this question wrong and still be great designers.

N?stor :-)

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:

> First candidate finished his exam:
>
> Answer to 7) a= 0.5, b=1
>
> I'm not kidding...
>
> ps. I'm not hating.  I'm sharing this with the community because I think
> it's valuable info.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
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From jbaltz at altzman.com  Mon Apr 14 16:49:41 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:49:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804141237k76c3c70ajf1ad1c2856c46134@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<48039B9F.4090508@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804141237k76c3c70ajf1ad1c2856c46134@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4803C365.1050702@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-14 15:37 Jake McGraw said the following:
> I wasn't out to dissuade anyone from utilizing some kind of pseudo
> code testing, I'm just trying to offer an alternative point of view,
> the receiving end of interviews (interviewee if you will).

Certainly your viewpoint is valid, and valued.

> In my, admittedly limited experience, I've found company interviews
> that start, contain, or end with, "Hi! Here's a computer / piece of
> paper, you'll have 45 minutes to complete this exercise consisting
> almost entirely of php.net/[insert function name here]", represents a
> company on the path to fail, one which I ended up in because I didn't
> know any better, two I rejected offers from.

Yes, well, that's NOT what we're talking about. But those companies do 
exist, and it behooves you to understand what they're thinking. And also 
consider the whole fizzbuzz 
(http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html) problem.

> Here's my point of view: if you (as a recruiter) can come up with
> nothing better than a rehash of references and a test of memorization
> as the gateway for a new hire, then what kind of quality can I expect
> in the rest of the company? Just as everyone here is putting the

Well, gee, it could be that the HR guy is somewhat divorced from the 
actual development team; or that he's the first gateway in; or that he's 
a recruiter from a firm and not the actual principal at all, and uses 
the results for many of his clients!

> emphasis on finding the right candidate, weeding out the weak ones,
> I'd like to offer the idea that maybe each candidate is trying to find
> the right company, and that puts you (the interviewer) on the spot.

That's all well and good from both sides: if you wouldn't like it here, 
it's far more likely you'll spend your time looking for your next 
position. I always open the floor to questions from the interviewee; 
what he/she *asks* us is often about as enlightening as how he/she 
answers us.

> I'm not trying to leave you with the impression that Millennials are
> ingrates (compared to what, Gen-Xers?), but that there are many
> options available to us, applying for a job is trivial thanks to the
> internet/head hunters, and supply (of us) is limited. I think that you

In fact, the triviality of application is a sword that cuts both ways: 
because of it, people have had to develop these semi-automated methods 
of separating wheat from chaff because so many people use scattershot 
methods of applying for positions, rather than apply for something 
appropriate.

> would be doing your company a disservice if you didn't consider this
> before giving a candidate a test that makes them reconsider their
> choice to apply (or even showup) by insulting their intelligence.

I, personally, have told recruiters and/or hiring managers: "I don't 
take written tests" when I applied for positions. At that time, at my 
stage in life, if I wasn't talking to a principal, or my CV didn't stand 
on its own, I could pass on the job. That was my decision, and I'm sure 
that I missed out on a few good opportunities. Maybe I was just being a 
prima donna. However, I paid my dues a few times, and I've got the 
references to back myself up, so I can take that chance.

**HOWEVER**, were I applying for some entry-level position, I'd expect 
to be tested on the basics, perhaps *even with a rudimentary written 
test*, and that any company that DIDN'T was showing lack of due 
diligence (read: malfeasance). The industry is rife with these stories: 
dailywtf posts them almost daily ("Tales from the Interview"), 
_Peopleware_ devotes a whole chapter to it ("Audition").

The written test that Andr? originally posted was flawed in 
implementation, but totally sound in theory. It merely needed refining 
(and maybe not even that much). Remember: it is meant as a very very 
gross filter, just to totally weed out the completely incompetent who 
make it past your HR department or cursory scan at a CV.

I said it before and I'll reiterate it: yes, doing this kind of 
pre-testing might make me miss out on hiring the next RMS or Joel 
Spolsky, but I have to weigh that against other very compelling needs 
(like if I spend two days interviewing only 5 candidates, I have lots 
two days of other work that I need to do for clients, etc.).

p.s. top-posting is nasty.

> - jake

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 16:51:44 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:51:44 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804141237k76c3c70ajf1ad1c2856c46134@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>	<48039B9F.4090508@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804141237k76c3c70ajf1ad1c2856c46134@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4803C3E0.8080801@pitanga.org>

Jake McGraw wrote:
> giving a candidate a test that makes them reconsider their
> choice to apply (or even showup) by insulting their intelligence.
>
> - jake

That's actually my main concern, Jake. There was definitely no intention 
to insult anybody's intelligence.
I've been on the receiving end of the interview love a few times and did 
feel mildly insulted by certain questions and attitudes, though.


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 16:03:35 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:03:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
Message-ID: <4803B897.7050902@pitanga.org>

Allen Shaw wrote:
> Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
> body {color: black;}
>
> - Allen

Yet, yes, semi-colons are helpful, and one must be aware of their impact 
in certain situations, like error handling, for example:

"User agents must ignore an invalid at-keyword together with everything 
following it, up to and including the next semicolon (;) or block 
({...}), whichever comes first."

-Andr?



From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 17:02:05 2008
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:02:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>
	<e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29da5d150804141402l2a8e2ea3va37e8a68359d5804@mail.gmail.com>

i prefer gedit :)

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://xkcd.com/378/
>
> I use Eclipse + PDT, guess I'm a newb.
>
> - jake
>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com> wrote:
> > I use emacs
> >
> >  Matt Juszczak wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.
>  But I
> > don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one defend
> > themselves there?
> > >
> > > On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey Edward Potter,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > And my only coder question:
> > > > > How good are you with vi at the command line?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more
> webmasters
> > of this ilk around though ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > And my only designer question:
> > > > > Show me cool stuff.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
> > > > When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
> > > >
> > > > -Andr?
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > >
> > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > > > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> > > >
> > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > !DSPAM:48039f90367171377085587!
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > >
> > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> > >
> > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
Brian O'Connor
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From ashaw at polymerdb.org  Mon Apr 14 17:02:14 2008
From: ashaw at polymerdb.org (Allen Shaw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:02:14 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150804141253y7a6e2cf2qa1ddfce993dcf781@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
	<29da5d150804141253y7a6e2cf2qa1ddfce993dcf781@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4803C656.9070301@polymerdb.org>

Brian O'Connor wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Allen Shaw <ashaw at polymerdb.org> wrote:
>   
>>  Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
>>     
> not if its the last element in the block
>   
Okay, I'll take that.  Back to my day job...

- A.

-- 
Allen Shaw
slidePresenter (http://slides.sourceforge.net)



From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 17:09:40 2008
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:09:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <20080414162415.b8h6ypp48wo8k8k4@www.rbnsn.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<4803A981.8010409@polymerdb.org>
	<20080414162415.b8h6ypp48wo8k8k4@www.rbnsn.com>
Message-ID: <29da5d150804141409v48706bacj99ae80a2183d44db@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, but this would be okay:

body {
  color: black;
  background-color: white
}

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 4:24 PM, Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn at rbnsn.com> wrote:

> Quoting Allen Shaw <ashaw at polymerdb.org>:
>
>  Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> >
> > > 4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
> > >     a) body {color: black}
> > >     b) body:color=black
> > >     c) {body:color=black}
> > >     d) {body color:black}
> > >
> > >  Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
> > body {color: black;}
> >
>
> CSS only requires the semi-colon when there is more than one statement in
> the block.
>
> This is ok:
> body {
>   color: black
> }
>
> This is not ok:
> body {
>   color: black
>   background-color: white;
> }
>
> Ken
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
Brian O'Connor
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From ramons at gmx.net  Mon Apr 14 17:38:07 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:38:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803AFB1.1090804@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<4803A08B.8030503@gmx.net>
	<4803AFB1.1090804@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <4803CEBF.7030604@gmx.net>

Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> Hey David Krings,
> 
> Thanks for the awesome, sometimes passionate, responses!

You are welcome, passionate responses are my speciality.


>> I'd pass it and I think I'd be the worst webmaster you ever had.
> 
> The test is non eliminatory, and is not the sole factor being 
> considered.  It's just a basic test...
> Why do you say you'd be the worst webmaster we ever had? We've had 
> *terrible* webmasters in the past! You'd have your work cut out for you! 
> lol

Because I run one web server at home using the prepackaged system from 
Apachefriends.org. I let others think for me and they even do it for free. The 
nice thing is that they even do a pretty decent job.


>> I'd rather ask the candidate where they'd look that up in case they 
>> don't know. I'd expect that they mention one of the leading XHTML 
>> references. The answers to these questions can be answered by someone 
>> who is often broed and looks at the source of web pages in notepad.
> 
> "often bored and looks at the source of web pages in notepad"
> Great! This is exactly who we want to hire! I'm adding this to the job 
> description... ;)

This is how I "learned". I found out that way what needs to go into the header 
section and started to just copy and paste it. By now I have some idea what 
the different pieces mean, but that's about it.

>> anyone who seriously wants to design pages is likely to use a design 
>> tool that comes with a decent CSS editor. 
> 
> Sorry, David Krings, but this is not true. Many times you won't have 
> access to a wysiwyg tool.  You may not even have access to X (i.e. bash 
> via ssh), and still need to perform work.
> What would you do in that situation?

See, that is where I am not sure who you are looking for. Are you looking for 
a web designer who is a Flash god and wrote a thesis on UI design or do you 
look for someone who you can hand five card board boxes and a CD and then come 
back a few hours later and see a working server with the code running. The 
difference is that the first one is an artist and the second one is a techie. 
I guess you are looking for an artistical techie.
Sure, you can code major pages by hand from scratch with just a text editor. 
But if that is the way it is supposed to be I wonder why there are so many 
breaking their necks making IDEs and other development tools. I'm not saying 
that it is pointless in knowing how to edit a file via CLI, but for anything 
that is more involved why would anyone not use a tool?

>> That is something I'd trust a piece of software to do it correctly.
> 
> lol :-D  +1funny!

You may laugh, but after a while doing everything by hand and from scratch is 
getting old.


> 
>> That depends, in PHP you'd get a syntax error right in the first line 
>> and both a and b remain undefined. 
> 
> Do you think you could make sense of it and answer it correctly 
> nevertheless, though? It's not meant to be PHP specific...

A gets the value of B and B keeps its value (I think that was 20, wasn't it). 
There is quite some research done with this test debating various thinking 
models that each have some merit and logic, OK, except for those who claim the 
results is that B turns into a string and A is the square root of seven.

>> I also wonder if you are looking for a web master who runs and 
>> configures your servers or if you are looking for a web developer who 
>> creates content and writes scripts or if you are looking for both.
> 
> Great question!
> 
> This is the heart of the question.
> 
> Ideally a webmaster will do both (code and admin).  This is what makes 
> the job really interesting, in my opinion. This is what attracted me to 
> being a webmaster to begin with.
> But lately I've been noticing that the profession "webmaster" is 
> becoming... old-fashioned?

No, not really, but since there is so much stuff to do and to know in regards 
to web it is less likely and maybe not even desired for one person to know it 
all well enough. Such a person is ideal for support. The best supporter is 
like a duck, can swim, but not like a dolphin, can run, but not like leopard, 
and can fly, but not as well as an eagle. For development you don't want a 
duck, you want a dolphin, a leopard, and an eagle. So the "knows it all" is a 
rare breed and chances are you get the duck, who can do a little bit of 
everything, but nothing well.

> I attended the "future of web design" conference in NY last year, and a 
> constant theme across many speakers was "the need for specialization".
> 
> It was stated that webmasters are a dying breed, and that now one should 
> hire a web designer, a web developer, and a train a monkey for sysadmin. 
> (jk)

Yes, because your design goddess doesn't give a damn where the files need to 
go on the server and how to make sure the backups are fine and that the logs 
get evaluated. And honestly, I think that is OK, after all you hired the sys 
admin monkey for those tasks.

> I think webmasters need to stand up and be proud of their triple threat 
> status!
> 
> So, yeah, where have all the webmasters gone?

Well, back then when there wasn't all this flashy stuff and people stared at 
you in disbelief when your page looked like Craigslist and you knew how to 
deal with a server you were the (web) master. Now you have to be certified for 
networking, sys admininstration, be a security expert, know all the software 
development stuff, and be awesome at graphics and UI design. There is no way 
to master all this in perfection, have all the certs, 10 years experience, and 
be an under 20 year old who can work 80 hour weeks straight for peanuts and 
Mountain Dew.
So you need to figure out who you need and in which area you can accept 
weaknesses. It comes down to which skills you need from the new web master now 
and which ones can wait until they are acquired or deemed not needed.

David


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 17:38:14 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:38:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803C365.1050702@altzman.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<48039B9F.4090508@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804141237k76c3c70ajf1ad1c2856c46134@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803C365.1050702@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804141438i4a5a374fld4a9fcbd67bed578@mail.gmail.com>

>  p.s. top-posting is nasty.

My bad, I was addressing your entire response, should have included
more inlines.

- jake

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at altzman.com> wrote:
> on 2008-04-14 15:37 Jake McGraw said the following:
>
>
> > I wasn't out to dissuade anyone from utilizing some kind of pseudo
> > code testing, I'm just trying to offer an alternative point of view,
> > the receiving end of interviews (interviewee if you will).
> >
>
>  Certainly your viewpoint is valid, and valued.
>
>
>
> > In my, admittedly limited experience, I've found company interviews
> > that start, contain, or end with, "Hi! Here's a computer / piece of
> > paper, you'll have 45 minutes to complete this exercise consisting
> > almost entirely of php.net/[insert function name here]", represents a
> > company on the path to fail, one which I ended up in because I didn't
> > know any better, two I rejected offers from.
> >
>
>  Yes, well, that's NOT what we're talking about. But those companies do
> exist, and it behooves you to understand what they're thinking. And also
> consider the whole fizzbuzz
> (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html) problem.
>
>
>
> > Here's my point of view: if you (as a recruiter) can come up with
> > nothing better than a rehash of references and a test of memorization
> > as the gateway for a new hire, then what kind of quality can I expect
> > in the rest of the company? Just as everyone here is putting the
> >
>
>  Well, gee, it could be that the HR guy is somewhat divorced from the actual
> development team; or that he's the first gateway in; or that he's a
> recruiter from a firm and not the actual principal at all, and uses the
> results for many of his clients!
>
>
>
> > emphasis on finding the right candidate, weeding out the weak ones,
> > I'd like to offer the idea that maybe each candidate is trying to find
> > the right company, and that puts you (the interviewer) on the spot.
> >
>
>  That's all well and good from both sides: if you wouldn't like it here,
> it's far more likely you'll spend your time looking for your next position.
> I always open the floor to questions from the interviewee; what he/she
> *asks* us is often about as enlightening as how he/she answers us.
>
>
>
> > I'm not trying to leave you with the impression that Millennials are
> > ingrates (compared to what, Gen-Xers?), but that there are many
> > options available to us, applying for a job is trivial thanks to the
> > internet/head hunters, and supply (of us) is limited. I think that you
> >
>
>  In fact, the triviality of application is a sword that cuts both ways:
> because of it, people have had to develop these semi-automated methods of
> separating wheat from chaff because so many people use scattershot methods
> of applying for positions, rather than apply for something appropriate.
>
>
>
> > would be doing your company a disservice if you didn't consider this
> > before giving a candidate a test that makes them reconsider their
> > choice to apply (or even showup) by insulting their intelligence.
> >
>
>  I, personally, have told recruiters and/or hiring managers: "I don't take
> written tests" when I applied for positions. At that time, at my stage in
> life, if I wasn't talking to a principal, or my CV didn't stand on its own,
> I could pass on the job. That was my decision, and I'm sure that I missed
> out on a few good opportunities. Maybe I was just being a prima donna.
> However, I paid my dues a few times, and I've got the references to back
> myself up, so I can take that chance.
>
>  **HOWEVER**, were I applying for some entry-level position, I'd expect to
> be tested on the basics, perhaps *even with a rudimentary written test*, and
> that any company that DIDN'T was showing lack of due diligence (read:
> malfeasance). The industry is rife with these stories: dailywtf posts them
> almost daily ("Tales from the Interview"), _Peopleware_ devotes a whole
> chapter to it ("Audition").
>
>  The written test that Andr? originally posted was flawed in implementation,
> but totally sound in theory. It merely needed refining (and maybe not even
> that much). Remember: it is meant as a very very gross filter, just to
> totally weed out the completely incompetent who make it past your HR
> department or cursory scan at a CV.
>
>  I said it before and I'll reiterate it: yes, doing this kind of pre-testing
> might make me miss out on hiring the next RMS or Joel Spolsky, but I have to
> weigh that against other very compelling needs (like if I spend two days
> interviewing only 5 candidates, I have lots two days of other work that I
> need to do for clients, etc.).
>
>
>
>
>
> > - jake
> >
>
>  //jbaltz
>  --
>  jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
>  thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From matt at atopia.net  Mon Apr 14 17:43:45 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:43:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150804141402l2a8e2ea3va37e8a68359d5804@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>
	<e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
	<29da5d150804141402l2a8e2ea3va37e8a68359d5804@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080414174337.M57270@mercury.atopia.net>

I prefer nano to be honest.





....

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Brian O'Connor wrote:

> i prefer gedit :)
>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> http://xkcd.com/378/
>>
>> I use Eclipse + PDT, guess I'm a newb.
>>
>> - jake
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com> wrote:
>>> I use emacs
>>>
>>>  Matt Juszczak wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.
>>  But I
>>> don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one defend
>>> themselves there?
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Edward Potter,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> And my only coder question:
>>>>>> How good are you with vi at the command line?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more
>> webmasters
>>> of this ilk around though ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> And my only designer question:
>>>>>> Show me cool stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
>>>>> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Andr?
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>
>>>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Brian O'Connor
>
>
> !DSPAM:4803cfe5572281762242793!
>

From susan_shemin at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 14 17:46:05 2008
From: susan_shemin at yahoo.com (Susan Shemin)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:46:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <58778.82252.qm@web50210.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

sorry, of course -- I'm at work and wrote it in a hurry -- anyway, you pass  :)



----- Original Message ----
From: Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org>
To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 1:08:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test

Susan Shemin wrote:
> For CSS, give div style code with an index attribute and ask what the 
> index is for.

You mean like z-index?
-Andr?
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Apr 14 18:20:42 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:20:42 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208211642.25258@coral.he.net>

On the topic of tests and testing and unreasonable requests from would-
be employers or clients:

Recently there was a lady who posted not only to Craig's List Gigs 
section but also to this list, "desperate" for a developer to start 
ASAP.  I sent over my resume and she responded saying "send a code 
sample"...and I emailed her back saying, I have 10+ years of 
experience, I don't feel I am in a position to have to prove to you 
that I can write code.  

I guess a lot of other people responded to her the same way, as she was 
searching a while.  What was she going to do with the code, anyway?  
Chances are she was just a "civilian" who could no more read code [ever 
notice how when you show it to them they go "OH WOW MAN look at that" 
and then their eyes glaze over?] than read Russian.  And if she can 
read it, she should have to pay for it anyway.

I'm not really sure why they ask for code, seems stupid to me!



-- Kristina

> 
> Yes, but this would be okay:
> 
> body {
>   color: black;
>   background-color: white
> }
> 
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 4:24 PM, Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn at rbnsn.com> 
wrote:
> 
> > Quoting Allen Shaw <ashaw at polymerdb.org>:
> >
> >  Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> > >
> > > > 4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
> > > >     a) body {color: black}
> > > >     b) body:color=black
> > > >     c) {body:color=black}
> > > >     d) {body color:black}
> > > >
> > > >  Doesn't correct CSS syntax require a semicolon?
> > > body {color: black;}
> > >
> >
> > CSS only requires the semi-colon when there is more than one 
statement in
> > the block.
> >
> > This is ok:
> > body {
> >   color: black
> > }
> >
> > This is not ok:
> > body {
> >   color: black
> >   background-color: white;
> > }
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Brian O'Connor
> 
> 




From tedd at sperling.com  Mon Apr 14 18:32:56 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:32:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <p06240803c429883c1595@[192.168.1.101]>

At 10:07 AM -0400 4/14/08, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>So, we're hiring a new webmaster here at work 
>and I was tasked with producing a simple 
>technical test. The person is supposed to have 
>two years experience as a web dev. There's three 
>parts: html, css, and webmaster questions. What 
>do you think?
>(bonus: I'll tell you what my manager thought)

I hate test like that and probably wouldn't take 
it. It doesn't give you any indication of the 
persons abilities and is more likely to show your 
own shortcomings.

I would rather ask a simple question like "Impress me" and listen.

If has online work, then have him show it.

If he has a list of past clients, then supply the urls.

But then again, you have to know enough to know 
how to judge what's correct and current.

Instead, why not instead hire one of us to 
interview your candidates? For those of us who 
know, it's pretty easy to spot the ones who know 
what they are doing.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 19:09:51 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:09:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804141609n324fc30cm60735a6d94865f1d@mail.gmail.com>

>  8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
>  kilobytes)? How are the factors related?

My answer:

The number of kilobytes is irrelevant to the user.  Page load time is
what matters.
To improve the page load time, the following items are a good idea:
1) Minimize the number of TCP connections -- make sure keep alive is turned on
2) Minimize Number of HTTP requests required -- use css sprites,
consolidate scripts/css.
3) Make sure the page progressively renders. -- if you get a white
flash in IE, you are doing something wrong
4) Remove unnecessary blocking javascript -- e.g. analytics code
should be defered, ads should be placed at the end of the page and
positioned with css if possible.
5) Use expires http headers.
6) Gzip all js/css/html.
7) Use subdomains to get around the 2 connection limit.
8) Replace complicated float layouts with tables  -- standards freaks
hate this, but Google uses tables all the time because they care more
about page render time than standards conformance.
9) Optimize all images for the web.  -- use the "save for web" feature
in photoshop.  It strips out all the unnecessary metadata and
optimizes the palette.

Page size is rarely the issue.

-John C.


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 19:14:43 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:14:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080414113538.02b132d0@e-government.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080414113538.02b132d0@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804141614r52bd4549h472d9ebe963cc3cb@mail.gmail.com>

>  Given a single elimination tennis tournament (you loose a match and you're
> out)
>  with N players. How many matches are required to determine a winner? Here
> is
>  an example, four players A, B, C, and D. In the first round, A play B and C
> plays
>  D. A and D win. So far 2 matches and 2 players go to next round.

rounds = ceil(ln(N)/ln(2));
games = N-1;


-John C.


From tedd at sperling.com  Mon Apr 14 19:31:37 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:31:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com> <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <p06240806c4298d474415@[192.168.1.101]>

At 2:28 PM -0400 4/14/08, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>First candidate finished his exam:
>
>Answer to 7) a= 0.5, b=1
>
>I'm not kidding...
>
>ps. I'm not hating.  I'm sharing this with the 
>community because I think it's valuable info.

Andr?:

I'm not saying that he shouldn't answered the 
question as you intended, but let's stop and 
examine this incident -- your question was:

7) a and b are variables.

    a = 10
    b = 20
    a = b

    The new values of a and b are, respectively:

And his answer was:

    a= 0.5, b=1

Now, if you were looking at these relationships 
as ratios, such as a:10, b:20, then what would be 
the ratio of a:b ? His answer 0.5:1 would have 
been correct.

I suspect that you confused the issue by using 
the word "respectively". After all, that word 
really didn't add anything to the question except 
to add a bit of doubt as to what the question 
actually meant. Using the word "respectively 
means with respect to each other and thus one 
could interpret that as a ratio question. As 
such, his answer would have been correct.

If you had been testing for grammar, then he 
could have corrected that for you for bonus 
points.

I've seen a lot of trick questions in my day and 
that word would have raised a red flag for me. Of 
course, I would have still answered the question 
the way you wanted -- but I would have never let 
on that your question showed more about you than 
me.

If it had turned out to be a trick question, then 
I could have defended my answer well enough. But, 
I have found myself in positions before where the 
people who wrote the test knew absolutely nothing 
about the subject and in those cases no one wins 
except the dumbest -- try taking a civil service 
exam sometime and you'll understand.

That's the problem with writing test -- not only 
do you have to know what you are asking; but how 
specific and clear the question is; what should 
the answer be (acceptable range); and most 
importantly why you are asking it. What value 
does answering your question your way bring to 
the table? After all, you might be wrong.

I applied for a position with a company and after 
reviewing my resume they required me to take a 
math fraction test. I asked them if they had 
noticed my education (MSc) on my resume which 
required math skills far exceeding fractions 
(i.e., vector calculus, matrix theory, digital 
processing).  They replied "Yes, but we still 
want you to take the test." I declined and we 
parted company. So, what purpose did that test 
serve?

In short, test generally suck as a measure of 
anything more than common ignorance.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ramons at gmx.net  Mon Apr 14 20:10:08 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:10:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <p06240806c4298d474415@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com>
	<4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
	<p06240806c4298d474415@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <4803F260.3070105@gmx.net>

tedd wrote:
> I'm not saying that he shouldn't answered the question as you intended, 
> but let's stop and examine this incident -- your question was:
> 
> 7) a and b are variables.
> 
>    a = 10
>    b = 20
>    a = b
> 
>    The new values of a and b are, respectively:
> 
> And his answer was:
> 
>    a= 0.5, b=1
> 

In case you haven't already read this, here is the research paper about this 
problem and the various outcomes:

http://www.cs.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 21:16:04 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (Andre Pitanga)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:16:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804141245w534412bax3ac26d7cb24d75bc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>	<48039741.2030603@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804141245w534412bax3ac26d7cb24d75bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480401D4.5020801@pitanga.org>

Oh, I posed this as a rhetorical question...


Jake McGraw wrote:
> For all the debate (preaching) that has taken place, I honestly
> couldn't answer your question without a clearer job description, like
> what exactly will be the responsibilities of this new hire?
>>
>>  So, do you suggest we just scrap the test instead?
>>
>>  -Andr?


From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 21:21:09 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (Andre Pitanga)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:21:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <a304e2d60804141331k6a45939enfa33c445a4699688@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<a304e2d60804141331k6a45939enfa33c445a4699688@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48040305.1090705@pitanga.org>

N?stor,
The test is not pass/fail. But if it was you'd have definitely passed :-)
-Andr?


> This seem to be a test more for a front end person than a back end 
> programmer.
> A lot of this stuff I have done but I do not remember it.  I think I 
> would fail this test
> without a book around.
>
> I went to an interview once for a Perl programmer and they gave me a 
> test like
> this and I said I will not pass the test without my perl book.  The 
> guy let me use his
> perl book and I pass the test.  I do not have the commands memorized 
> but I do
> know what I need to do to get things done.  I was offered the job and 
> I turned it down
> because I took a another job doing more C programming
>
> I probably failed your test but I can not afford to take a pay cut 
> (ha, ha, ha..)
>
> I have been doing this for several years since I stopped programming in C
> and my answers are embedded.
>
> N?stor :-)
>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Andr? Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org 
> <mailto:andre at pitanga.org>> wrote:
>
>     So, we're hiring a new webmaster here at work and I was tasked
>     with producing a simple technical test. The person is supposed to
>     have two years experience as a web dev. There's three parts: html,
>     css, and webmaster questions. What do you think?
>     (bonus: I'll tell you what my manager thought)
>
>     HTML
>
>     1) Which HTML attribute is used to define inline styles?
>          a) font
>          b) styles
>          c) css
>          d) text
>          e) style
>
> I think is e
>
>
>
>     2) What is the correct HTML for referring to an external style sheet?
>          a) <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>          b) <style src="mainstyle.css">
>          c) <stylesheet>mainstyle.css</stylesheet>
>          d) <link url="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mainstyle.css">
>
> I will guess a
>
>
>
>     3) Which HTML tag is used to define an internal style sheet?
>          a) <script>
>          b) <css>
>          c) <stylesheet>
>          d) <style>
>
> d
>
>
>
>     CSS
>
>     4) Which is the correct CSS syntax?
>          a) body {color: black}
>          b) body:color=black
>          c) {body:color=black}
>          d) {body color:black}
>
> Without looking at the book I have not idea
>
>
>
>     5) How does one set a border like this:
>
>       The top border = 10 pixels, The bottom border = 5 pixels, The left
>     border = 20 pixels, The right border = 1pixel.
>
>          a) border-width:10px 20px 5px 1px
>          b) border-width:10px 1px 5px 20px
>          c) border-width:10px 5px 20px 1px
>          d) border-width:5px 20px 10px 1px
>
> I remember that this is tricky because is like top bottom left right
>
>
>
>     6) What are the three methods for using style sheets with a web page
>          a) Dreamweaver, GoLive or FrontPage
>          b) In-Line, External or Embedded
>          c) Handcoded, Database-driven or WYSIWYG
>
> c
>
>
>
>     PROGRAMMING
>
>     7) a and b are variables.
>
>       a = 10
>       b = 20
>       a = b
>
>       The new values of a and b are, respectively:
>
> a = b= 20
>
>
>
>     WEBMASTER
>
>     8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
>     kilobytes)? How are the factors related?
>
> The market that you are dealing with but the default should 800x600
>
>
>
>     9) Why use Flash in web development? Why not?
>
> use flash to be fancy.  Why not?, becuase I have never used it
>
>
>
>     10) Why is "separation of style and content" recommended in web
>     desvelopment?
>
> Becaue is easier for human readability and to maintain
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

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From andre at pitanga.org  Mon Apr 14 21:43:35 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (Andre Pitanga)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:43:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804141609n324fc30cm60735a6d94865f1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<8f0676b40804141609n324fc30cm60735a6d94865f1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48040847.6080109@pitanga.org>

This is so in depth. I hadn't seriously thought about css sprites yet.
I'm saving this for future reference.


John Campbell wrote:
>>  8) What factors determine your recommended maximum home page size (in
>>  kilobytes)? How are the factors related?
>>     
>
> My answer:
>
> The number of kilobytes is irrelevant to the user.  Page load time is
> what matters.
> To improve the page load time, the following items are a good idea:
> 1) Minimize the number of TCP connections -- make sure keep alive is turned on
> 2) Minimize Number of HTTP requests required -- use css sprites,
> consolidate scripts/css.
> 3) Make sure the page progressively renders. -- if you get a white
> flash in IE, you are doing something wrong
> 4) Remove unnecessary blocking javascript -- e.g. analytics code
> should be defered, ads should be placed at the end of the page and
> positioned with css if possible.
> 5) Use expires http headers.
> 6) Gzip all js/css/html.
> 7) Use subdomains to get around the 2 connection limit.
> 8) Replace complicated float layouts with tables  -- standards freaks
> hate this, but Google uses tables all the time because they care more
> about page render time than standards conformance.
> 9) Optimize all images for the web.  -- use the "save for web" feature
> in photoshop.  It strips out all the unnecessary metadata and
> optimizes the palette.
>
> Page size is rarely the issue.
>
> -John C.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   



From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 14 22:43:46 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:43:46 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48040847.6080109@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<8f0676b40804141609n324fc30cm60735a6d94865f1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<48040847.6080109@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804141943w1fe3adbbl202bb737047d562c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Andre Pitanga <andre at pitanga.org> wrote:
> This is so in depth. I hadn't seriously thought about css sprites yet.
>  I'm saving this for future reference.

CSS sprites are a pain in the ass to manage.  I'd recommend all of the
other options first.  If you do decide to use them, there are two
general strategies:

1) Yahoo - icon strategy:
<a href="/blah/" class="sprite abc" />
css:
a.sprite {
margin-left: 30px;
background:transparent url('sprite.png') no-repeat scroll top left;
}
a.abc {
background-position: -Ypx -Xpx
}

In this case there needs to be a huge amount of white space around each sprite.

2) Google - image replacement method:
<img src="blank.gif"  style="background:transparent url('sprite.png')
no-repeat scroll -Ypx -Xpx; width:25px; height:25px" />

With the Google method, the sprites images don't need any padding
around each image.

Regards,
John C.


From suzerain at suzerain.com  Tue Apr 15 01:41:26 2008
From: suzerain at suzerain.com (Marc Antony Vose)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:41:26 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] safari file uploads?
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804141943w1fe3adbbl202bb737047d562c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<8f0676b40804141609n324fc30cm60735a6d94865f1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<48040847.6080109@pitanga.org>
	<8f0676b40804141943w1fe3adbbl202bb737047d562c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B1F26058-943A-4E46-A595-40F338B156A8@suzerain.com>

Hi there:

I'm experiencing problems with Safari file uploads into my CMS (self- 
built).  This is a system that's been in use/development for years and  
years, without problem.  It doesn't do anything too exotic (AJAX,  
etc.)...just a simple multipart/form-data form with file upload fields.

For some reason, in Safari 3+ on OS X, file uploads are basically  
failing.  It'll just hang.  It doesn't happen in any other browser.   
Anyone experience any subtle changes in Safari's file upload behavior  
that could be causing this?

Cheers,

Marc Vose
Suzerain Studios



From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 15 08:15:36 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:15:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <480401D4.5020801@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com><48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>	<48039741.2030603@pitanga.org><e065b8610804141245w534412bax3ac26d7cb24d75bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<480401D4.5020801@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <000a01c89ef2$69f1aee0$3dd50ca0$@com>

Some odds and ends on this test topic, featuring 2 best test scenarios I
can recall:

1) I took a test one time at some big hi-floor Tribeca shop and the
candidate was plunked down at a live workstation in the middle of the
office with staff all around you and you were expected to instantly
learn the folder structure and network. You were expected to use the
office IDE. And you were given basically a PHP assignment of the type
that comes in and you had up to 1.5 hours to do it and save. 

2) At another test, the co. initiated every recruitment with a live
phone interview in which the company chief tech officer grills you live
for 10 - 20 min. on web server maint and PHP coding issues related to
their environment. 

I thought both of these techniques very effective.

And more historically when I managed a 24-hr desktop operation, we had a
3-hour hands on test in which you were put at a workstation, thrown a
big aggressively marked up document and all the assets you would need
for this assignment and you were expected to just do it live using all
the graphics applications and print it out correctly. This hardcore
testing method weeded out the talkers and turned up winners and revealed
in very fine degrees their levels of expertise. 

So I would actually propone a short but rigorous test (maybe with 2 or 3
levels of difficulty) based on exactly how your office works.

Solo mi dos centavos hombres. 
?
Pedro
Technology Dir.
Sun-code Interactive
Sun-code.com 
646.316.3678 
ps at sun-code.com










-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Andre Pitanga
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 9:16 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test

Oh, I posed this as a rhetorical question...


Jake McGraw wrote:
> For all the debate (preaching) that has taken place, I honestly
> couldn't answer your question without a clearer job description, like
> what exactly will be the responsibilities of this new hire?
>>
>>  So, do you suggest we just scrap the test instead?
>>
>>  -Andr?
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Tue Apr 15 08:53:23 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:53:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208211642.25258@coral.he.net>
References: <1208211642.25258@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <20080415125323.GA3002@panix.com>

Hi Kristina:

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 03:20:42PM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> 
> she responded saying "send a code 
> sample"...and I emailed her back saying, I have 10+ years of 
> experience, I don't feel I am in a position to have to prove to you 
> that I can write code.  

Asking for code samples is completely reasonable.  It shows how you think 
and how you code.  This is helpful for two reasons.  First, it's a way to 
back up the statement that one has been coding for 10 years.  Second, 
just because someone has been doing something for 10 years doesn't mean 
they do a good job.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Apr 15 09:20:12 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:20:12 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <000a01c89ef2$69f1aee0$3dd50ca0$@com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com><48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140724w4e442d33j38a77752836a6734@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803733B.2090309@altzman.com>
	<e065b8610804140858v345afea6t1e382fe575eceed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<48039741.2030603@pitanga.org><e065b8610804141245w534412bax3ac26d7cb24d75b
	c@mail.gmail.com>	<480401D4.5020801@pitanga.org>
	<000a01c89ef2$69f1aee0$3dd50ca0$@com>
Message-ID: <p06240805c42a59957b1c@[192.168.1.101]>

At 8:15 AM -0400 4/15/08, Peter Sawczynec wrote:
>And more historically when I managed a 24-hr desktop operation, we had a
>3-hour hands on test in which you were put at a workstation, thrown a
>big aggressively marked up document and all the assets you would need
>for this assignment and you were expected to just do it live using all
>the graphics applications and print it out correctly. This hardcore
>testing method weeded out the talkers and turned up winners and revealed
>in very fine degrees their levels of expertise.

Now that's more like a test of abilities that I would consider. 
However, with one caveat -- allow me to use the tools I work with, 
namely my workstation.

Give me the test on-line and allow me to work on it without the "over 
the shoulder" inspections and at the end of the time limit, just have 
me present my results with my explanation. Keep in mind, that while 
your office may "work that way" -- that "way" may not be the best.

Often in the corporate world the brightest ideas have to pass through 
the dimmest minds. Give me a small group of dedicated and qualified 
people and I'll do just fine. But put me with the corporate "this is 
the way it's done" types, and it's not a test I'll consider taking.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Apr 15 09:25:24 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:25:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <4803F260.3070105@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com>	<4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
	<p06240806c4298d474415@[192.168.1.101]> <4803F260.3070105@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <p06240802c42a4d93aaa4@[192.168.1.101]>

At 8:10 PM -0400 4/14/08, David Krings wrote:
>tedd wrote:
>>I'm not saying that he shouldn't answered the question as you 
>>intended, but let's stop and examine this incident -- your question 
>>was:
>>
>>7) a and b are variables.
>>
>>    a = 10
>>    b = 20
>>    a = b
>>
>>    The new values of a and b are, respectively:
>>
>>And his answer was:
>>
>>    a= 0.5, b=1
>>
>
>In case you haven't already read this, here is the research paper 
>about this problem and the various outcomes:
>
>http://www.cs.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf

No, I had not read that -- but the article drives home the point I 
was making in that it's very difficult to test a person's ability to 
program.

Programming is more akin to the basic method of a person's ability to 
resolve and interpret the world around them. I have my own theories, 
but I don't think they would be acceptable in academic circles.

But think of this -- we all know that color-blind people see things 
differently and that's considered a disability. However, in WWII we 
successfully used color-blind personnel to detect camouflaged enemy 
positions. Now imagine a color-blind person trying to teach normal 
visioned people how to do that. That's the type of problem you run 
into teaching programming. But on the same point, a color-blind 
person would have little problem explaining that to another 
color-blinded person (of course of the same color-blindness). That's 
the main reason for the two-humped test results the article mentions. 
You either "get-it" or you don't.

Some of the top programmers I ever met, had no formal education. Explain that.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Apr 15 09:25:58 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:25:58 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208265958.30368@coral.he.net>

Hi Dan --

I feel that in some cases, it may be appropriate to ask for code 
samples.  In the case where it is a full time role and company policy 
is that people are asked to submit code samples as part of the hiring 
package, then OK.

But someone posting some BS few thousand buck gig asking for a 
freelancer?  

The way I look at things, if you go to hire a lawyer or a doctor, you 
might ask around and see if anyone has gotten good service from them.  
You might ask them to recommend some satisfied former clients for you 
to speak with before hiring them.  Might even ask them how many spleens 
they have removed before in their career.  Great.  But are you going to 
sit there and say "send me one of your other client's documents so I 
can see if you know how to file a case" or "let me watch you remove 
someone's spleen so that I  know you are a real doctor"...umm.

And by the same token I'm a professional person providing services, my 
services just happen to be debugging code, and I've been called in 
enough times to fix code that others wrote that didn't work, and 
successfully done so, to know that I am good at what I do.  (My 
sometimes boneheaded code mashups in posts here notwithstanding! :))
I'm not saying I'm the best in the world, but I've been around the 
block a few times and paid my dues.

And when you are choosing clients, sometimes you have to look for signs 
that they might be difficult to work with.  If I have to start trying 
to prove to a client at the outset that I'm not a complete and utter 
idiot, then that could be a red flag....?  A huge part of a successful 
project is good will and open communication between client and 
programmer.

In my opinion, reducing the job role of a programmer/systems 
analyst/application developer/etc to a "task oriented" role where you 
go in and take tests and get asked basic stupid questions about HTML 
elements and if statements (and maybe whether you can remember to put 
mocha in the latte) denigrates the nature of the work we do and the 
character and intellect it takes to be successful in this field.  And 
that is something that I have found is far too common an occurrence.


-- Kristina

> Hi Kristina:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 03:20:42PM -0700, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > 
> > she responded saying "send a code 
> > sample"...and I emailed her back saying, I have 10+ years of 
> > experience, I don't feel I am in a position to have to prove to you 
> > that I can write code.  
> 
> Asking for code samples is completely reasonable.  It shows how you 
think 
> and how you code.  This is helpful for two reasons.  First, it's a 
way to 
> back up the statement that one has been coding for 10 years.  Second, 
> just because someone has been doing something for 10 years doesn't 
mean 
> they do a good job.
> 
> --Dan
> 
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 09:41:22 2008
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David A. Roth)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:41:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <480416a6.0708360a.674e.fffffc57SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
References: <480416a6.0708360a.674e.fffffc57SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <A427383C-D87C-4778-9590-CF0DE2122615@gmail.com>

This is a very interesting discussion. I believe in being able to  
obtain the best person for the job, but  I'm not sure that creating a  
standardize programming test is the best way. Or to devise some trick  
questions. It reminds me of academic hazing constructed to make the  
instructor look smart.

If you were going to hire a personal cook, you would go by  
recommendations and actually sample what they can prepare based on  
the kind of meals you desire. A cook passing a test about the use of  
appliances and what's the best way to melt butter doesn't mean they  
are going to be able to make the Weight Watchers? meat-loaf the way  
you like it. You would have the candidate cook prepare some meals for  
you and ask for their feed back on real questions like, "We eat many  
chicken dishes, what do you recommend?". This would also give you a  
chance to see if this person is not only able to prepare a meal to  
your liking but if they are a good resource for you as well. Before I  
push this any further, I don't have a cook, don't know how to cook,  
but I know what I would want if I was going to hire one cause it  
would be based on what they actually have to do on the job. A  
certified cook doesn't mean much if they can't make White Chocolate  
Mousse on-demand. :-)

Bringing this back to programming, webmastering, or service  
tech'ing. :-) You want to hire a webmaster. Make a list of the kinds  
of things you wish to have a webmaster do on the job most of their  
time. If the job is to be able to re-partition disks or change  
content on a corporate web site using a popular open source CMS  
(Joomla), then I feel those are the things that should be asked of a  
candidate to demonstrate in front of a work station. If most of their  
job will be installing new software and configuring a system then set- 
up some systems with packages for them to do this. This is assuming  
if you can't entirely trust the recommendations for this person or if  
you simply want to see if they can do what you need them to do  
specifically. If the candidate doesn't know how to do something and  
looks on the web to figure it out, and is still able to get the job  
done in a reasonable amount of time than I consider this a plus,  
because someone who is resourceful and works this way on the job is  
better than someone who only knows what they have been shown to do.  
Syntax examples of most things are only a few clicks away.

At the very least, a candidate should walk away from the interview  
feeling that they were actually being evaluated for what they would  
have  to do on the job. If they had difficulty it would be obvious to  
them on what areas they need to improve on and realize why they  
weren't offered a job. As for the hiring manager, you want to feel  
confident that the person you hire can do the real job and if they  
have successfully demonstrated performing small work tasks you will  
know for sure.

David Roth
davidalanroth at gmail.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Apr 15 09:47:14 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:47:14 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net>

This goes back to my point about the status of the profession --  if 
we're being compared to cooks and service technicians, you know times 
are going to be rough for us.  I'd rather be compared to a lawyer...and 
make closer to what they make...what we do is no less complex.





> This is a very interesting discussion. I believe in being able to  
> obtain the best person for the job, but  I'm not sure that creating 
a  
> standardize programming test is the best way. Or to devise some 
trick  
> questions. It reminds me of academic hazing constructed to make the  
> instructor look smart.
> 
> If you were going to hire a personal cook, you would go by  
> recommendations and actually sample what they can prepare based on  
> the kind of meals you desire. A cook passing a test about the use of  
> appliances and what's the best way to melt butter doesn't mean they  
> are going to be able to make the Weight Watchers? meat-loaf the way  
> you like it. You would have the candidate cook prepare some meals 
for  
> you and ask for their feed back on real questions like, "We eat many  
> chicken dishes, what do you recommend?". This would also give you a  
> chance to see if this person is not only able to prepare a meal to  
> your liking but if they are a good resource for you as well. Before 
I  
> push this any further, I don't have a cook, don't know how to cook,  
> but I know what I would want if I was going to hire one cause it  
> would be based on what they actually have to do on the job. A  
> certified cook doesn't mean much if they can't make White Chocolate  
> Mousse on-demand. :-)
> 
> Bringing this back to programming, webmastering, or service  
> tech'ing. :-) You want to hire a webmaster. Make a list of the kinds  
> of things you wish to have a webmaster do on the job most of their  
> time. If the job is to be able to re-partition disks or change  
> content on a corporate web site using a popular open source CMS  
> (Joomla), then I feel those are the things that should be asked of a  
> candidate to demonstrate in front of a work station. If most of 
their  
> job will be installing new software and configuring a system then set-
 
> up some systems with packages for them to do this. This is assuming  
> if you can't entirely trust the recommendations for this person or 
if  
> you simply want to see if they can do what you need them to do  
> specifically. If the candidate doesn't know how to do something and  
> looks on the web to figure it out, and is still able to get the job  
> done in a reasonable amount of time than I consider this a plus,  
> because someone who is resourceful and works this way on the job is  
> better than someone who only knows what they have been shown to do.  
> Syntax examples of most things are only a few clicks away.
> 
> At the very least, a candidate should walk away from the interview  
> feeling that they were actually being evaluated for what they would  
> have  to do on the job. If they had difficulty it would be obvious 
to  
> them on what areas they need to improve on and realize why they  
> weren't offered a job. As for the hiring manager, you want to feel  
> confident that the person you hire can do the real job and if they  
> have successfully demonstrated performing small work tasks you will  
> know for sure.
> 
> David Roth
> davidalanroth at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From andre at pitanga.org  Tue Apr 15 09:55:22 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:55:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4804B3CA.1060404@pitanga.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20080415/00f3b722/attachment.html>

From ramons at gmx.net  Tue Apr 15 09:57:33 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:57:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <p06240802c42a4d93aaa4@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com>	<4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>	<p06240806c4298d474415@[192.168.1.101]>
	<4803F260.3070105@gmx.net> <p06240802c42a4d93aaa4@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <4804B44D.2030409@gmx.net>

tedd wrote:
> No, I had not read that -- but the article drives home the point I was 
> making in that it's very difficult to test a person's ability to program.

And it is definitely language specific. Tackling a problem in PHP may be way 
easier than using Assembler.

> Programming is more akin to the basic method of a person's ability to 
> resolve and interpret the world around them. I have my own theories, but 
> I don't think they would be acceptable in academic circles.
> 
> But think of this -- we all know that color-blind people see things 
> differently and that's considered a disability. However, in WWII we 
> successfully used color-blind personnel to detect camouflaged enemy 
> positions. Now imagine a color-blind person trying to teach normal 
> visioned people how to do that. That's the type of problem you run into 
> teaching programming. But on the same point, a color-blind person would 
> have little problem explaining that to another color-blinded person (of 
> course of the same color-blindness). That's the main reason for the 
> two-humped test results the article mentions. You either "get-it" or you 
> don't.

That is probably true for the pure logic, but I tried pretty much any 
programming environment I could get my hands on and I failed in all but two. 
One was the now defunct VB6 and the other one is PHP. I tried Java and C/C++ 
and they are just way too complicated. You have to do so much stuff upfront to 
get to the point where can even bother to think about how to solve a problem. 
That is what I like to so much about PHP, there is often already a good set of 
pieces to the puzzle available and since those are big pieces it is also easy 
to put them together. And in the end the result is as pretty as using 
something else. And still I think even PHP makes programming often way more 
difficult than it has to be, best example is any date or time related 
function. One third uses the illogical US notation, one third uses the less 
illogical european notation, and the last third uses something entirely 
different. Absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary.


> Some of the top programmers I ever met, had no formal education. Explain 
> that.

The top programmers understand the business and therefore know the 
expectations. My guess is that those things that make them great programmers 
have nothing to do with programming and the fact that they didn't have formal 
education didn't cloud their minds. Not to prejudice an entire group, but back 
at IR when we started working with the developers from India, they impressed 
with all their knowledge about algorithms and SQL skills and what have not. 
All the stuff they learned in the universities. The problem was that they had 
no clue what our business was about and what they needed to do in order to 
satisfy the expectations. They worked hard and put a lot of effort into their 
work, but were too focused on numbers. Rather than giving us 50 lines of code 
that did work well thay cranked out 10,000 lines of code that didn't even 
compile, but in their view they did an awesome job, because they used all the 
examples from their text books. Even worse, you could ask them to do the 
dumbest thing and they just said yes and did it. We also worked with other 
foreign developers and they tended to be way more critical of what was asked 
for. If they thought there is a better way they said so and often were right. 
We worked with one dutch guy who joined the company as an intern. The 
internship was required before starting the studies at the university. He 
never went back to school and just learned what he needed on the job. He is a 
good programmer, but his real skill is that he gets what the business is about 
and what he needs to do to get from A to B and that over and over again. Now 
that's a good programmer, he is so important to the division that he gets paid 
very well, although I am sure that he'd have a tough time getting hired 
somewhere else. The formal education is often just the means to land a job. 
Once you are hired you start at zero.
I made that experience at my current job. I did QA and support for 7 years at 
IR and thought that this experience will help me a lot. It really didn't. This 
industry here works entirely differently, the audience is different and 
compared to what we did at IR what we work on now is far more important to the 
operations of our customers. That makes it much easier to get access to the 
decision makers and get IT and other resources to get a system implemented. 
That also means that the expectations are way higher.

That written, I really should get back to work....

David


From ramons at gmx.net  Tue Apr 15 10:07:41 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:07:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> This goes back to my point about the status of the profession --  if 
> we're being compared to cooks and service technicians, you know times 
> are going to be rough for us.  I'd rather be compared to a lawyer...and 
> make closer to what they make...what we do is no less complex.

Then you do not know what personal chefs make. Most of them have salaries that 
rival that of senior developers, if not top them. There are also various kinds 
of personal chefs. Some have one customer and are available 24x7, others have 
multiple customers and do the food shopping for them as well as prepare meals 
that can be reheated easily or it just happens that they manage to dish dinner 
at one place and then handily make it to the next one in time.
Besides that,  I know a few lawyers that make less than I do for twice the 
amount of work. In regards to service technicians or supporters in general, 
they are absolutely undervalued. Developers make software so that QA can test 
it, sales can sell it, and support can support it. the group that spends the 
most time with customers is support. Why would you want the least paid 
employees be the face of your company? And the developer is dead in the water 
without the service tech, but not the other way around. From that perspective 
developers should get paid low wages and get the dirty parking spots in the 
back of the lot. But I guess that adds to your point that being a lawyer is 
preferred, especially since in a judicial system like the american one you 
have job security like nothing else.

David


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Apr 15 10:08:23 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:08:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <A427383C-D87C-4778-9590-CF0DE2122615@gmail.com>
References: <480416a6.0708360a.674e.fffffc57SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
	<A427383C-D87C-4778-9590-CF0DE2122615@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240802c42a66517739@[192.168.1.101]>

At 9:41 AM -0400 4/15/08, David A. Roth wrote:
>-snip- for space sake
>
>At the very least, a candidate should walk away from the interview 
>feeling that they were actually being evaluated for what they would 
>have  to do on the job. If they had difficulty it would be obvious 
>to them on what areas they need to improve on and realize why they 
>weren't offered a job. As for the hiring manager, you want to feel 
>confident that the person you hire can do the real job and if they 
>have successfully demonstrated performing small work tasks you will 
>know for sure.
>
>David Roth

David:

All very well said.

It's obvious that you "get it" while others have difficulty 
understanding that traditional testing is not a way to measure 
programming skills.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Apr 15 10:20:48 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:20:48 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <4804B44D.2030409@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com>	<4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
	<p06240806c4298d474415@[192.168.1.101]>	<4803F260.3070105@gmx.net>
	<p06240802c42a4d93aaa4@[192.168.1.101]> <4804B44D.2030409@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <p06240804c42a69e44d73@[192.168.1.101]>

>tedd wrote:
>>No, I had not read that -- but the article drives home the point I 
>>was making in that it's very difficult to test a person's ability 
>>to program.
>
>And it is definitely language specific. Tackling a problem in PHP 
>may be way easier than using Assembler.

True, and assembler is easier than machine -- which I've done.

But after all is said and done the key is being able to vision things 
in a certain way that is not typical for the majority of people.

>That is probably true for the pure logic, but I tried pretty much 
>any programming environment I could get my hands on and I failed in 
>all but two. One was the now defunct VB6 and the other one is PHP. I 
>tried Java and C/C++ and they are just way too complicated.

All complications can be resolve in time. If you work with it long 
enough, you'll see the commonality between all languages.


>>Some of the top programmers I ever met, had no formal education. 
>>Explain that.
>
>The top programmers understand the business and therefore know the 
>expectations. -snip-


Now you're talking about the definition of a "top programmer" and on 
that, we could discus for ages.  :-)

>That written, I really should get back to work....

Same here -- nice discussion.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Apr 15 10:25:47 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:25:47 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208269547.24319@coral.he.net>

David --

My concern here isn't chiefly about the rate/salary levels in the 
profession but moreso about the general public's perception of the 
complexity of the knowledge base and effort required to be successful 
as a halfway decent programmer.

It's true that I do certainly have my opinions about rates, and think 
that the above issue is probably a prime factor in pricing.

Sorry for any confusion.

--Kristina

> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > This goes back to my point about the status of the profession --  
if 
> > we're being compared to cooks and service technicians, you know 
times 
> > are going to be rough for us.  I'd rather be compared to a 
lawyer...and 
> > make closer to what they make...what we do is no less complex.
> 
> Then you do not know what personal chefs make. Most of them have 
salaries that 
> rival that of senior developers, if not top them. There are also 
various kinds 
> of personal chefs. Some have one customer and are available 24x7, 
others have 
> multiple customers and do the food shopping for them as well as 
prepare meals 
> that can be reheated easily or it just happens that they manage to 
dish dinner 
> at one place and then handily make it to the next one in time.
> Besides that,  I know a few lawyers that make less than I do for 
twice the 
> amount of work. In regards to service technicians or supporters in 
general, 
> they are absolutely undervalued. Developers make software so that QA 
can test 
> it, sales can sell it, and support can support it. the group that 
spends the 
> most time with customers is support. Why would you want the least 
paid 
> employees be the face of your company? And the developer is dead in 
the water 
> without the service tech, but not the other way around. From that 
perspective 
> developers should get paid low wages and get the dirty parking spots 
in the 
> back of the lot. But I guess that adds to your point that being a 
lawyer is 
> preferred, especially since in a judicial system like the american 
one you 
> have job security like nothing else.
> 
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 15 10:48:01 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:48:01 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <p06240804c42a69e44d73@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com><47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org><20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com>	<4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org><p06240806c4298d474415@[192.168.1.101]>	<4803F260.3070105@gmx.net><p06240802c42a4d93aaa4@[192.168.1.101]>
	<4804B44D.2030409@gmx.net> <p06240804c42a69e44d73@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <000c01c89f07$b4988120$1dc98360$@com>

I have listened to/seen/read about many famous artistic movie directors,
photographers, professional athletes, chefs, musicians, even painters
speaking about their projects/achievements. To the one they are
extremely and profoundly well educated (however they achieved it) in all
and I mean all of the technical aspects and even the most subtle
minutiae that are the bedrock knowledge of their chosen profession.
Also, as far as I know whatever your chosen career you are going to face
a very rigorous testing of your full skill set to get to the top or
acquire the best jobs/projects before you are unleashed unchecked into
your industry. 

For example, you may hear a painter say "Well, I really don't know how I
do that. I get inspiration from anywhere around me and then it just
bursts forth". But you will also uncover that they can make their own
paint from eggs and dirt, they know and understand the concept and
content of every major art technique and why and when they use it, and
on and on and on. 

Whether totally self-taught, immaculate savant or academic thoroughbred
-- it always pays to become an knee deep expert in something before you
become a journeyman and then hands on expert.  

I see no issue with using any kind of testing to suss out
(unfortunately) the outright liars, frauds and lazy two-faced scabs that
might think a little creative deception that is closely followed by a
little creative stealing is just quite alright in their life and
transposes easily into your office.

And I would still maintain all theory aside, that a test that tests for
what your office uses and does will net you better more appropriate
people be better than a generic Q&A. 

Peter
  

 





-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of tedd
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:21 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)

>tedd wrote:
>>No, I had not read that -- but the article drives home the point I 
>>was making in that it's very difficult to test a person's ability 
>>to program.
>
>And it is definitely language specific. Tackling a problem in PHP 
>may be way easier than using Assembler.

True, and assembler is easier than machine -- which I've done.

But after all is said and done the key is being able to vision things 
in a certain way that is not typical for the majority of people.

>That is probably true for the pure logic, but I tried pretty much 
>any programming environment I could get my hands on and I failed in 
>all but two. One was the now defunct VB6 and the other one is PHP. I 
>tried Java and C/C++ and they are just way too complicated.

All complications can be resolve in time. If you work with it long 
enough, you'll see the commonality between all languages.


>>Some of the top programmers I ever met, had no formal education. 
>>Explain that.
>
>The top programmers understand the business and therefore know the 
>expectations. -snip-


Now you're talking about the definition of a "top programmer" and on 
that, we could discus for ages.  :-)

>That written, I really should get back to work....

Same here -- nice discussion.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From ajai at bitblit.net  Tue Apr 15 11:15:52 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:15:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <A427383C-D87C-4778-9590-CF0DE2122615@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804151102110.15831-100000@bitblit.net>

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008, David A. Roth wrote:

> Bringing this back to programming, webmastering, or service  
> tech'ing. :-) You want to hire a webmaster. Make a list of the kinds  
> of things you wish to have a webmaster do on the job most of their  
> time. If the job is to be able to re-partition disks or change  
> content on a corporate web site using a popular open source CMS  
> (Joomla), then I feel those are the things that should be asked of a  
> candidate to demonstrate in front of a work station. If most of their  
> job will be installing new software and configuring a system then set- 
> up some systems with packages for them to do this. This is assuming  
> if you can't entirely trust the recommendations for this person or if  
> you simply want to see if they can do what you need them to do  
> specifically. If the candidate doesn't know how to do something and  
> looks on the web to figure it out, and is still able to get the job  
> done in a reasonable amount of time than I consider this a plus,  
> because someone who is resourceful and works this way on the job is  
> better than someone who only knows what they have been shown to do.  
> Syntax examples of most things are only a few clicks away.

My personal take on all this is that "process" testing is more useful than 
"memory" testing. In other words, a good developer, systems administrator 
or tech support person should be able to demonstrate or talk through the 
process they would use to solve a particular problem. Even if it 
meant using Google, or searching a mailing list archive or even 
just looking it up in a book. "Memory" testing OTOH, where you're asked to 
regurgitate facts that you have memorized are not terribly useful tests. 

I was once in an interview where I was asking to list all the different 
kinds of RAID and what they're used for. (At the time I had been working 
for an ISP for about 5 years as a systems administrator). I know what RAID 
is and how its used because Id been using it. But damned if I knew ALL of 
the different kinds of RAID off the top of my head because certain types 
of RAID are commonly used and some are not used very much (if at all!).

The same company conducted two hour-long phone interviews with me (yeah, 
it was a bit excessive looking back on it now :-) which I did very well on 
because they were like conversations where I was given a scenario and 
asked to explain the theory and/or walk through a process.

For me, if I were hiring someone, its more important they know WHERE and 
HOW to look for an answer. A good memory doesn't mean you necessarily 
understand anything.



-- 
A



From urb at e-government.com  Tue Apr 15 11:23:21 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:23:21 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net>
 <4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080415111334.02c36568@e-government.com>


>>This goes back to my point about the status of the profession 
>>--  if we're being compared to cooks and service technicians, you 
>>know times are going to be rough for us.  I'd rather be compared to 
>>a lawyer...and make closer to what they make...what we do is no less complex.

         Profession have educational and licensing/certification 
procedures. It has virtually nothing
to do with how much money one makes. By definition, programming and 
website design is not a
profession. Lawyers require a graduate degree and passage of the bar 
exam. Teachers, in most
states, require a graduate degree and certification. And so it goes.


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From chsnyder at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 12:35:59 2008
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:35:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] safari file uploads?
In-Reply-To: <B1F26058-943A-4E46-A595-40F338B156A8@suzerain.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com> <48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<8f0676b40804141609n324fc30cm60735a6d94865f1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<48040847.6080109@pitanga.org>
	<8f0676b40804141943w1fe3adbbl202bb737047d562c@mail.gmail.com>
	<B1F26058-943A-4E46-A595-40F338B156A8@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690804150935q2fd40755rd474cfdc252d4187@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Marc Antony Vose <suzerain at suzerain.com> wrote:

>  For some reason, in Safari 3+ on OS X, file uploads are basically failing.
> It'll just hang.  It doesn't happen in any other browser.  Anyone experience
> any subtle changes in Safari's file upload behavior that could be causing
> this?

Not sure about changes, but file uploads have been working fine for me
in 3.1. Have you experienced problems on other sites, for instance
http://validator.w3.org/#validate_by_upload+with_options ?


-- 
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Apr 15 16:30:20 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:30:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080415111334.02c36568@e-government.com>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net> <4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080415111334.02c36568@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <p06240800c42abf23ab6f@[192.168.0.100]>

At 11:23 AM -0400 4/15/08, Urb LeJeune wrote:
>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
>profession.

Really? What specifically is that definition?

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From urb at e-government.com  Wed Apr 16 08:27:54 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:27:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <p06240800c42abf23ab6f@[192.168.0.100]>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net> <4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080415111334.02c36568@e-government.com>
	<p06240800c42abf23ab6f@[192.168.0.100]>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>


>>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
>>profession.
>
>Really? What specifically is that definition?

profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
that requires considerable training
and specialized study"

Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.

Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) 
designation to perform certain types of design.
I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known 
some great ones, however, a field having
a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade 
not a profession. A profession is also
self-regulated.

It's another thread but, should there be certification available for 
programmers and web designers? If we
ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was 
in the stock brokerage business when
the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
being. It was extraordinarily difficult
and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first 
designation were awarded. It required
two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
industry and these days you will not get
a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing 
happened with Chartered Financial
Planner (CFP).

I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject 
when we have drifted into a new
area?


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From consult at covenantedesign.com  Wed Apr 16 08:45:44 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:45:44 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] webmaster test (update)
In-Reply-To: <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<20080414162640.GA7309@panix.com> <4803A242.4000904@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <4805F4F8.1080900@covenantedesign.com>

wow

Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> First candidate finished his exam:
>
> Answer to 7) a= 0.5, b=1
>
> I'm not kidding...
>
> ps. I'm not hating.  I'm sharing this with the community because I 
> think it's valuable info.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>




From consult at covenantedesign.com  Wed Apr 16 08:47:43 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:47:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4803AB3A.3070902@pitanga.org>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4803AB3A.3070902@pitanga.org>
Message-ID: <4805F56F.5060300@covenantedesign.com>

I think anyone who can get 80-100% here you should hire:
http://www.justsayhi.com/bb/geek


Andr? Pitanga wrote:
> Matt Juszczak wrote:
>> So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.  
>> But I don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one 
>> defend themselves there?
>
> Just lie...  ;-)
>
> (I kid...)
>
> I guess you could say "anything but dreamweaver" (hired. went on to 
> grok vim later. lived happily ever after)
>
> or say "I used to code in emacs but it wasn't configurable enough, so 
> I'm writing my own text editor in lisp..." (not hired. escorted out of 
> building. later hired as contractor)
>
> better: "I code longhand using pencil and square-paper. By candle 
> light. Meet the debugger <shows eraser>"  (hired for research 
> computing dept.)
>
> The real question is not which editor you use to code. It's what 
> browser you use to surf. And the answer is obviously: lynx! :-)
>
> -Andr?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>




From consult at covenantedesign.com  Wed Apr 16 08:51:14 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:51:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>
	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>
	<e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4805F642.9080101@covenantedesign.com>

Eclipse rocks Jake, and I've been using it to code everything from AS-C# 
for years! I'd hire you, but i don't have any opening now. :P

Jake McGraw wrote:
> http://xkcd.com/378/
>
> I use Eclipse + PDT, guess I'm a newb.
>
> - jake
>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com> wrote:
>   
>> I use emacs
>>
>>  Matt Juszczak wrote:
>>
>>     
>>>
>>> So I consider myself to be well-versed in *nix/php/mysql/lamp/etc.  But I
>>>       
>> don't use vi.  It isn't my editor of choice.  So how would one defend
>> themselves there?
>>     
>>> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Andr? Pitanga wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Hey Edward Potter,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> And my only coder question:
>>>>> How good are you with vi at the command line?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> That's indeed all one need to know.  I wish there were more webmasters
>>>>         
>> of this ilk around though ;)
>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> And my only designer question:
>>>>> Show me cool stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> I really dislike cool stuff...  Here's my designer question:
>>>> When should a hyperlink *not* be blue and underlined? why?
>>>>
>>>> -Andr?
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> !DSPAM:48039f90367171377085587!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>
>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>
>>>       
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>
>   




From ps at sun-code.com  Wed Apr 16 09:41:24 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:41:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net>
	<4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net><7.0.1.0.2.20080415111334.02c36568@e-government.com><p06240800c42abf23ab6f@[192.168.0.100]>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <000601c89fc7$90917820$b1b46860$@com>

This is quite a strong summation.

Yet, fortunately, there is some types of accreditation for some
programming and related categories. There is Microsoft MSCE, Cisco
Certified, general network certifications, Oracle cert, Red Hat cert,
security cert, Zend PHP cert, even a Flash cert. 

So, maybe if firms and sites (PHP.net and all such related sites)
started advocating cert programs as one of, if not the first serious
step, toward an evolving measurable genuine industry competency and
competitiveness that would help programmers more effectively work
towards and achieve known knowledge levels that might have nationally
known pay scales.

Then a programmer could plan a career and salary objectives a little
more logically. And businesses could budget and allocate programmer
workforce more exactly.

Somewhere, something is all good and better than the existing free for
all. 

Warmest regards, 
?
Peter Sawczynec 
Technology Dir.
Sun-code Interactive
Sun-code.com 
646.316.3678 
ps at sun-code.com
   
  

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Urb LeJeune
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:28 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test


>>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
>>profession.
>
>Really? What specifically is that definition?

profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
that requires considerable training
and specialized study"

Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.

Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) 
designation to perform certain types of design.
I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known 
some great ones, however, a field having
a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade 
not a profession. A profession is also
self-regulated.

It's another thread but, should there be certification available for 
programmers and web designers? If we
ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was 
in the stock brokerage business when
the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
being. It was extraordinarily difficult
and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first 
designation were awarded. It required
two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
industry and these days you will not get
a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing 
happened with Chartered Financial
Planner (CFP).

I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject 
when we have drifted into a new
area?


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.


_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From consult at covenantedesign.com  Wed Apr 16 09:43:32 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:43:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net>
	<4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080415111334.02c36568@e-government.com>	<p06240800c42abf23ab6f@[192.168.0.100]>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <48060284.601@covenantedesign.com>

I'm not certain of 'Houghton Mifflin' (and whatever traces of etymology 
they use in that particular edition), but the word itself actually comes 
from the monastics/priests, in which one would 'profess' their belief. 
It was later adapted to professional, or 'one who professed an 
understanding of a skill'. It has never been attached to formal 
education or academic achievement; that would be 'academic', 
'baccalaureate </index.php?term=baccalaureate>', 'esquire' or 'master'. 
(And I hope you're not seeking your etymological proofs from wikipedia)

Clearly the word has been equivocated in this discussion, and I strongly 
suggest that a Webmaster is a 'professional', in his capacity (not 
requiring a third party approval), for he is not 'professing' to have 
skills of basket-weaving or ministry, but to have skills of a specific 
nature and practice pertaining solely to 'webmastering'. These skills 
could be verified by a third party, but that verification is not the 
foundation upon which a profession is established. Professions are 
established by a particular set of skills being required to perform a 
particular task, or set of tasks. Hence a professional 'handy-man', 
'professional student', 'professional football player', 'professional 
actor'. The entire concept to be carried in the word is to cognitively 
separate those who have mastered particular skills from those who are 
acquiring particular skills (aka Professional VS Amateur).

Then again, the word itself began in a society and time of greater moral 
concentration, so perhaps you assume that anyone who refers to 
themselves as a professional today, is either lying (if they haven't a 
third party 'approval' or tertiary educational document) or is 
equivocating upon the word, and actually means 'academic', 
'baccalaureate </index.php?term=baccalaureate>', 'esquire' or 'master' 
of 'webmastering'.

Never-the-less, referencing oneself as a 'professional' is not based 
upon academic merit, but upon personal, occupational self-reflection. 
Whether-or-not that reflection is an accurate one leads to a different 
discussion.

As an old friend once told me: "If you call yourself professional, don't 
turn out to be a Shmegegge"

-My two (well ok three) cents


Urb LeJeune wrote:
>
>>>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
>>> profession.
>>
>> Really? What specifically is that definition?
>
> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
> that requires considerable training
> and specialized study"
>
> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.
>
> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) designation 
> to perform certain types of design.
> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known some 
> great ones, however, a field having
> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade not 
> a profession. A profession is also
> self-regulated.
>
> It's another thread but, should there be certification available for 
> programmers and web designers? If we
> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was 
> in the stock brokerage business when
> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
> being. It was extraordinarily difficult
> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first 
> designation were awarded. It required
> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
> industry and these days you will not get
> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing 
> happened with Chartered Financial
> Planner (CFP).
>
> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject 
> when we have drifted into a new
> area?
>
>
> Urb
>
> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
> E-Government.com
> 609-294-0320  800-204-9545
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>




From brian at realm3.com  Wed Apr 16 09:46:50 2008
From: brian at realm3.com (Brian D.)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:46:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] On Developer Certification
Message-ID: <c7c53eda0804160646l46ec26e3u528d9c33e499ae66@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sure this has all been discussed before (with much more flair and
depth than I'm capable of) but one of the hurdles in developer
certification that appears most obvious to me is that our industry
contains so much variety.

Variety is probably not the best word for it, but what I mean is that
the developer who is creating an application for monitoring nuclear
reactors is probably going to need to be much more thorough than
another developer who's just setting up a custom blog for a popular
band. There are wide areas inside the industry that require different
levels of talent and detailedness.

Although I'm Zend certified, I think that such certifications are
really quite useless (I felt I had to get the certification just so I
could say that without sounding like a hypocrite). It proves very
little except that the developer is good at taking tests and
memorizing material. There *might* be a way to develop a test that
creates a valid stamp of approval, but I have yet to see it. Again,
the problem comes back to the variety inherent to the industry. One
test can't encompass it all. You've got medical app devs that need to
be familiar with HIPAA regulations, financial app devs that need to be
familiar with Sox, and front-end guys that need to have familiarity
with UI principles...

I could go on, but I shan't.

- Brian

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:27 AM, Urb LeJeune <urb at e-government.com> wrote:

>  It's another thread but, should there be certification available for
> programmers and web designers? If we
>  ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was in
> the stock brokerage business when
>  the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into being. It
> was extraordinarily difficult
>  and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first
> designation were awarded. It required
>  two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the industry
> and these days you will not get
>  a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing
> happened with Chartered Financial
>  Planner (CFP).
>
>  I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject when
> we have drifted into a new
>  area?
>
>
>
>  Urb
>
>  Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
>  E-Government.com
>  609-294-0320  800-204-9545
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
freelance consulting, application development
(917) 512-3594


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr 16 09:58:33 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:58:33 -0400
Subject: PHP IDEs [was: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test]
In-Reply-To: <4805F642.9080101@covenantedesign.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>	<e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4805F642.9080101@covenantedesign.com>
Message-ID: <48060609.30001@gmx.net>

Webmaster wrote:
> Eclipse rocks Jake, and I've been using it to code everything from AS-C# 
> for years! I'd hire you, but i don't have any opening now. :P

I don't think Eclipse is great for PHP. I tried several plugins for PHP and 
they all gave me just more reason not to consider Eclipse as a PHP IDE. I 
don't mean that you can't use it for PHP, but getting decent IntelliSense, 
help, and the debugger to work wasn't easy. Or is there a plugin that does all 
that?
I found NuSpehere's PHPEd to be the best, followed closely by EnginSite's and 
Waterproof's editors. The major difference is that PHPEd has a way better 
debugger implementation and as far as I can tell Luckasoft stopped working on 
the EnginSite PHP Editor. Waterproof is releasing a beta for their new version 
and that might just be worth looking at it again.
Just to note, those are all Windows based IDEs, except for PHPEd, which also 
comes in a Linux version, but since that requires buying the same license 
again I did not bother. Which brings me to the disadvantges of NuSphere. They 
ruin the fun with theit great product by not allowing a license to be valid 
for dot releases. I bought one for 5.0 and three weeks later they released 
5.1. I was quite miffed to find that the 5.0 license won't work for 5.1 and 
the changes weren't that spectacular that paying the upgrade price was worth 
it. I can see that a 5.x license won't work for a 6.x release given that 6.x 
adds substantially more features (and no, fixing bugs and design flaws aren't 
considered new features). I complained about it, but also in this case 
corporate greed won over customer satisfaction. Still, 5.0 does what I need 
and I did get it at a bargain price, so I am not that interested in discussing 
that any further with NuSphere. It's just that I probably switch once I 
outgrow what I got or it no longer works right.

Coming back to the previous topic, everyone has their preference for 
editors/IDEs and often it is just that, a preference, not a quality judgement. 
That is why I even prefer a nicely designed GUI on a server over the command 
line. Not that there is anything bad with using a command line, but for 
example installing a dozen packages via CLI vs. Synaptics makes me appreciate 
the GUI quite a bit. Just a preference, but one shared with many others.

David


From ps at sun-code.com  Wed Apr 16 10:13:38 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:13:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48060284.601@covenantedesign.com>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net><4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080415111334.02c36568@e-government.com>	<p06240800c42abf23ab6f@[192.168.0.100]><7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
	<48060284.601@covenantedesign.com>
Message-ID: <000701c89fcc$10fd7550$32f85ff0$@com>

I would posit that there has been a tipping point in all programming and
related fields including webmastering. 

That the days of stringing together some solid text pages that all ran
off a little recycled personal server that laid unsecured on the floor
under your desk are over and the content you served has basically
anecdotal info about stuff.

Today the internet has become a commerce channel, a medical tool, a
financial conduit, a personal diary/finance/calendar life organizer, an
entertainment machine, the defacto news bringer, the banking network, an
education tool.

So whether working on nuclear tools, ecommerce tools or personal
calendar tools -- there is nothing left on the internet any more that
isn't a database driven, entertainment/financial/medical/planning
conduit of tremendous personal import to millions of people. 

The pervasive need for accuracy, precision, truth, ethics and privacy is
through the roof. 

I would still agree with Dr. LeJeune, other industries (even chefing)
have schools and egregiously difficult accreditations that through trial
by fire the vast majority of participants have agreed to and come to the
vital conclusion that we need standards.

If I could wave a wand there would be association accreditations for
programming that were industry and academically recognized.

If I were running a financial institution with interactive financial
tools that reach in to millions of peoples bank accounts, I would be
damn straight strict about the quality, aptitude and proven ethics and
skills of my workers. I think that needs to be a fact today or get out
of this business because I and a lot of consumers depend quite blindly
every day that there really is some type of morality and honest purpose,
proper coordination and genuine financial skill behind all the tools we
use on the internet every day.

We need standards. One day there will yet be some massive financial
blowup where someone is going to learn that some interest calculating
script in an international money market fund was off by 1/100ths of a
penny on 33% of transactions and accidentally over 16 years time over
$400,000,000 in interest earnings were never applied to account holders.
And one of them will be a senator who lost $1,400,000 and then what? 

What incident are you waiting for?

Peter
   

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Webmaster
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:44 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test

I'm not certain of 'Houghton Mifflin' (and whatever traces of etymology 
they use in that particular edition), but the word itself actually comes

from the monastics/priests, in which one would 'profess' their belief. 
It was later adapted to professional, or 'one who professed an 
understanding of a skill'. It has never been attached to formal 
education or academic achievement; that would be 'academic', 
'baccalaureate </index.php?term=baccalaureate>', 'esquire' or 'master'. 
(And I hope you're not seeking your etymological proofs from wikipedia)

Clearly the word has been equivocated in this discussion, and I strongly

suggest that a Webmaster is a 'professional', in his capacity (not 
requiring a third party approval), for he is not 'professing' to have 
skills of basket-weaving or ministry, but to have skills of a specific 
nature and practice pertaining solely to 'webmastering'. These skills 
could be verified by a third party, but that verification is not the 
foundation upon which a profession is established. Professions are 
established by a particular set of skills being required to perform a 
particular task, or set of tasks. Hence a professional 'handy-man', 
'professional student', 'professional football player', 'professional 
actor'. The entire concept to be carried in the word is to cognitively 
separate those who have mastered particular skills from those who are 
acquiring particular skills (aka Professional VS Amateur).

Then again, the word itself began in a society and time of greater moral

concentration, so perhaps you assume that anyone who refers to 
themselves as a professional today, is either lying (if they haven't a 
third party 'approval' or tertiary educational document) or is 
equivocating upon the word, and actually means 'academic', 
'baccalaureate </index.php?term=baccalaureate>', 'esquire' or 'master' 
of 'webmastering'.

Never-the-less, referencing oneself as a 'professional' is not based 
upon academic merit, but upon personal, occupational self-reflection. 
Whether-or-not that reflection is an accurate one leads to a different 
discussion.

As an old friend once told me: "If you call yourself professional, don't

turn out to be a Shmegegge"

-My two (well ok three) cents


Urb LeJeune wrote:
>
>>>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
>>> profession.
>>
>> Really? What specifically is that definition?
>
> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
> that requires considerable training
> and specialized study"
>
> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.
>
> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) designation

> to perform certain types of design.
> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known some

> great ones, however, a field having
> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade not

> a profession. A profession is also
> self-regulated.
>
> It's another thread but, should there be certification available for 
> programmers and web designers? If we
> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was 
> in the stock brokerage business when
> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
> being. It was extraordinarily difficult
> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first 
> designation were awarded. It required
> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
> industry and these days you will not get
> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing 
> happened with Chartered Financial
> Planner (CFP).
>
> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject 
> when we have drifted into a new
> area?
>
>
> Urb
>
> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
> E-Government.com
> 609-294-0320  800-204-9545
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>


_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 10:08:38 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:08:38 -0400
Subject: PHP IDEs [was: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test]
In-Reply-To: <48060609.30001@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>
	<e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4805F642.9080101@covenantedesign.com> <48060609.30001@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804160708h644685dbo5485c49b8f8a94ab@mail.gmail.com>

>  I don't think Eclipse is great for PHP. I tried several plugins for PHP and
> they all gave me just more reason not to consider Eclipse as a PHP IDE. I
> don't mean that you can't use it for PHP, but getting decent IntelliSense,
> help, and the debugger to work wasn't easy. Or is there a plugin that does
> all that?
>  I found NuSpehere's PHPEd to be the best, followed closely by EnginSite's
> and Waterproof's editors. The major difference is that PHPEd has a way
> better debugger implementation and as far as I can tell Luckasoft stopped
> working on the EnginSite PHP Editor. Waterproof is releasing a beta for
> their new version and that might just be worth looking at it again.
>  Just to note, those are all Windows based IDEs, except for PHPEd, which
> also comes in a Linux version, but since that requires buying the same
> license again I did not bother. Which brings me to the disadvantges of
> NuSphere. They ruin the fun with theit great product by not allowing a
> license to be valid for dot releases. I bought one for 5.0 and three weeks
> later they released 5.1. I was quite miffed to find that the 5.0 license
> won't work for 5.1 and the changes weren't that spectacular that paying the
> upgrade price was worth it. I can see that a 5.x license won't work for a
> 6.x release given that 6.x adds substantially more features (and no, fixing
> bugs and design flaws aren't considered new features). I complained about
> it, but also in this case corporate greed won over customer satisfaction.
> Still, 5.0 does what I need and I did get it at a bargain price, so I am not
> that interested in discussing that any further with NuSphere. It's just that
> I probably switch once I outgrow what I got or it no longer works right.
>
>  Coming back to the previous topic, everyone has their preference for
> editors/IDEs and often it is just that, a preference, not a quality
> judgement. That is why I even prefer a nicely designed GUI on a server over
> the command line. Not that there is anything bad with using a command line,
> but for example installing a dozen packages via CLI vs. Synaptics makes me
> appreciate the GUI quite a bit. Just a preference, but one shared with many
> others.


Eclipse + PDT + (Turn code folding off, there's a bug in the latest
release) + Integrated SVN + xdebug = Win

Let's go over the pros:
 - Cross platform: Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, all exactly the same
 - All of the plugins available for Eclipse will work with PDT
installed, there are hundreds of actively supported plugins for
Eclipse
 - Free
 - Lot's of shops (as far as I can tell) use it

Besides Eclipse, I occasionally use TextMate and vim, both of which
(TextMate is light weight, vim, well, sometimes you've got to go in
and make some quick changes) have their specific benefits.

- jake


From ben at projectskyline.com  Wed Apr 16 10:54:27 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:54:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <000701c89fcc$10fd7550$32f85ff0$@com>
References: <1208267234.4859@coral.he.net><4804B6AD.3030800@gmx.net>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080415111334.02c36568@e-government.com>	<p06240800c42abf23ab6f@[192.168.0.100]><7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>	<48060284.601@covenantedesign.com>
	<000701c89fcc$10fd7550$32f85ff0$@com>
Message-ID: <48061323.4070005@projectskyline.com>

well said! +1,400,000

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> I would posit that there has been a tipping point in all programming and
> related fields including webmastering. 
>
> That the days of stringing together some solid text pages that all ran
> off a little recycled personal server that laid unsecured on the floor
> under your desk are over and the content you served has basically
> anecdotal info about stuff.
>
> Today the internet has become a commerce channel, a medical tool, a
> financial conduit, a personal diary/finance/calendar life organizer, an
> entertainment machine, the defacto news bringer, the banking network, an
> education tool.
>
> So whether working on nuclear tools, ecommerce tools or personal
> calendar tools -- there is nothing left on the internet any more that
> isn't a database driven, entertainment/financial/medical/planning
> conduit of tremendous personal import to millions of people. 
>
> The pervasive need for accuracy, precision, truth, ethics and privacy is
> through the roof. 
>
> I would still agree with Dr. LeJeune, other industries (even chefing)
> have schools and egregiously difficult accreditations that through trial
> by fire the vast majority of participants have agreed to and come to the
> vital conclusion that we need standards.
>
> If I could wave a wand there would be association accreditations for
> programming that were industry and academically recognized.
>
> If I were running a financial institution with interactive financial
> tools that reach in to millions of peoples bank accounts, I would be
> damn straight strict about the quality, aptitude and proven ethics and
> skills of my workers. I think that needs to be a fact today or get out
> of this business because I and a lot of consumers depend quite blindly
> every day that there really is some type of morality and honest purpose,
> proper coordination and genuine financial skill behind all the tools we
> use on the internet every day.
>
> We need standards. One day there will yet be some massive financial
> blowup where someone is going to learn that some interest calculating
> script in an international money market fund was off by 1/100ths of a
> penny on 33% of transactions and accidentally over 16 years time over
> $400,000,000 in interest earnings were never applied to account holders.
> And one of them will be a senator who lost $1,400,000 and then what? 
>
> What incident are you waiting for?
>
> Peter
>    
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> On Behalf Of Webmaster
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:44 AM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
>
> I'm not certain of 'Houghton Mifflin' (and whatever traces of etymology 
> they use in that particular edition), but the word itself actually comes
>
> from the monastics/priests, in which one would 'profess' their belief. 
> It was later adapted to professional, or 'one who professed an 
> understanding of a skill'. It has never been attached to formal 
> education or academic achievement; that would be 'academic', 
> 'baccalaureate </index.php?term=baccalaureate>', 'esquire' or 'master'. 
> (And I hope you're not seeking your etymological proofs from wikipedia)
>
> Clearly the word has been equivocated in this discussion, and I strongly
>
> suggest that a Webmaster is a 'professional', in his capacity (not 
> requiring a third party approval), for he is not 'professing' to have 
> skills of basket-weaving or ministry, but to have skills of a specific 
> nature and practice pertaining solely to 'webmastering'. These skills 
> could be verified by a third party, but that verification is not the 
> foundation upon which a profession is established. Professions are 
> established by a particular set of skills being required to perform a 
> particular task, or set of tasks. Hence a professional 'handy-man', 
> 'professional student', 'professional football player', 'professional 
> actor'. The entire concept to be carried in the word is to cognitively 
> separate those who have mastered particular skills from those who are 
> acquiring particular skills (aka Professional VS Amateur).
>
> Then again, the word itself began in a society and time of greater moral
>
> concentration, so perhaps you assume that anyone who refers to 
> themselves as a professional today, is either lying (if they haven't a 
> third party 'approval' or tertiary educational document) or is 
> equivocating upon the word, and actually means 'academic', 
> 'baccalaureate </index.php?term=baccalaureate>', 'esquire' or 'master' 
> of 'webmastering'.
>
> Never-the-less, referencing oneself as a 'professional' is not based 
> upon academic merit, but upon personal, occupational self-reflection. 
> Whether-or-not that reflection is an accurate one leads to a different 
> discussion.
>
> As an old friend once told me: "If you call yourself professional, don't
>
> turn out to be a Shmegegge"
>
> -My two (well ok three) cents
>
>
> Urb LeJeune wrote:
>   
>>>>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
>>>> profession.
>>>>         
>>> Really? What specifically is that definition?
>>>       
>> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
>> that requires considerable training
>> and specialized study"
>>
>> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.
>>
>> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) designation
>>     
>
>   
>> to perform certain types of design.
>> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known some
>>     
>
>   
>> great ones, however, a field having
>> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade not
>>     
>
>   
>> a profession. A profession is also
>> self-regulated.
>>
>> It's another thread but, should there be certification available for 
>> programmers and web designers? If we
>> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was 
>> in the stock brokerage business when
>> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
>> being. It was extraordinarily difficult
>> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first 
>> designation were awarded. It required
>> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
>> industry and these days you will not get
>> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing 
>> happened with Chartered Financial
>> Planner (CFP).
>>
>> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject 
>> when we have drifted into a new
>> area?
>>
>>
>> Urb
>>
>> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
>> E-Government.com
>> 609-294-0320  800-204-9545
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   


From jbaltz at altzman.com  Wed Apr 16 11:17:41 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:17:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4805F56F.5060300@covenantedesign.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>
	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4803AB3A.3070902@pitanga.org> <4805F56F.5060300@covenantedesign.com>
Message-ID: <48061895.7000606@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-16 08:47 Webmaster said the following:
> I think anyone who can get 80-100% here you should hire:
> http://www.justsayhi.com/bb/geek

I got 98%, but I want to know what knowing "who shot first" or who Smaug 
was has to do with coding or hacking.

:-P

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From andre at pitanga.org  Wed Apr 16 11:24:21 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFBpdGFuZ2E=?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:24:21 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48061895.7000606@altzman.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<47FF82A6.1000406@omnistep.com>	<48036516.4080605@pitanga.org>	<29da5d150804140725yaf2845fv69de28994bea299c@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>	<4803AB3A.3070902@pitanga.org>
	<4805F56F.5060300@covenantedesign.com>
	<48061895.7000606@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <48061A25.6070405@pitanga.org>

54%
I pass :)

Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> on 2008-04-16 08:47 Webmaster said the following:
>> I think anyone who can get 80-100% here you should hire:
>> http://www.justsayhi.com/bb/geek
>
> I got 98%, but I want to know what knowing "who shot first" or who 
> Smaug was has to do with coding or hacking.
>
> :-P
>
> //jbaltz



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 12:02:30 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:02:30 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208361750.10824@coral.he.net>

For all intents and purposes, a software engineer/application developer 
must have a bachelor's degree of some sort, and certainly after 10 
years of doing this, I consider that it takes considerable training and 
specialized study to be reasonably good.

My question to you Urb:  Would you consider me, a person with a non-CS 
university degree (B.A.), and 10 years of actual paid experience, to 
be "self taught" or merely "non traditionally formally educated"...?
It's true that the skills to be a good programmer were learned "in the 
field" and not in a classroom but isn't that true of everyone?  And to 
say "self taught" is to really underestimate the contributions of very 
brilliant people I have learned from over the years including one Dr. 
Jerry A. who posts to this list, and many others.

I would sure welcome a NYS professional license for software developers 
and want to know would anyone else want to get active on that?  It 
could require a certain number of years of actual paid experience and a 
test and whatever else...I'm 100% in favor of this if it helps us get 
more respect.  As Urb pointed out, other types of engineers do have 
licensing.  

(My previous polemic having been somewhat out of place because we were 
talking about a "webmaster test" -- but it's one thing if you are 
looking for someone who can hand code a little HTML...that's not 
necessarily a "profession" -- but if you are looking for someone who 
can administer your LAMP environment AND design & develop your LAMP 
applications then you are looking for someone with a sh*tload of 
experience and broad based experience at that...you are looking for a 
LAMP engineer not a "webmaster".  Calling this person a "webmaster" 
with all those skills is another way of keeping respect, and pay 
scales, down.)

My point having been that (no offense to the lawyers out there) it 
takes WAY MORE BRAINS to design & develop working code than it does to 
write a divorce complaint or a commercial lease -- which is what most 
lawyers do -- most of them are not litigation experts who deal with 
arcane Supreme Court decisions and get on Court TV -- and by the same 
token most software developers are not dealing with the highest, most 
arcane levels of software (whatever that might be deemed to be).

But it is a profession requiring a 4 year degree (de facto) and 
CONSIDERABLE training and specialized education...!!

> 
> >>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
> >>profession.
> >
> >Really? What specifically is that definition?
> 
> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
> that requires considerable training
> and specialized study"
> 
> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.
> 
> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) 
> designation to perform certain types of design.
> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known 
> some great ones, however, a field having
> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade 
> not a profession. A profession is also
> self-regulated.
> 
> It's another thread but, should there be certification available for 
> programmers and web designers? If we
> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was 
> in the stock brokerage business when
> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
> being. It was extraordinarily difficult
> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first 
> designation were awarded. It required
> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
> industry and these days you will not get
> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing 
> happened with Chartered Financial
> Planner (CFP).
> 
> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject 
> when we have drifted into a new
> area?
> 
> 
> Urb
> 
> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
> E-Government.com
> 609-294-0320  800-204-9545
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 12:11:40 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:11:40 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208362300.14300@coral.he.net>

Industry certifications are all well and good but state-certified 
professional licenses would be a huge step forward.  

Just think how cool it would be to have a "NYS Licensed Code Jockey" 
certificate in a huge frame on your office wall :)

Not to mention the economic & lobbying power that state professional 
organizations have.

> This is quite a strong summation.
> 
> Yet, fortunately, there is some types of accreditation for some
> programming and related categories. There is Microsoft MSCE, Cisco
> Certified, general network certifications, Oracle cert, Red Hat cert,
> security cert, Zend PHP cert, even a Flash cert. 
> 
> So, maybe if firms and sites (PHP.net and all such related sites)
> started advocating cert programs as one of, if not the first serious
> step, toward an evolving measurable genuine industry competency and
> competitiveness that would help programmers more effectively work
> towards and achieve known knowledge levels that might have nationally
> known pay scales.
> 
> Then a programmer could plan a career and salary objectives a little
> more logically. And businesses could budget and allocate programmer
> workforce more exactly.
> 
> Somewhere, something is all good and better than the existing free for
> all. 
> 
> Warmest regards, 
> ?
> Peter Sawczynec 
> Technology Dir.
> Sun-code Interactive
> Sun-code.com 
> 646.316.3678 
> ps at sun-code.com
>    
>   
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> On Behalf Of Urb LeJeune
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:28 AM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
> 
> 
> >>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
> >>profession.
> >
> >Really? What specifically is that definition?
> 
> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
> that requires considerable training
> and specialized study"
> 
> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.
> 
> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) 
> designation to perform certain types of design.
> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known 
> some great ones, however, a field having
> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade 
> not a profession. A profession is also
> self-regulated.
> 
> It's another thread but, should there be certification available for 
> programmers and web designers? If we
> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was 
> in the stock brokerage business when
> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
> being. It was extraordinarily difficult
> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first 
> designation were awarded. It required
> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
> industry and these days you will not get
> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing 
> happened with Chartered Financial
> Planner (CFP).
> 
> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject 
> when we have drifted into a new
> area?
> 
> 
> Urb
> 
> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
> E-Government.com
> 609-294-0320  800-204-9545
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From jim at bizcomputinginc.com  Wed Apr 16 12:31:31 2008
From: jim at bizcomputinginc.com (Jim Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:31:31 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208361750.10824@coral.he.net>
References: <1208361750.10824@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <480629E3.9000005@bizcomputinginc.com>

Guess 24 years experience programming in all kinds of environments with 
15 or so languages does not constitute a profession then based on your 
position that it requires a degree.  I have no degree.  I have very 
little formal training.

The problem in today's world is that too much emphasis is put on a 
degree, and not enough emphasis is put on experience.  I'm not trying to 
denigrate degrees, I wish I had one ( especially considering the heavy 
emphasis ).  But, when I entered the programming fray, degrees were not 
emphasized.  I suspect that the dearth in competent coders at the time 
was a heavy influence.

I very much like the lawyer example considering  Frank Abagnale Jr.  
Frank was made famous by Leonardo Dicaprio's portrayal in "Catch Me if 
You Can".  While the movie is an exaggeration of the reality of the 
story, according to Frank, he did pass the bar exam without any formal 
education.  Now Frank may be an exceptional intellect, but I think it 
does draw out that it is fully possible for individuals to rise to the 
industry standard without a formal education.

I consider myself a professional in a profession even without the 
degree.  In fact, I consider myself a craftsman rather than an engineer 
because I take pride in everything I do and apply ingenuity and 
creativity rather than rely on a canned set of solutions.

Once again, I do not disregard formalized education, it forms a very 
good foundation on which to build a profession.  But to assume that no 
formalized education denotes a non-professional elevates formalized 
education to the be-all and end-all for the profession.  If that were 
the case, then, students coming out of college should be fully prepared 
to BE what they trained to be.  I can't tell you how many interviews I 
have conducted with graduates who obviously lacked the skills to do the 
job.  Ability should be the bellwether, not how that ability came to be.

The real discussion is not on what qualifies one for the profession, but 
rather, how do we accurately measure ability.  I don't have the answer 
to that question.  And, I think that were an answer to that question 
readily available, there would be no need for this discussion.  Maybe 
part of the licensing process should borrow from the medical community 
and require a period of "residency".

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> For all intents and purposes, a software engineer/application developer 
> must have a bachelor's degree of some sort, and certainly after 10 
> years of doing this, I consider that it takes considerable training and 
> specialized study to be reasonably good.
>
> My question to you Urb:  Would you consider me, a person with a non-CS 
> university degree (B.A.), and 10 years of actual paid experience, to 
> be "self taught" or merely "non traditionally formally educated"...?
> It's true that the skills to be a good programmer were learned "in the 
> field" and not in a classroom but isn't that true of everyone?  And to 
> say "self taught" is to really underestimate the contributions of very 
> brilliant people I have learned from over the years including one Dr. 
> Jerry A. who posts to this list, and many others.
>
> I would sure welcome a NYS professional license for software developers 
> and want to know would anyone else want to get active on that?  It 
> could require a certain number of years of actual paid experience and a 
> test and whatever else...I'm 100% in favor of this if it helps us get 
> more respect.  As Urb pointed out, other types of engineers do have 
> licensing.  
>
> (My previous polemic having been somewhat out of place because we were 
> talking about a "webmaster test" -- but it's one thing if you are 
> looking for someone who can hand code a little HTML...that's not 
> necessarily a "profession" -- but if you are looking for someone who 
> can administer your LAMP environment AND design & develop your LAMP 
> applications then you are looking for someone with a sh*tload of 
> experience and broad based experience at that...you are looking for a 
> LAMP engineer not a "webmaster".  Calling this person a "webmaster" 
> with all those skills is another way of keeping respect, and pay 
> scales, down.)
>
> My point having been that (no offense to the lawyers out there) it 
> takes WAY MORE BRAINS to design & develop working code than it does to 
> write a divorce complaint or a commercial lease -- which is what most 
> lawyers do -- most of them are not litigation experts who deal with 
> arcane Supreme Court decisions and get on Court TV -- and by the same 
> token most software developers are not dealing with the highest, most 
> arcane levels of software (whatever that might be deemed to be).
>
> But it is a profession requiring a 4 year degree (de facto) and 
> CONSIDERABLE training and specialized education...!!
>
>   
>>>>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
>>>> profession.
>>>>         
>>> Really? What specifically is that definition?
>>>       
>> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
>> that requires considerable training
>> and specialized study"
>>
>> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.
>>
>> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) 
>> designation to perform certain types of design.
>> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known 
>> some great ones, however, a field having
>> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade 
>> not a profession. A profession is also
>> self-regulated.
>>
>> It's another thread but, should there be certification available for 
>> programmers and web designers? If we
>> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was 
>> in the stock brokerage business when
>> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
>> being. It was extraordinarily difficult
>> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first 
>> designation were awarded. It required
>> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
>> industry and these days you will not get
>> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing 
>> happened with Chartered Financial
>> Planner (CFP).
>>
>> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject 
>> when we have drifted into a new
>> area?
>>
>>
>> Urb
>>
>> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
>> E-Government.com
>> 609-294-0320  800-204-9545
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   

-------------- next part --------------
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 12:40:16 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:40:16 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208364016.24187@coral.he.net>

Jim -- after 24 years in the field, I'd suggest that probably you are 
eligible to be granted a degree based on life experience!! :)

I was certainly not saying that a degree makes any sort of difference 
in competency (it doesn't!), but only that to be considered 
a "profession" for licensing purposes, a degree (or life experience 
constituting equivalence of a 4-yr degree!) would be most likely 
required.  

Probably I would run into issues with licensing myself as my degree was 
in Literature & Linguistics (1985) ...and I used an old manual 
typewriter to do my research papers! LOL.

--Kristina

> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> 
> Guess 24 years experience programming in all kinds of environments 
with 
> 15 or so languages does not constitute a profession then based on 
your 
> position that it requires a degree.  I have no degree.  I have very 
> little formal training.
> 
> The problem in today's world is that too much emphasis is put on a 
> degree, and not enough emphasis is put on experience.  I'm not trying 
to 
> denigrate degrees, I wish I had one ( especially considering the 
heavy 
> emphasis ).  But, when I entered the programming fray, degrees were 
not 
> emphasized.  I suspect that the dearth in competent coders at the 
time 
> was a heavy influence.
> 
> I very much like the lawyer example considering  Frank Abagnale Jr.  
> Frank was made famous by Leonardo Dicaprio's portrayal in "Catch Me 
if 
> You Can".  While the movie is an exaggeration of the reality of the 
> story, according to Frank, he did pass the bar exam without any 
formal 
> education.  Now Frank may be an exceptional intellect, but I think it 
> does draw out that it is fully possible for individuals to rise to 
the 
> industry standard without a formal education.
> 
> I consider myself a professional in a profession even without the 
> degree.  In fact, I consider myself a craftsman rather than an 
engineer 
> because I take pride in everything I do and apply ingenuity and 
> creativity rather than rely on a canned set of solutions.
> 
> Once again, I do not disregard formalized education, it forms a very 
> good foundation on which to build a profession.  But to assume that 
no 
> formalized education denotes a non-professional elevates formalized 
> education to the be-all and end-all for the profession.  If that were 
> the case, then, students coming out of college should be fully 
prepared 
> to BE what they trained to be.  I can't tell you how many interviews 
I 
> have conducted with graduates who obviously lacked the skills to do 
the 
> job.  Ability should be the bellwether, not how that ability came to 
be.
> 
> The real discussion is not on what qualifies one for the profession, 
but 
> rather, how do we accurately measure ability.  I don't have the 
answer 
> to that question.  And, I think that were an answer to that question 
> readily available, there would be no need for this discussion.  Maybe 
> part of the licensing process should borrow from the medical 
community 
> and require a period of "residency".
> 
> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > For all intents and purposes, a software engineer/application 
developer 
> > must have a bachelor's degree of some sort, and certainly after 10 
> > years of doing this, I consider that it takes considerable training 
and 
> > specialized study to be reasonably good.
> >
> > My question to you Urb:  Would you consider me, a person with a non-
CS 
> > university degree (B.A.), and 10 years of actual paid experience, 
to 
> > be "self taught" or merely "non traditionally formally educated"...?
> > It's true that the skills to be a good programmer were learned "in 
the 
> > field" and not in a classroom but isn't that true of everyone?  And 
to 
> > say "self taught" is to really underestimate the contributions of 
very 
> > brilliant people I have learned from over the years including one 
Dr. 
> > Jerry A. who posts to this list, and many others.
> >
> > I would sure welcome a NYS professional license for software 
developers 
> > and want to know would anyone else want to get active on that?  It 
> > could require a certain number of years of actual paid experience 
and a 
> > test and whatever else...I'm 100% in favor of this if it helps us 
get 
> > more respect.  As Urb pointed out, other types of engineers do have 
> > licensing.  
> >
> > (My previous polemic having been somewhat out of place because we 
were 
> > talking about a "webmaster test" -- but it's one thing if you are 
> > looking for someone who can hand code a little HTML...that's not 
> > necessarily a "profession" -- but if you are looking for someone 
who 
> > can administer your LAMP environment AND design & develop your LAMP 
> > applications then you are looking for someone with a sh*tload of 
> > experience and broad based experience at that...you are looking for 
a 
> > LAMP engineer not a "webmaster".  Calling this person a "webmaster" 
> > with all those skills is another way of keeping respect, and pay 
> > scales, down.)
> >
> > My point having been that (no offense to the lawyers out there) it 
> > takes WAY MORE BRAINS to design & develop working code than it does 
to 
> > write a divorce complaint or a commercial lease -- which is what 
most 
> > lawyers do -- most of them are not litigation experts who deal with 
> > arcane Supreme Court decisions and get on Court TV -- and by the 
same 
> > token most software developers are not dealing with the highest, 
most 
> > arcane levels of software (whatever that might be deemed to be).
> >
> > But it is a profession requiring a 4 year degree (de facto) and 
> > CONSIDERABLE training and specialized education...!!
> >
> >   
> >>>>  By definition, programming and website design is not a
> >>>> profession.
> >>>>         
> >>> Really? What specifically is that definition?
> >>>       
> >> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
> >> that requires considerable training
> >> and specialized study"
> >>
> >> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.
> >>
> >> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) 
> >> designation to perform certain types of design.
> >> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known 
> >> some great ones, however, a field having
> >> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade 
> >> not a profession. A profession is also
> >> self-regulated.
> >>
> >> It's another thread but, should there be certification available 
for 
> >> programmers and web designers? If we
> >> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I 
was 
> >> in the stock brokerage business when
> >> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into 
> >> being. It was extraordinarily difficult
> >> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the 
first 
> >> designation were awarded. It required
> >> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the 
> >> industry and these days you will not get
> >> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same 
thing 
> >> happened with Chartered Financial
> >> Planner (CFP).
> >>
> >> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the 
subject 
> >> when we have drifted into a new
> >> area?
> >>
> >>
> >> Urb
> >>
> >> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
> >> E-Government.com
> >> 609-294-0320  800-204-9545
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your 
expectations.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >>
> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >>
> >>
> >>     
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> >   
> 
> 
> 


From krook at us.ibm.com  Wed Apr 16 12:44:34 2008
From: krook at us.ibm.com (Daniel Krook)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:44:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test [Open Group IT certification]
In-Reply-To: <1208361750.10824@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <OFD6B6C476.B88698E8-ON8525742D.005936AA-8525742D.005BF937@us.ibm.com>

Hello,

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> I would sure welcome a NYS professional license for 
> software developers 
> and want to know would anyone else want to get active on that?  It 
> could require a certain number of years of actual paid 
> experience and a 
> test and whatever else...I'm 100% in favor of this if it 
> helps us get 
> more respect.  As Urb pointed out, other types of engineers do have 
> licensing.

Jim Hendricks wrote:
> The real discussion is not on what qualifies one for the 
> profession, but rather, how do we accurately measure 
> ability.  I don't have the answer to that question.  And, 
> I think that were an answer to that question readily 
> available, there would be no need for this discussion. 
> Maybe part of the licensing process should borrow from the
> medical community and require a period of "residency".

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> So, maybe if firms and sites (PHP.net and all such related sites)
> started advocating cert programs as one of, if not the first serious
> step, toward an evolving measurable genuine industry competency and
> competitiveness that would help programmers more effectively work
> towards and achieve known knowledge levels that might have nationally
> known pay scales.
> 
> Then a programmer could plan a career and salary objectives a little
> more logically. And businesses could budget and allocate programmer
> workforce more exactly.
> 
> Somewhere, something is all good and better than the existing free for
> all. 


Kristina, Jim & PSaw,

This is the gap that The Open Group aims to address. 

Their IT Architect and new (looks like just released) IT Specialist 
programs require you to submit a package detailing your education, but 
more importantly, experience and project history.  There's a baseline that 
needs to be met for certain skills, along with a board review. 

It requires a significant amount of time (and cost, though cheaper than a 
degree) to prepare.   The program is not technology specific and measures 
people and business skills as well.

This differs from a traditional approach to certification which requires 
the user to sit for a two hour test and answer some multiple choice 
questions.   It might be worth looking into.

Certification overview
http://www.opengroup.org/certification/

IT Specialist Certification Progam
http://www.opengroup.org/itsc/cert/

IT Spec Cert Guide
http://www.opengroup.org/itsc/cert/docs/ITSC_Certification_Guide.html

Package templates
http://www.opengroup.org/itsc/cert/docs/templates.tpl



-Dan

Daniel Krook
Senior IT Specialist
Content Tools Developer - SCSA, SCJP, SCWCD, ZCE, ICDAssoc.
Global Solutions, ibm.com




From mailinglists at caseysoftware.com  Wed Apr 16 13:06:59 2008
From: mailinglists at caseysoftware.com (Keith Casey)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:06:59 -0400
Subject: PHP IDEs [was: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test]
In-Reply-To: <48060609.30001@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>
	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>
	<e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4805F642.9080101@covenantedesign.com> <48060609.30001@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <fd219f0f0804161006i21103460q8fe71d5ccd0330a4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:58 AM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:
>  Coming back to the previous topic, everyone has their preference for
> editors/IDEs and often it is just that, a preference, not a quality
> judgement. That is why I even prefer a nicely designed GUI on a server over
> the command line. Not that there is anything bad with using a command line,
> but for example installing a dozen packages via CLI vs. Synaptics makes me
> appreciate the GUI quite a bit. Just a preference, but one shared with many
> others.

Just for a shameless plug... this year at the DCPHP Conference in June
- http://dcphpconference.com/ - I'm moderating a PHP IDE shootout.  We
have a pretty good selection of tools represented:

Cal Evans from Zend (Zend IDE);
Wez Furlong from OmniTI (VI/Vim);
Jeff Griffiths from ActiveState (Komodo);
David Sklar from Ning (Emacs);
Eli White from Digg (Textmate);

I've already heard from a few of them talking trash and sharpening
their skills, so it should be a good one.  ;)

kc

-- 
D. Keith Casey Jr.
CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
http://CaseySoftware.com


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr 16 13:30:43 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:30:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208362300.14300@coral.he.net>
References: <1208362300.14300@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <480637C3.5000003@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Industry certifications are all well and good but state-certified 
> professional licenses would be a huge step forward.  
> 
> Just think how cool it would be to have a "NYS Licensed Code Jockey" 
> certificate in a huge frame on your office wall :)
> 
> Not to mention the economic & lobbying power that state professional 
> organizations have.

Like it is with electricians? No way! An electrician licensed in Mass is not 
allowed to install a wall outlet in NYS. I wonder why? Are the outlets 
different? Does NYS use a totally different form of electrical power? So with 
a state license for coders you can code PHP in NYS, but nobody is allowed to 
run that on an out-of-state server?

Certs are something to get hired into a position, but they have the advantage 
to be more specialized. Unlike a bachelor's degree. 2/3rd of the study time 
are wasted for English, history, art, and whatever else non-major garbage the 
universities make students take. Some universities may be better than others 
and thus offer better bachelor programs, but the most are nothing more than 
mainly catching up what high school didn't bother to teach. I really don't get 
why a bachelor student has to read "The Great Gatsby" for the nth time when 
majoring in CS.
I got by BS from a german university and 30 courses and labs were on-topic, 
with 3 electives venturing into less subject related areas. I took mass 
communication, work safety and technical English. I went on to getting an MS 
at a US university and there was really only one course that didn't consist of 
brainless busy work, but challenged one's mind and had one think. Without 
doubt, that was the course I learned most.
 From that view point I think certifications are a good thing, but it depends. 
There are certs for QA folks and tech writers and I think the vast majority of 
people working in those trades (it's not a profession, isn't it?) don't have 
any and don't plan on getting them. Especially for tech writing, getting a 
cert is something recommended for those who were car mechanics before or horse 
racing judges that didn't make it into FEMA.
Certs are a proof that you are capable of systematic learning and performing 
when needed, just like a bachelor, master, or doctoral degree. It doesn't say 
anything how qualified one is for the job and thus shouldn't be generally a 
requirement unless loss of life and property are directly dependent on that 
accuracy of the work. So having a national cert for an electrician is OK, 
which would include training on special regional requirements (such as piping 
all lines up to the 10th floor in NYC) and how to go about obtaining 
information about regional regulations. Interestingly enough, there is no 
certification required for someone to work on your car breaks.

David


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr 16 13:35:29 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:35:29 -0400
Subject: PHP IDEs [was: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test]
In-Reply-To: <fd219f0f0804161006i21103460q8fe71d5ccd0330a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<48037145.5090103@pitanga.org>	<e065b8610804140809y2f02b63fh8e8f961ee990a000@mail.gmail.com>	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>	<e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>	<4805F642.9080101@covenantedesign.com>
	<48060609.30001@gmx.net>
	<fd219f0f0804161006i21103460q8fe71d5ccd0330a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480638E1.40609@gmx.net>

Keith Casey wrote:
  > Just for a shameless plug... this year at the DCPHP Conference in June
> - http://dcphpconference.com/ - I'm moderating a PHP IDE shootout.  We
> have a pretty good selection of tools represented:
> 
> Cal Evans from Zend (Zend IDE);
> Wez Furlong from OmniTI (VI/Vim);
> Jeff Griffiths from ActiveState (Komodo);
> David Sklar from Ning (Emacs);
> Eli White from Digg (Textmate);
> 
> I've already heard from a few of them talking trash and sharpening
> their skills, so it should be a good one.  ;)

Nobody from NuSphere? They hired the guy who created dbg, which is _the_ PHP 
debugger. The other's that I mentioned before are probably not interested. 
Luckasoft makes the PHP Editor as a side product, they generally make software 
for product packaging. And Waterproof is from France and they seem to be a 
small shop.
And why ZEND? I tried ZEND and I think it rapidly inhales. I guess that is 
good for the other guys. Komodo is nice, but again, they also somehow can't 
get the debugger to work like NuSphere does.
Want me to come and diss all of them?

David


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 13:46:39 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:46:39 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net>

You have a valid point about the state certs...which could be 
problematic...however, I do take exception with your characterization 
of liberal arts courses and degrees as "garbage"...as a non-CS major 
who is now in the field and also as someone who believes STRONGLY in 
the "non-vocational, liberal arts model of post-secondary education" 
(i.e. the university is NOT a vocational school).

> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Industry certifications are all well and good but state-certified 
> > professional licenses would be a huge step forward.  
> > 
> > Just think how cool it would be to have a "NYS Licensed Code 
Jockey" 
> > certificate in a huge frame on your office wall :)
> > 
> > Not to mention the economic & lobbying power that state 
professional 
> > organizations have.
> 
> Like it is with electricians? No way! An electrician licensed in Mass 
is not 
> allowed to install a wall outlet in NYS. I wonder why? Are the 
outlets 
> different? Does NYS use a totally different form of electrical power? 
So with 
> a state license for coders you can code PHP in NYS, but nobody is 
allowed to 
> run that on an out-of-state server?
> 
> Certs are something to get hired into a position, but they have the 
advantage 
> to be more specialized. Unlike a bachelor's degree. 2/3rd of the 
study time 
> are wasted for English, history, art, and whatever else non-major 
garbage the 
> universities make students take. Some universities may be better than 
others 
> and thus offer better bachelor programs, but the most are nothing 
more than 
> mainly catching up what high school didn't bother to teach. I really 
don't get 
> why a bachelor student has to read "The Great Gatsby" for the nth 
time when 
> majoring in CS.
> I got by BS from a german university and 30 courses and labs were on-
topic, 
> with 3 electives venturing into less subject related areas. I took 
mass 
> communication, work safety and technical English. I went on to 
getting an MS 
> at a US university and there was really only one course that didn't 
consist of 
> brainless busy work, but challenged one's mind and had one think. 
Without 
> doubt, that was the course I learned most.
>  From that view point I think certifications are a good thing, but it 
depends. 
> There are certs for QA folks and tech writers and I think the vast 
majority of 
> people working in those trades (it's not a profession, isn't it?) 
don't have 
> any and don't plan on getting them. Especially for tech writing, 
getting a 
> cert is something recommended for those who were car mechanics before 
or horse 
> racing judges that didn't make it into FEMA.
> Certs are a proof that you are capable of systematic learning and 
performing 
> when needed, just like a bachelor, master, or doctoral degree. It 
doesn't say 
> anything how qualified one is for the job and thus shouldn't be 
generally a 
> requirement unless loss of life and property are directly dependent 
on that 
> accuracy of the work. So having a national cert for an electrician is 
OK, 
> which would include training on special regional requirements (such 
as piping 
> all lines up to the 10th floor in NYC) and how to go about obtaining 
> information about regional regulations. Interestingly enough, there 
is no 
> certification required for someone to work on your car breaks.
> 
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From mailinglists at caseysoftware.com  Wed Apr 16 15:55:15 2008
From: mailinglists at caseysoftware.com (Keith Casey)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:55:15 -0400
Subject: PHP IDEs [was: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: webmaster test]
In-Reply-To: <480638E1.40609@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380804140846o2349b1f1h225ca21e5a799d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4803940A.8060001@pitanga.org>
	<20080414141824.T36911@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4803A928.30208@projectskyline.com>
	<e065b8610804141251k697f8e65oecbbd5e8a5a6def7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4805F642.9080101@covenantedesign.com> <48060609.30001@gmx.net>
	<fd219f0f0804161006i21103460q8fe71d5ccd0330a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<480638E1.40609@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <fd219f0f0804161255x61a4add3x6e47c7156f346dea@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:35 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:
>  Want me to come and diss all of them?

There's nothing like a good geek fight first thing in the morning.  ;)

Seriously though, if you - or anyone else - has questions, comments,
etc that you'd like thrown in the hat for consideration, drop me a
note - keith [at] caseysoftware dot com is better - and I'll add them
to the list.  This event is for the community and despite being
friends with a couple of the guys, I'd like to see the hard questions
fielded.  Fire away!

And showing up would be cool too.  ;)

keith

-- 
D. Keith Casey Jr.
CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
http://CaseySoftware.com


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr 16 17:02:49 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:02:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> You have a valid point about the state certs...which could be 
> problematic...however, I do take exception with your characterization 
> of liberal arts courses and degrees as "garbage"...as a non-CS major 
> who is now in the field and also as someone who believes STRONGLY in 
> the "non-vocational, liberal arts model of post-secondary education" 
> (i.e. the university is NOT a vocational school).

Well, I've looked at programs from state universities for mainly science and 
engineering programs and depending on the university between 1/3rd and 2/3rd 
of the courses required have nothing to do with the major. My point is that 
after 12 years of public schooling a student shouldn't need yet another 
English or history course when studying biology or civil engineering.
I did not state that liberal art degrees are garbage, but the same would apply 
to those when an English major is forced to take an introductory physics 
course unless it is for the sake of studying the language used in science.I 
just don't think it is applicable to give someone a BSEE degree when the 
majority of courses attended had nothing to do with electrical engineering. 
That absolutely devalues the BS degree, but I squarely blame the universities 
for that.
See, I consider a university not to be a continuation of high school. A 
university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field of choice 
with the goal to make them subject matter experts in that field. This is how 
many other university systems in the world understand "higher education". One 
reason why foreign specialists are so attractive to US businesses...and the 
fact that under H1B via the employees are tied to the company and can be made 
to do the same job for less money.
I think the liberal arts model is purely used for the reason that most high 
school graduates are not ready for university studies. As a student I want to 
become an expert in the field and not have to learn about the geography of the 
former soviet union or learn polish to cover the foreign language requirement 
(this is what my wife took while getting her BS degree).

Just to make this clear, I did not evaluate and test study at all US 
universities, but I did look at the bachelor programs offered by several state 
univerties in the northeast. I eventually got my MS degree at CCSU and 
compared to the courses I had to attend at the University of Applied Sciences 
in D?sseldorf, Germany that MS level courses were a joke (except for 
Production Management). See, as a young person who goes into deep debt to 
finance a university education I'd want to get some kick ass training and not 
a bunch of fluff courses that make me redo what was covered in high school 
already. Why spend 1,000$ a course to take Art History 101 and Power Walking 
058 when going for a CS degree? I admit that there are courses that are not 
on-subject, but still very important, such as ethics (ask yourself if it is 
really OK to build the next nuclear bomb or the next 800hp, 8 ton version of a 
Hummer), human relations in organizations (be creative and do something else 
other than fire people), and maybe even basic business accounting. And if it 
is has to be a hisry course, provide one that applies to the major. I rather 
have a CS graduate who knows who invented the first applied programming 
language rather than one who knows all about President Hoover (no, he did not 
invent the vacuum cleaner). Maybe with better trained university graduates the 
need for certifications would be a moot point.

Also, I am in no way intent to ridicule BS/BA degree holders or suggest that 
they didn't work hard for their degree. I just think that especially CS 
graduates should rather read Complaint Management by Stauss & Seidel rather 
than Huckleberry Finn for the third time.

David



From paul at devonianfarm.com  Wed Apr 16 17:32:12 2008
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (paul at devonianfarm.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:32:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <52113.192.168.1.71.1208381532.webmail@192.168.1.71>

<rant>
    This is a continuity reboot of the "Webmaster test" thread.

    I'm a member of the ACM,  although I don't know why.  There's a lot of handwringing in "Communications of the ACM" about the state of the IT job markets...  Is it expanding or contracting?  Why aren't more women in IT?  It sounds like "blah blah blah" to me.

    You hear a lot of talk about the threat of outsourcing to US IT jobs...  The way I see it,  outsourcing doesn't cause unemployment for IT workers but it does lower our pay and it does lower our social status -- which is the point people don't talk about.

    I see two things that suck about careers in IT:  (1) the pay,  and (2) working for people who don't know what they hell they're doing.

    I'm not going to complain about my current situation,  which is pretty much what I need at this point in my life,  but,  like a lot of people in IT,  I've worked at a string of crazy places.

    IT jobs pay better than working for Wal*Mart,  but my brother-in-law,  who works as a foreman on a construction site,  gets paid better than me -- despite the fact that I've got twice the education and skills that seem to be rare and in demand...  (It's always seemed that way no matter which side of the table I've sit at in job interviews)  Construction workers have a union,  but IT people don't work.

    Last summer I was a contractor at a company that had a great culture,  great clients and was working with interesting and fun technology.  I got offered a job that had a big 401K (makes wall street rich) and the potential for a large bonus,  but no health insurance.  I mean,  I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?

    The work I do takes as much training,  skill and independent thought as being a doctor,  a lawyer or accountant -- but I don't get paid accordingly and I don't get the respect...  For a while I worked at a place that hosted a talk by the author of a book called "Leading Geeks" -- could anybody get away with writing a book about "Leading Niggers?"

    Connected with the low social status of IT,  there's the whole problem of taking orders from people who don't know what's going on...  There are certainly some counterexamples...  Certainly some places that know what time it is,  but there's a reason why so many people feel like Dilbert.
</rant>

===============

Generation Five Interactive
http://gen5.info/q/




From tom at supertom.com  Wed Apr 16 18:44:28 2008
From: tom at supertom.com (Tom Melendez)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:44:28 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <52113.192.168.1.71.1208381532.webmail@192.168.1.71>
References: <52113.192.168.1.71.1208381532.webmail@192.168.1.71>
Message-ID: <117286890804161544t7a782dh7289b9be4b1d9205@mail.gmail.com>

Guys, I have to be honest, this  "Webmaster test" and its associated
threads are a train wreck for me.  I can't stop reading them, although
admittedly I find them ridiculous.

I do believe in the saying, "if you don't have something nice to
say..." which is why I haven't commented thus far, but if this email
below is flamebait, then, well, you got me (and no, I'm not the type
to fall for Rick Rolls).

"Connected with the low social status of IT"
"I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?"
"I see two things that suck about careers in IT:  (1) the pay"

Are you kidding me?  Listen, I don't know you or your status, but this
is not the life I've lived through my career in technology or the
perception I have of the industry, nor is it that of my friends and
colleagues.  I mean no disrespect, but have you actually tried
looking?

To be fair, IT is a very general term, and I suspect you might be in
the more traditional definition of it, meaning corporate LAN support
and the like.  But for web engineers, this should not be the case,
despite the recession.  To be blunt, I have friends and colleagues
with multiple offers, from the "big guys".  The recruiters are calling
and messaging on the social networking sites daily.  So, to paint the
picture that this field is disintegrating, or not really a profession,
or whatever, to lurkers, newbies and veterans alike is just plain
wrong.

As for that 3 comment I flagged, well, I do agree with the 2nd point
you listed there.  That does suck.  But, then again, you see that in
every industry.

And for those yearning for a life of state licensing and unions,
please be careful what you wish for.  The same system that protects
many also keeps many others out of work.  Ask a Long Island K-12
teacher why they can't get a job even though they are at the top of
their field.  Ask any contractor that has to compete on the lowest
possible price because they are bound by law to do things a certain
way with certain tools with certain procedures.  They've commoditized
their industries and now can't differentiate themselves from others in
their field.  And, when was the last time you saw any real innovation
in those fields that made its way to us?  I'm still turning on the
lights the same way my parents did.

Tom


On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:32 PM,  <paul at devonianfarm.com> wrote:
> <rant>
>     This is a continuity reboot of the "Webmaster test" thread.
>
>     I'm a member of the ACM,  although I don't know why.  There's a lot of handwringing in "Communications of the ACM" about the state of the IT job markets...  Is it expanding or contracting?  Why aren't more women in IT?  It sounds like "blah blah blah" to me.
>
>     You hear a lot of talk about the threat of outsourcing to US IT jobs...  The way I see it,  outsourcing doesn't cause unemployment for IT workers but it does lower our pay and it does lower our social status -- which is the point people don't talk about.
>
>     I see two things that suck about careers in IT:  (1) the pay,  and (2) working for people who don't know what they hell they're doing.
>
>     I'm not going to complain about my current situation,  which is pretty much what I need at this point in my life,  but,  like a lot of people in IT,  I've worked at a string of crazy places.
>
>     IT jobs pay better than working for Wal*Mart,  but my brother-in-law,  who works as a foreman on a construction site,  gets paid better than me -- despite the fact that I've got twice the education and skills that seem to be rare and in demand...  (It's always seemed that way no matter which side of the table I've sit at in job interviews)  Construction workers have a union,  but IT people don't work.
>
>     Last summer I was a contractor at a company that had a great culture,  great clients and was working with interesting and fun technology.  I got offered a job that had a big 401K (makes wall street rich) and the potential for a large bonus,  but no health insurance.  I mean,  I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?
>
>     The work I do takes as much training,  skill and independent thought as being a doctor,  a lawyer or accountant -- but I don't get paid accordingly and I don't get the respect...  For a while I worked at a place that hosted a talk by the author of a book called "Leading Geeks" -- could anybody get away with writing a book about "Leading Niggers?"
>
>     Connected with the low social status of IT,  there's the whole problem of taking orders from people who don't know what's going on...  There are certainly some counterexamples...  Certainly some places that know what time it is,  but there's a reason why so many people feel like Dilbert.
>  </rant>
>
>  ===============
>
>  Generation Five Interactive
>  http://gen5.info/q/
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 19:59:44 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:59:44 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>

Tom -- 

The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in 
business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about 
150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than 
we do.

The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self 
employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty 
constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K 
barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)

And you don't feel this is an ISSUE?  You don't honestly feel that the 
social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of 
us are underpaid?

Come on, work with us.  

-- Kristina

> Guys, I have to be honest, this  "Webmaster test" and its associated
> threads are a train wreck for me.  I can't stop reading them, although
> admittedly I find them ridiculous.
> 
> I do believe in the saying, "if you don't have something nice to
> say..." which is why I haven't commented thus far, but if this email
> below is flamebait, then, well, you got me (and no, I'm not the type
> to fall for Rick Rolls).
> 
> "Connected with the low social status of IT"
> "I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?"
> "I see two things that suck about careers in IT:  (1) the pay"
> 
> Are you kidding me?  Listen, I don't know you or your status, but this
> is not the life I've lived through my career in technology or the
> perception I have of the industry, nor is it that of my friends and
> colleagues.  I mean no disrespect, but have you actually tried
> looking?
> 
> To be fair, IT is a very general term, and I suspect you might be in
> the more traditional definition of it, meaning corporate LAN support
> and the like.  But for web engineers, this should not be the case,
> despite the recession.  To be blunt, I have friends and colleagues
> with multiple offers, from the "big guys".  The recruiters are calling
> and messaging on the social networking sites daily.  So, to paint the
> picture that this field is disintegrating, or not really a profession,
> or whatever, to lurkers, newbies and veterans alike is just plain
> wrong.
> 
> As for that 3 comment I flagged, well, I do agree with the 2nd point
> you listed there.  That does suck.  But, then again, you see that in
> every industry.
> 
> And for those yearning for a life of state licensing and unions,
> please be careful what you wish for.  The same system that protects
> many also keeps many others out of work.  Ask a Long Island K-12
> teacher why they can't get a job even though they are at the top of
> their field.  Ask any contractor that has to compete on the lowest
> possible price because they are bound by law to do things a certain
> way with certain tools with certain procedures.  They've commoditized
> their industries and now can't differentiate themselves from others in
> their field.  And, when was the last time you saw any real innovation
> in those fields that made its way to us?  I'm still turning on the
> lights the same way my parents did.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:32 PM,  <paul at devonianfarm.com> wrote:
> > <rant>
> >     This is a continuity reboot of the "Webmaster test" thread.
> >
> >     I'm a member of the ACM,  although I don't know why.  There's a 
lot of handwringing in "Communications of the ACM" about the state of 
the IT job markets...  Is it expanding or contracting?  Why aren't more 
women in IT?  It sounds like "blah blah blah" to me.
> >
> >     You hear a lot of talk about the threat of outsourcing to US IT 
jobs...  The way I see it,  outsourcing doesn't cause unemployment for 
IT workers but it does lower our pay and it does lower our social 
status -- which is the point people don't talk about.
> >
> >     I see two things that suck about careers in IT:  (1) the pay,  
and (2) working for people who don't know what they hell they're doing.
> >
> >     I'm not going to complain about my current situation,  which is 
pretty much what I need at this point in my life,  but,  like a lot of 
people in IT,  I've worked at a string of crazy places.
> >
> >     IT jobs pay better than working for Wal*Mart,  but my brother-
in-law,  who works as a foreman on a construction site,  gets paid 
better than me -- despite the fact that I've got twice the education 
and skills that seem to be rare and in demand...  (It's always seemed 
that way no matter which side of the table I've sit at in job 
interviews)  Construction workers have a union,  but IT people don't 
work.
> >
> >     Last summer I was a contractor at a company that had a great 
culture,  great clients and was working with interesting and fun 
technology.  I got offered a job that had a big 401K (makes wall street 
rich) and the potential for a large bonus,  but no health insurance.  I 
mean,  I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?
> >
> >     The work I do takes as much training,  skill and independent 
thought as being a doctor,  a lawyer or accountant -- but I don't get 
paid accordingly and I don't get the respect...  For a while I worked 
at a place that hosted a talk by the author of a book called "Leading 
Geeks" -- could anybody get away with writing a book about "Leading 
Niggers?"
> >
> >     Connected with the low social status of IT,  there's the whole 
problem of taking orders from people who don't know what's going on...  
There are certainly some counterexamples...  Certainly some places that 
know what time it is,  but there's a reason why so many people feel 
like Dilbert.
> >  </rant>
> >
> >  ===============
> >
> >  Generation Five Interactive
> >  http://gen5.info/q/
> >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From tom at supertom.com  Wed Apr 16 20:31:11 2008
From: tom at supertom.com (Tom Melendez)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:31:11 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>
References: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <117286890804161731m1a4b8dd0raea7584800e0a4b6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kristina,

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Kristina Anderson
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> Tom --
>
>  The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in
>  business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about
>  150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than
>  we do.

I have what I consider to be more than average experience with
electricians and they are nice folks, but hardly what I'd call on the
top of the "social status" scale and I would question what the average
salary was, but I doubt your numbers.

Really, I doubt your "average".  But it doesn't matter.  You make what
you do because that is what you are willing to work for.  Suppose the
floor fell out of IT tomorrow (literally), and the going rate for PHP
was $10 per hour.  Would you still do it?  Maybe for fun, but not as a
job.  Why?  Because you won't work for that little.  You couldn't
survive.  But you can survive on $80K (or whatever), so you do it.
When you decide that $80K isn't enough, you'll stop working for that
much.

>
>  The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self
>  employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty
>  constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K
>  barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)

Look at your market.  The "big" consulting firms charge much more and
pay their people much more.  How come they are getting it and you are
not?  That's the question you need to ask.  You shouldn't be looking
for protection from the marketplace, you should be looking for ways to
excel in it.

>
>  Come on, work with us.
>
I am, really!  I'm telling you to not look to others to solve your
problem - it won't help.  Look at things Social Security and pension
plans.  These systems put the burden on others - and they both have
severe flaws which are hurting us now.

Look at what you can do to excel.  How are your sales efforts
(speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be embraced, not
feared)?  Professional networking?  Who is your customer?  Are their
pockets deep enough?  Are you really taking advantage of your
expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at heart)?
 How can you get the work done faster?  Can you invest in tools (store
bought or that you create) to help?  Invest in services?  People?  Can
you reuse code?  Are you tracking problems so that you don't make the
same mistake again?

There are answers, but no one just pays more for your services "just because".

Tom


From tgales at tgaconnect.com  Wed Apr 16 20:42:52 2008
From: tgales at tgaconnect.com (Tim Gales)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:42:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>
References: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <48069D0C.4050105@tgaconnect.com>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Tom -- 
>
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in 
> business for themselves makes about the same. 
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Corporate_Attorney/Salary
>  The average CPA, about 
> 150K.  
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Accountant/Salary

-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 20:48:06 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:48:06 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>

Tom, like a lot of the folks on this list, I'm a PHP programmer 
developing internet applications (coding forms, building MySQL 
databases, meeting with clients to determine requirements, etc. etc.).  
I've been doing this (in different languages and platforms) for 10 
years and in PHP for the past 2 years (and love PHP!).  I do this for a 
living because I like doing it, I'd probably be better off in 
retirement if I went to law school in the near future but I don't want 
to do this.  I want to be a programmer.  I just want to get paid what 
my skills are WORTH as a programmer.

I'd love to charge my clients more.  And I've recently gotten wise to 
opportunities where clients are able to offer me part ownership of 
startups in addition to hourly consulting rates.  But...I do think that 
clients price things out and give bids to people who charge reasonable 
rates.  There is a reason I get 90% of the projects I bid on.  If I 
asked for $100 an hour, that would be great, but $100 an hour for 0 
hours is, well....zero dollars.

As a self employed person I'd love to hear any real, usable suggestions 
on how to increase income.  My network is great and I have tons of 
projects going, business is growing every day as I meet new 
people...but the market does price at a certain level and if I start 
asking for more than people can afford, or more than others with my 
same skills are getting paid...I am not going to get hired.

Your libertarian jawflap about how Social Security is  "hurting us" (I 
disagree) and how the market is totally open for me to charge whatever 
I want are well...interesting theory and pretty typical politics for a 
certain segment of the IT industry...but.  And saying I "look to 
others" to "solve my problems" is beyond a low blow, it's just too 
stupid a remark to even rebut.

Thanks,

Kristina

> Hi Kristina,
> 
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Kristina Anderson
> <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> > Tom --
> >
> >  The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney 
in
> >  business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, 
about
> >  150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more 
than
> >  we do.
> 
> I have what I consider to be more than average experience with
> electricians and they are nice folks, but hardly what I'd call on the
> top of the "social status" scale and I would question what the average
> salary was, but I doubt your numbers.
> 
> Really, I doubt your "average".  But it doesn't matter.  You make what
> you do because that is what you are willing to work for.  Suppose the
> floor fell out of IT tomorrow (literally), and the going rate for PHP
> was $10 per hour.  Would you still do it?  Maybe for fun, but not as a
> job.  Why?  Because you won't work for that little.  You couldn't
> survive.  But you can survive on $80K (or whatever), so you do it.
> When you decide that $80K isn't enough, you'll stop working for that
> much.
> 
> >
> >  The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self
> >  employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty
> >  constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K
> >  barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> 
> Look at your market.  The "big" consulting firms charge much more and
> pay their people much more.  How come they are getting it and you are
> not?  That's the question you need to ask.  You shouldn't be looking
> for protection from the marketplace, you should be looking for ways to
> excel in it.
> 
> >
> >  Come on, work with us.
> >
> I am, really!  I'm telling you to not look to others to solve your
> problem - it won't help.  Look at things Social Security and pension
> plans.  These systems put the burden on others - and they both have
> severe flaws which are hurting us now.
> 
> Look at what you can do to excel.  How are your sales efforts
> (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
> dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be embraced, not
> feared)?  Professional networking?  Who is your customer?  Are their
> pockets deep enough?  Are you really taking advantage of your
> expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at heart)?
>  How can you get the work done faster?  Can you invest in tools (store
> bought or that you create) to help?  Invest in services?  People?  Can
> you reuse code?  Are you tracking problems so that you don't make the
> same mistake again?
> 
> There are answers, but no one just pays more for your services "just 
because".
> 
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 20:53:29 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:53:29 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208393609.30576@coral.he.net>

The salary numbers on that site (46K for an accountant?? Secretaries 
make more than this) seem way low, and I was moreso referring to NYC 
salaries...if my numbers are way off, I do apologize...but I do feel 
that these professions are overall more lucrative to practitioners than 
IT is...

I love these discussions with you guys, I'm not intimidated in the 
least, as you can see, to be a minority in a "male" IT profession (or 
discussion board!)  :)!

> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Tom -- 
> >
> > The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney 
in 
> > business for themselves makes about the same. 
> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Corporate_Attorney/Salary
> >  The average CPA, about 
> > 150K.  
> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Accountant/Salary
> 
> -- 
> 
> T. Gales & Associates
> 'Helping People Connect with Technology'
> 
> http://www.tgaconnect.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From mailinglists at caseysoftware.com  Wed Apr 16 20:55:22 2008
From: mailinglists at caseysoftware.com (Keith Casey)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:55:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
References: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <fd219f0f0804161755w76ba3d99v1a129e210a7f0032@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Kristina Anderson
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
>  rates.  There is a reason I get 90% of the projects I bid on.  If I
>  asked for $100 an hour, that would be great, but $100 an hour for 0
>  hours is, well....zero dollars.

I used to get 85%+ of the projects I was pitching... and working 60+
hour weeks for those projects.  Then I talked with a few others and
found out that I was charging less then half than I should have been.
I steadily increased my rates over time and still get about 50-60% of
the projects that I pitch.  But the dollars work out even better than
before.

If you go too high, yes, you will win 0% of the projects... but this
is an optimization problem from Econ 101:

Qty Sold * Price = Revenue

kc

-- 
D. Keith Casey Jr.
CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
http://CaseySoftware.com


From andre at pitanga.org  Wed Apr 16 20:55:40 2008
From: andre at pitanga.org (Andre Pitanga)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:55:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net> <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4806A00C.1070308@pitanga.org>

Alright everybody...  since I started this insane thread, please allow 
me to close it.
I really didn't expect to awaken the whole internet hate machine...
I already regret all the electricity wasted.
-Andr?



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 21:00:07 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:00:07 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208394007.32608@coral.he.net>

Keith -- I see where you are going with this, I don't know much we want 
to go into rates on this public board ... but if I am underbilling I 
would like to know about it.

PS I think I dropped Econ 101 in Summer 1982 ...?  OOOPS!

(Taking initiative to solve my OWN problems!!) :)

> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Kristina Anderson
> <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> >  rates.  There is a reason I get 90% of the projects I bid on.  If I
> >  asked for $100 an hour, that would be great, but $100 an hour for 0
> >  hours is, well....zero dollars.
> 
> I used to get 85%+ of the projects I was pitching... and working 60+
> hour weeks for those projects.  Then I talked with a few others and
> found out that I was charging less then half than I should have been.
> I steadily increased my rates over time and still get about 50-60% of
> the projects that I pitch.  But the dollars work out even better than
> before.
> 
> If you go too high, yes, you will win 0% of the projects... but this
> is an optimization problem from Econ 101:
> 
> Qty Sold * Price = Revenue
> 
> kc
> 
> -- 
> D. Keith Casey Jr.
> CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
> http://CaseySoftware.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From tom at supertom.com  Wed Apr 16 21:01:12 2008
From: tom at supertom.com (Tom Melendez)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:01:12 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
References: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <117286890804161801q1d36fdban99078de438e0fc78@mail.gmail.com>

market is totally open for me to charge whatever
>  I want are well...interesting theory and pretty typical politics for a
>  certain segment of the IT industry...but.

Maybe the problem is you haven't met anyone on the other side.  I just
did a gig with a large consulting company and you would fall off your
chair if you know what they were paid for a one page (but very
interactive) site.  You have to ask yourself why they are getting it
and you are not.

And saying I "look to
>  others" to "solve my problems" is beyond a low blow, it's just too
>  stupid a remark to even rebut.

I didn't mean it as an insult, so if it came across that way, I
apologize.  But, you can't stand there and say that you are not making
what you are worth.  If you agreed to the price, then that's what it
is worth.  Prices rise for a reason: expenses, inflation.  Why aren't
your fees rising?  Because of others in the market?  Then how come
they can work for less?  I don't think it is jawflap - you really need
to ask these questions.  If your fees can't rise, what can you do to
earn more?

But, I do agree that this conversation has gone on a bit too long.
I'll stop now.

Tom


From mailinglists at caseysoftware.com  Wed Apr 16 21:03:19 2008
From: mailinglists at caseysoftware.com (Keith Casey)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:03:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208394007.32608@coral.he.net>
References: <1208394007.32608@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <fd219f0f0804161803p5e39f76aqabef4cfad31c574c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Kristina Anderson
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> Keith -- I see where you are going with this, I don't know much we want
>  to go into rates on this public board ... but if I am underbilling I
>  would like to know about it.

Not suggesting or describing rates, just stating the basic economics of it.  ;)

kc

-- 
D. Keith Casey Jr.
CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
http://CaseySoftware.com


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr 16 21:11:57 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:11:57 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>
References: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4806A3DD.20208@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Tom -- 
> 
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in 
> business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about 
> 150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than 
> we do.
> 
> The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self 
> employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty 
> constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K 
> barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> 
> And you don't feel this is an ISSUE?  You don't honestly feel that the 
> social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of 
> us are underpaid?
> 
> Come on, work with us.  
> 

Gee, as a QA specialist / lead I get not even the 80k. So why should a 
developer get that much money? Developers make software so that QA can test 
it. For that QA should get paid more than developers. And even more, support 
covers the butts of QA which covered the butts of the developers and yet 
support gets paid crap compared to even a QA guy. I think developers are 
already overvalued, but the same applies to doctors (although depends, the PCP 
that gets called in the middle of the night deserves good pay) and lawyers. I 
also think that the front desk person deserves the highest pay, same applies 
to administrative assistance. While the big wigs play golf these fine people 
keep a business running. I know that from first hand experience. I worked at a 
place where among others the receptionist got laid off. After a week all hell 
broke loose. No office supplies, the water company did not get paid (neither 
did the electric and gas companies, or anyone else), customers left hundreds 
of messages and ran over to the competition because nobody bothered to reroute 
the phone lines or shut off the email accounts. And I am sure that everything 
will work fine if all the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies get laid off. And 
some companies do that. When I started working at Henkel in Germany for the 
first time they had 27 layers of management. When I worked there the last time 
they were down to less than a dozen. Stuff got done the same as before, but 
without spending millions on chair farters.

But no matter who you ask, that person always makes not enough money. Ask 
A-Rod and I am sure that he would love to get paid even more. They are all 
whiners, just look at that multi-billionaire who lost big in that Bear Stearns 
deal. OK, he lost about a billion bucks, but he still has 4 billion left! Even 
he is whining and feels cheated.

Honestly, I would be the happiest person on earth if I could make anything 
close to 80k. I think that is plenty awesome money for a 9ish to 5ish job. I'd 
be happy with even 70k. Not to say that I am grossly underpaid at the moment. 
Pay is OK, feeds the family and secures a home and then a bit is even left. 
But with even more money, I guess we'd just spend it all and then what, 
complain again it is not enough. We are quite spoiled, there are many who have 
to get by on 30k and no benefits. How can one work full time and not even have 
decent health insurance? Now those are the folks that have a right to complain!

David


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 16 21:11:57 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:11:57 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208394717.3334@coral.he.net>

OK ! I should let this matter rest for a bit since I seem to be 
annoying some folks out there (yet another of my many talents).  But I 
want to thank you guys, you have given me some food for thought about 
matters very important to me!

- Kristina

> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Kristina Anderson
> <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> > Keith -- I see where you are going with this, I don't know much we 
want
> >  to go into rates on this public board ... but if I am underbilling 
I
> >  would like to know about it.
> 
> Not suggesting or describing rates, just stating the basic economics 
of it.  ;)
> 
> kc
> 
> -- 
> D. Keith Casey Jr.
> CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
> http://CaseySoftware.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From sequethin at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 21:18:08 2008
From: sequethin at gmail.com (Michael Hernandez)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:18:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Sun closing source of mysql?
Message-ID: <142BDA7A-4BC2-4645-BEEE-157230FBBF5C@gmail.com>

I just saw this on slashdot:

http://jcole.us/blog/archives/2008/04/14/just-announced-mysql-to-launch-new-features-only-in-mysql-enterprise/

Basically certain features will be in Mysql Enterprise only, and no  
longer available in the free open source version of the software. What  
the hell? This is not good at all...


--Mike H


From cmerlo at ncc.edu  Wed Apr 16 21:24:54 2008
From: cmerlo at ncc.edu (Christopher R. Merlo)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:24:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net> <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:02 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:

A university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field of choice
> with the goal to make them subject matter experts in that field.


That's actually not true, and your apparent belief in this untruth is
probably what has led to your seemingly very strongly felt distaste for
university education.

The purpose of a college or university is to provide the student with an
education, so that the student may go on to contribute back to society.  An
education involves more than just learning a trade, or a skill.  Moreover,
most experts in any field are usually well-versed in some other field as
well; this is what allows educated people to do things like draw analogies,
or relate to non-technical people.  Physicists must read the classics in
English literature so that non-physicists will talk to them at dinner
parties; this helps with things like professional networking.  (Everyone who
got your job because you know the right non-IT person, raise your hands.
David, look at all those hands!)  No one expects a physicist to be able to
prattle on about Huck Finn like a lit professor; but the physicist shouldn't
just stare open-mouthed, either.  "Yes, Mark Twain was an important figure
in American Literature" will go a long, long way in making friends and
influencing people.  And an English major should take a lab science course
for the exact same reason; in case he finds himself at a dinner party
populated mostly by physicists, knowing at least that there's an inverse
relationship between distance and gravitational pull, even if the English
major doesn't remember or understand that it's an exponential relationship,
can keep him in the conversation long enough to not be embarrassed.

When my programming students complain (and they always do) about how much of
their grade is based on writing, I tell them two things.  First, when I
worked in industry as a programmer, the pointy-haired bosses kept coming to
me for explanations, and eventually asked me to join large inter-department
teams to work on big special projects with all the suits, and eventually
would have asked me to lead those kinds of special projects had I stayed
with that company any longer; and the reason they kept tapping me, over my
colleagues, was that I was an effective communicator, and I was able to
translate plans to code, and feature requests to timetables, but also code
to English, and bug hunts to revised timetables; and I didn't scare the
suits away when I talked to them.  And I owe that to my liberal-arts
undergrad experience, taking a BA in CS, with a creative writing course and
a public speaking course and all the trimmings.  I even made use of
something I learned in a phys ed course, when I was tutoring a
seventh-grader in math last school year.  He really wanted to shoot baskets
more than do math problems, and so I gave him five minutes if he got a few
questions right.  Of course he got those questions right, and off we went to
shoot baskets.  But he had a great deal of trouble passing me the
basketball, and I taught him the bounce pass, the way I learned it as a
college junior.  His mom kept hiring me back to tutor him, because he really
liked me after that (and the grades slowly went up).

The other thing I tell my students is that out there in the real world,
where all you guys are, people judge other people's intelligence, fairly or
not, according to how effectively they communicate, and that the only two
things that make you a better writer are 1) writing a lot, and 2) reading a
lot.

So, anyway, I felt compelled to write, because I'm afraid that people trying
to choose whether to get a college education or not might be misled into
thinking it's something it's not.  The service we provide is not something
you can get anywhere else, and for lots of people, it's the difference
between promotions or not.
$0.02,
-c
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From ben at projectskyline.com  Wed Apr 16 21:49:30 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:49:30 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net> <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
	<946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4806ACAA.4080504@projectskyline.com>

Good call,

I love to read. Read all the time. Just read your email and I'm going to 
read a book.

- Ben

Christopher R. Merlo wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:02 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net 
> <mailto:ramons at gmx.net>> wrote:
>
>     A university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field
>     of choice with the goal to make them subject matter experts in
>     that field.
>
>
> That's actually not true, and your apparent belief in this untruth is 
> probably what has led to your seemingly very strongly felt distaste 
> for university education.
>
> The purpose of a college or university is to provide the student with 
> an education, so that the student may go on to contribute back to 
> society.  An education involves more than just learning a trade, or a 
> skill.  Moreover, most experts in any field are usually well-versed in 
> some other field as well; this is what allows educated people to do 
> things like draw analogies, or relate to non-technical people.  
> Physicists must read the classics in English literature so that 
> non-physicists will talk to them at dinner parties; this helps with 
> things like professional networking.  (Everyone who got your job 
> because you know the right non-IT person, raise your hands.  David, 
> look at all those hands!)  No one expects a physicist to be able to 
> prattle on about Huck Finn like a lit professor; but the physicist 
> shouldn't just stare open-mouthed, either.  "Yes, Mark Twain was an 
> important figure in American Literature" will go a long, long way in 
> making friends and influencing people.  And an English major should 
> take a lab science course for the exact same reason; in case he finds 
> himself at a dinner party populated mostly by physicists, knowing at 
> least that there's an inverse relationship between distance and 
> gravitational pull, even if the English major doesn't remember or 
> understand that it's an exponential relationship, can keep him in the 
> conversation long enough to not be embarrassed.
>
> When my programming students complain (and they always do) about how 
> much of their grade is based on writing, I tell them two things.  
> First, when I worked in industry as a programmer, the pointy-haired 
> bosses kept coming to me for explanations, and eventually asked me to 
> join large inter-department teams to work on big special projects with 
> all the suits, and eventually would have asked me to lead those kinds 
> of special projects had I stayed with that company any longer; and the 
> reason they kept tapping me, over my colleagues, was that I was an 
> effective communicator, and I was able to translate plans to code, and 
> feature requests to timetables, but also code to English, and bug 
> hunts to revised timetables; and I didn't scare the suits away when I 
> talked to them.  And I owe that to my liberal-arts undergrad 
> experience, taking a BA in CS, with a creative writing course and a 
> public speaking course and all the trimmings.  I even made use of 
> something I learned in a phys ed course, when I was tutoring a 
> seventh-grader in math last school year.  He really wanted to shoot 
> baskets more than do math problems, and so I gave him five minutes if 
> he got a few questions right.  Of course he got those questions right, 
> and off we went to shoot baskets.  But he had a great deal of trouble 
> passing me the basketball, and I taught him the bounce pass, the way I 
> learned it as a college junior.  His mom kept hiring me back to tutor 
> him, because he really liked me after that (and the grades slowly went 
> up).
>
> The other thing I tell my students is that out there in the real 
> world, where all you guys are, people judge other people's 
> intelligence, fairly or not, according to how effectively they 
> communicate, and that the only two things that make you a better 
> writer are 1) writing a lot, and 2) reading a lot.
>
> So, anyway, I felt compelled to write, because I'm afraid that people 
> trying to choose whether to get a college education or not might be 
> misled into thinking it's something it's not.  The service we provide 
> is not something you can get anywhere else, and for lots of people, 
> it's the difference between promotions or not.
> $0.02,
> -c
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php


From corey at bmfenterprises.com  Wed Apr 16 22:23:35 2008
From: corey at bmfenterprises.com (Corey Fogarty)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:23:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Serial communication in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <C42C2CE7.59796%corey@bmfenterprises.com>

Hi All,

I am trying to connect to /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 which is a Keyspan USB to
Serial adapter. I have had success using the screen utility, #screen
/dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 but I would like to use PHP to create a web interface
to a microcontroller.

I have attempted fopen with no luck:

> $port = "/dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1";
> 
> $p = fopen($port, 'r+');
> $read = fread($p, filesize($port));
> fclose($p);
> 
> echo $read;
> 
> $p = fopen($port, 'r+');
> fwrite($p, "A");
> fclose($p);

I have tried SerProxy but cannot get a connection through telnet. I have
also tried LibSerial but could only find version 0.5.2 which does not yet
support PHP apparently... I have read about IOKit but I am not sure it will
get me where I want to be.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

Corey

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From ben at projectskyline.com  Wed Apr 16 22:34:06 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:34:06 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Serial communication in Mac OS X
In-Reply-To: <C42C2CE7.59796%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
References: <C42C2CE7.59796%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
Message-ID: <4806B71E.1060605@projectskyline.com>

Hello Corey,

This doesn't really answer your question, but I've recently been doing 
java serial work on osx for some robotics stuff.
Take a look at http://rxtx.qbang.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Sorry I dont have more specific php info.

- Ben

Corey Fogarty wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am trying to connect to /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 which is a Keyspan USB 
> to Serial adapter. I have had success using the screen utility, 
> #screen /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 but I would like to use PHP to create a 
> web interface to a microcontroller.
>
> I have attempted fopen with no luck:
>
>     $port = "/dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1";
>
>     $p = fopen($port, 'r+');
>     $read = fread($p, filesize($port));
>     fclose($p);
>
>     echo $read;
>
>     $p = fopen($port, 'r+');
>     fwrite($p, "A");
>     fclose($p);
>
>
> I have tried SerProxy but cannot get a connection through telnet. I 
> have also tried LibSerial but could only find version 0.5.2 which does 
> not yet support PHP apparently... I have read about IOKit but I am not 
> sure it will get me where I want to be.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Corey
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr 16 23:43:17 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:43:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net> <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
	<946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4806C755.4050009@gmx.net>

Christopher R. Merlo wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:02 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net 
> <mailto:ramons at gmx.net>> wrote:
> 
>     A university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field
>     of choice with the goal to make them subject matter experts in that
>     field.
> 
> 
> That's actually not true, and your apparent belief in this untruth is 
> probably what has led to your seemingly very strongly felt distaste for 
> university education.

Huh? I got two university degrees and did so voluntarily. So what you say is 
clearly not the case. My point is that someone who for example takes a BSEE 
program at Alfred State College is required to have 132 credits for 
graduation. From those 132 credits 60 credit hours are for liberal arts 
classes and other sciences that are non-major. Not all of those may be totally 
off topic, but I don't get why a BSEE student has to take american history 
again or take an arts course (or even more than just one). The 13 years K-12 
ought to have covered that. I also think that a high school graduate should be 
capable of properly expressing thoughts in speech and writing and not needing 
yet another round of English courses. I got my BSEE degree at a non-US 
university in a seven semester program with a total of 154 credits and as 
mentioned before only 3 courses were not that much related to engineering.

> The purpose of a college or university is to provide the student with an 
> education, so that the student may go on to contribute back to society.  

Ah, c'mon! Reading books to children or planting trees or donating blood or 
driving people to their doctor's appointments - that is giving back to 
society. Getting a university degree is for the sake of getting a better job 
with better pay and ideally get some more exposure to a subject that one 
likes. How does getting a degree in finance and becoming a greedy investment 
banker give back to society? I can see getting a degree in social work being 
something that gives back to society. Or do you mean that graduates get better 
paying jobs and thus pay more taxes and that helps funding government programs?


I agree with the rest that you wrote and I don't think it collides with what I 
wrote earlier. My point is that compared to other countries US universities 
focus way too much on a broad education rather than on transferring 
specialized skills and knowledge of a specific subject. And I think that is 
why foreign workers especially in IT have an advantage. I'm not saying that an 
extra writing course is useless or that art history is utterly unimportant, 
but I think that is something that shouldn't be part of a university program.

David


From cmerlo at ncc.edu  Thu Apr 17 00:17:19 2008
From: cmerlo at ncc.edu (Christopher R. Merlo)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 00:17:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4806C755.4050009@gmx.net>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net> <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
	<946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4806C755.4050009@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <946586480804162117i296481ev650c76fb77756be7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:43 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:

Huh? I got two university degrees and did so voluntarily. So what you say is
> clearly not the case. My point is that someone who for example takes a BSEE
> program at Alfred State College is required to have 132 credits for
> graduation. From those 132 credits 60 credit hours are for liberal arts
> classes and other sciences that are non-major. Not all of those may be
> totally off topic, but I don't get why a BSEE student has to take american
> history again or take an arts course (or even more than just one).


The reason is that Alfred State, like most colleges and universities, has a
mission to create not just workers, but educated men and women.


> I also think that a high school graduate should be capable of properly
> expressing thoughts in speech and writing and not needing yet another round
> of English courses.


Oh, if only.  Buy me a beer some day, and I will regale you with horror
stories from my closing-in-on-eight years in the trenches.  (Bear in mind
that I work at a community college with open enrollment.)  By far our most
popular courses are remedial math, remedial English (composition), and
remedial reading.  Just last night I taught college-age students how to
solve proportions.  And some of them still don't get it.

(Of course, if there is a silver lining to all this, it's that with CS and
IT enrollment in the toilet, thank Ged for so many remedial sections -- it's
why I still have a job.)


> Ah, c'mon! Reading books to children or planting trees or donating blood
> or driving people to their doctor's appointments - that is giving back to
> society. Getting a university degree is for the sake of getting a better job
> with better pay and ideally get some more exposure to a subject that one
> likes.


That may have been your reason for going to college, but it wasn't mine.
The university system is set up to be self-sufficient; that is, for every i
job-seeking career-advancing students, there are j students who intend,
formally or otherwise, to share their knowledge with the community -- as
professional (there's that word again!) educators, or as employers who hire
interns, or as other professionals who also blog (like Chris S.), etc.  Of
course there is overlap -- no one is expected to take John Lennon's lyrics
literally -- but there are lots of people who go to college for the
education they will receive, and the education they will pass on.


> How does getting a degree in finance and becoming a greedy investment
> banker give back to society? I can see getting a degree in social work being
> something that gives back to society. Or do you mean that graduates get
> better paying jobs and thus pay more taxes and that helps funding government
> programs?


There is that, if you want to look at it cynically.  But that investment
banker will probably pass on some knowledge to his or her underlings,
helping them to become better greedy investment bankers, etc.  People who
work necessarily promote the society in which they work -- that's why
someone gives them money for it.


> [...] US universities focus way too much on a broad education


It's "way too much" in your estimation only.  Most people who are part of
the system -- as students, faculty, or administration -- either consider it
just the right amount, or they quit.  But it's a system that's been working
for 200+ years.


> And I think that is why foreign workers especially in IT have an
> advantage.


And I think it goes back to the preparation angle.  Other countries place a
far higher emphasis on early education, and so therefore children are more
comfortable with math and science, and less likely to be called nerds and
geeks for it.  And, by the way, based on my totally unscientific,
insufficient, and now-cloudy observations from my days in industry, foreign
IT workers often have a far tougher time moving up the corporate ladder, and
potentially for the same reason that some Americans might -- an inability to
communicate effectively gets them labeled as "dumb" or "lazy", etc., by the
people whose opinions matter, when in fact, they might just be incredibly
smart and talented products of a technical school rather than a liberal arts
school.


> I'm not saying that an extra writing course is useless or that art history
> is utterly unimportant, but I think that is something that shouldn't be part
> of a university program.


(This is going to sound like I made it up just to argue the point, but I
swear it's true.)  I am refreshing my New York State EMT certification this
spring, and one of the instructors is a guy who was in my Art History class
in undergrad.  If I had the time and inclination, I could probably get a few
bucks out of him by offering to cut him a deal redesigning his employers'
web site.  If there are no other reasons, there's one for keeping Art
History in the Engineering program.  :)
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From brian at realm3.com  Thu Apr 17 07:31:34 2008
From: brian at realm3.com (Brian D.)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:31:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
References: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <c7c53eda0804170431j24c3fac5h8d1557cc8d1efebe@mail.gmail.com>

"I want to be a programmer.  I just want to get paid what my skills
are WORTH as a programmer."

As a hobby economist I have to respond to this one. :D

It sounds to me like you'd like to legislate what you're worth. That
approach causes even more problems than it solves because it means a
lot of people who could be employed at lower rates will now be
unemployable, period. We are all worth what the market says we're
worth. If demand for talented developers is high, and supply is low
(as I've seen here in NYC) then you'll be paid handsomely. If demand
is low, and supply is high, then you'll be paid very little.

If you believe you are worth more than you're currently getting - than
quit! Find another job that pays you what you're looking for. I know
from experience that there are 100k+ jobs out there for *good* PHP
developers (granted, it's my personal belief that it takes a little
more than just developer skills to hit that mark, but they *are* out
there).

Dictating by government fiat what a "programmer" should make only
exacerbates the problem by leaving all those sub-par developers out in
the cold - completely unemployable in their industry. With that
prospect, average developers will never even have the chance to become
above-average.

- Brian D.


On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Kristina Anderson
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> Tom, like a lot of the folks on this list, I'm a PHP programmer
>  developing internet applications (coding forms, building MySQL
>  databases, meeting with clients to determine requirements, etc. etc.).
>  I've been doing this (in different languages and platforms) for 10
>  years and in PHP for the past 2 years (and love PHP!).  I do this for a
>  living because I like doing it, I'd probably be better off in
>  retirement if I went to law school in the near future but I don't want
>  to do this.  I want to be a programmer.  I just want to get paid what
>  my skills are WORTH as a programmer.
>
>  I'd love to charge my clients more.  And I've recently gotten wise to
>  opportunities where clients are able to offer me part ownership of
>  startups in addition to hourly consulting rates.  But...I do think that
>  clients price things out and give bids to people who charge reasonable
>  rates.  There is a reason I get 90% of the projects I bid on.  If I
>  asked for $100 an hour, that would be great, but $100 an hour for 0
>  hours is, well....zero dollars.
>
>  As a self employed person I'd love to hear any real, usable suggestions
>  on how to increase income.  My network is great and I have tons of
>  projects going, business is growing every day as I meet new
>  people...but the market does price at a certain level and if I start
>  asking for more than people can afford, or more than others with my
>  same skills are getting paid...I am not going to get hired.
>
>  Your libertarian jawflap about how Social Security is  "hurting us" (I
>  disagree) and how the market is totally open for me to charge whatever
>  I want are well...interesting theory and pretty typical politics for a
>  certain segment of the IT industry...but.  And saying I "look to
>  others" to "solve my problems" is beyond a low blow, it's just too
>  stupid a remark to even rebut.
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  Kristina
>
>
>  > Hi Kristina,
>  >
>  > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Kristina Anderson
>
> > <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
>  > > Tom --
>  > >
>  > >  The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney
>  in
>  > >  business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA,
>  about
>
>
> > >  150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more
>  than
>  > >  we do.
>  >
>  > I have what I consider to be more than average experience with
>  > electricians and they are nice folks, but hardly what I'd call on the
>  > top of the "social status" scale and I would question what the average
>  > salary was, but I doubt your numbers.
>  >
>  > Really, I doubt your "average".  But it doesn't matter.  You make what
>  > you do because that is what you are willing to work for.  Suppose the
>  > floor fell out of IT tomorrow (literally), and the going rate for PHP
>  > was $10 per hour.  Would you still do it?  Maybe for fun, but not as a
>  > job.  Why?  Because you won't work for that little.  You couldn't
>  > survive.  But you can survive on $80K (or whatever), so you do it.
>  > When you decide that $80K isn't enough, you'll stop working for that
>  > much.
>  >
>  > >
>  > >  The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self
>  > >  employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty
>  > >  constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K
>  > >  barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
>  >
>  > Look at your market.  The "big" consulting firms charge much more and
>  > pay their people much more.  How come they are getting it and you are
>  > not?  That's the question you need to ask.  You shouldn't be looking
>  > for protection from the marketplace, you should be looking for ways to
>  > excel in it.
>  >
>  > >
>  > >  Come on, work with us.
>  > >
>  > I am, really!  I'm telling you to not look to others to solve your
>  > problem - it won't help.  Look at things Social Security and pension
>  > plans.  These systems put the burden on others - and they both have
>  > severe flaws which are hurting us now.
>  >
>  > Look at what you can do to excel.  How are your sales efforts
>  > (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
>  > dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be embraced, not
>  > feared)?  Professional networking?  Who is your customer?  Are their
>  > pockets deep enough?  Are you really taking advantage of your
>  > expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at heart)?
>  >  How can you get the work done faster?  Can you invest in tools (store
>  > bought or that you create) to help?  Invest in services?  People?  Can
>  > you reuse code?  Are you tracking problems so that you don't make the
>  > same mistake again?
>  >
>  > There are answers, but no one just pays more for your services "just
>  because".
>  >
>  > Tom
>  > _______________________________________________
>
>
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  >
>  > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  > http://www.nyphpcon.com
>  >
>  > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>  >
>  >
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
freelance consulting, application development
(917) 512-3594


From JasonS at innovationads.com  Thu Apr 17 07:37:07 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:37:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4806A3DD.20208@gmx.net>
References: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net> <4806A3DD.20208@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0DB8@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

Ok, so with all this talk, and everyone wanting to make some money, why can't I get a decent resume across my desk?!

I am offering - imo - perhaps the best and most challenging work environment I've seen since I got to NY, and the only people who are handing me decent resumes are recruiters who are looking to earn 20 pct of YOUR salaries...

If any of you are the real deal - from QA to dev or anywhere in between - please, please give me a call or shoot me an email offline? 

And if you're not interested, then please stop asking the world why you can't seem to make a decent living - right here, right now, I can state matter of fact that I can offer that tomorrow to one or two of you, no problem, as long - as Tom says - you, youself, are truly worth it.

And believe it or not, assuming I'm not alone in this, hiring managers are possibly more frustrated than you all are! There are a lot more true employment opporunities out there than there are truly talented programmers to fill them!

Digest that :-)

Good debate, though, overall...I'm enjoying the read

Jason Scott |?Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor,?New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext?226?|?Fax: 866-797-0971
???????? innovationads.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of David Krings
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:12 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Tom -- 
> 
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in 
> business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about 
> 150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than 
> we do.
> 
> The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self 
> employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty 
> constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K 
> barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> 
> And you don't feel this is an ISSUE?  You don't honestly feel that the 
> social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of 
> us are underpaid?
> 
> Come on, work with us.  
> 

Gee, as a QA specialist / lead I get not even the 80k. So why should a 
developer get that much money? Developers make software so that QA can test 
it. For that QA should get paid more than developers. And even more, support 
covers the butts of QA which covered the butts of the developers and yet 
support gets paid crap compared to even a QA guy. I think developers are 
already overvalued, but the same applies to doctors (although depends, the PCP 
that gets called in the middle of the night deserves good pay) and lawyers. I 
also think that the front desk person deserves the highest pay, same applies 
to administrative assistance. While the big wigs play golf these fine people 
keep a business running. I know that from first hand experience. I worked at a 
place where among others the receptionist got laid off. After a week all hell 
broke loose. No office supplies, the water company did not get paid (neither 
did the electric and gas companies, or anyone else), customers left hundreds 
of messages and ran over to the competition because nobody bothered to reroute 
the phone lines or shut off the email accounts. And I am sure that everything 
will work fine if all the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies get laid off. And 
some companies do that. When I started working at Henkel in Germany for the 
first time they had 27 layers of management. When I worked there the last time 
they were down to less than a dozen. Stuff got done the same as before, but 
without spending millions on chair farters.

But no matter who you ask, that person always makes not enough money. Ask 
A-Rod and I am sure that he would love to get paid even more. They are all 
whiners, just look at that multi-billionaire who lost big in that Bear Stearns 
deal. OK, he lost about a billion bucks, but he still has 4 billion left! Even 
he is whining and feels cheated.

Honestly, I would be the happiest person on earth if I could make anything 
close to 80k. I think that is plenty awesome money for a 9ish to 5ish job. I'd 
be happy with even 70k. Not to say that I am grossly underpaid at the moment. 
Pay is OK, feeds the family and secures a home and then a bit is even left. 
But with even more money, I guess we'd just spend it all and then what, 
complain again it is not enough. We are quite spoiled, there are many who have 
to get by on 30k and no benefits. How can one work full time and not even have 
decent health insurance? Now those are the folks that have a right to complain!

David
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1379 - Release Date: 4/15/2008 6:10 PM
 

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Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008 5:34 PM
 


From JasonS at innovationads.com  Thu Apr 17 07:37:36 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:37:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4806A3DD.20208@gmx.net>
References: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net> <4806A3DD.20208@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0DB9@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

And Jake McGraw, we've never met, but IA is not the same company you worked at in the past. Please know that.

Better yet, why don't you come on by and see for youself? :-) I'd love to finally meet you in person, and ask you a few questions about why the heck certain things are the way they are :-)

Say when, and maybe we'll do lunch and talk.

Jason Scott |?Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor,?New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext?226?|?Fax: 866-797-0971
???????? innovationads.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of David Krings
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:12 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Tom -- 
> 
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in 
> business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about 
> 150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than 
> we do.
> 
> The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self 
> employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty 
> constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K 
> barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> 
> And you don't feel this is an ISSUE?  You don't honestly feel that the 
> social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of 
> us are underpaid?
> 
> Come on, work with us.  
> 

Gee, as a QA specialist / lead I get not even the 80k. So why should a 
developer get that much money? Developers make software so that QA can test 
it. For that QA should get paid more than developers. And even more, support 
covers the butts of QA which covered the butts of the developers and yet 
support gets paid crap compared to even a QA guy. I think developers are 
already overvalued, but the same applies to doctors (although depends, the PCP 
that gets called in the middle of the night deserves good pay) and lawyers. I 
also think that the front desk person deserves the highest pay, same applies 
to administrative assistance. While the big wigs play golf these fine people 
keep a business running. I know that from first hand experience. I worked at a 
place where among others the receptionist got laid off. After a week all hell 
broke loose. No office supplies, the water company did not get paid (neither 
did the electric and gas companies, or anyone else), customers left hundreds 
of messages and ran over to the competition because nobody bothered to reroute 
the phone lines or shut off the email accounts. And I am sure that everything 
will work fine if all the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies get laid off. And 
some companies do that. When I started working at Henkel in Germany for the 
first time they had 27 layers of management. When I worked there the last time 
they were down to less than a dozen. Stuff got done the same as before, but 
without spending millions on chair farters.

But no matter who you ask, that person always makes not enough money. Ask 
A-Rod and I am sure that he would love to get paid even more. They are all 
whiners, just look at that multi-billionaire who lost big in that Bear Stearns 
deal. OK, he lost about a billion bucks, but he still has 4 billion left! Even 
he is whining and feels cheated.

Honestly, I would be the happiest person on earth if I could make anything 
close to 80k. I think that is plenty awesome money for a 9ish to 5ish job. I'd 
be happy with even 70k. Not to say that I am grossly underpaid at the moment. 
Pay is OK, feeds the family and secures a home and then a bit is even left. 
But with even more money, I guess we'd just spend it all and then what, 
complain again it is not enough. We are quite spoiled, there are many who have 
to get by on 30k and no benefits. How can one work full time and not even have 
decent health insurance? Now those are the folks that have a right to complain!

David
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1379 - Release Date: 4/15/2008 6:10 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008 5:34 PM
 


From urb at e-government.com  Thu Apr 17 08:01:51 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:01:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <946586480804162117i296481ev650c76fb77756be7@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net> <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
	<946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4806C755.4050009@gmx.net>
	<946586480804162117i296481ev650c76fb77756be7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417080018.02efcb38@e-government.com>


>[...] US universities focus way too much on a broad education

         You have missed the point. You went to college to get a 
degree, not an education.

         Search Google for "What is an educated person"


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
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From ps at sun-code.com  Thu Apr 17 08:08:04 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:08:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <4806C755.4050009@gmx.net>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net>
	<48066979.2050907@gmx.net><946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4806C755.4050009@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <000001c8a083$b136aed0$13a40c70$@com>

Think of the quickly growing popularity of tags on the internet which
show graphically the (expected and often unexpected) relationships
between ideas and concepts in the results of a topic search. 

Or think of the movie Cube (also Cube 2, Cube 3) which is essentially
about some mathematical construct that shows that when you are
positioned inside a cube that theoretically all six of the inside walls
of your cube are simultaneously acting as the outside wall of a whole
set of cubes that are all pressed against each of the walls of your
cube. And all those cubes have more cubes pressing against their walls.
Creating this infinite expanse of cubes that are all interlocked by the
touching cube walls.

I forget even the theoretical purpose of this infinite cube construct or
why scientists have devised it, but it does seem to vividly show how
everything is connected rather infinitely and complexly. And that nature
is infinitely complex and interrelated at all levels from micro to the
massively macro scale of super complex galaxy groups that are bonded by
gravitational pull. 

Bear in mind there is a known psychological profile that shows that some
people really don't want maximum success, that they purposefully
self-sabotage their maximum career success because they have deep
personal feelings that are at odds with their ambitions. Commonly, as it
turns out, on a deeply personal level many people really just don't like
the constant responsibility associated with maximum career success.  Or,
of course, many people have serious issues with money: they feel it is
dirty, not a noble objective, very material and that the desire to gain
heaps of money is a bad reflection on their otherwise more pure personal
ethic. And if money was a bitter family contention when one was a child,
those bittersweet memories may make many like kryptonite in your hands. 

The net net of this note is that this webmaster test discussion quickly
uncovered how everything that is going on in one's life is all
intertwined: business choices and paths, education history, friendship
model, the feng shui of your home and neighborhood, even your health
issues and how you eat, how you decide to express and present yourself,
even how you deal with your sleeping dreams: all these matters are
interrelated and affecting the moment by moment outcome of everything in
your life. (Did you know it has been shown that people who sleep next to
each other affect the content each other's dreams, even causing each
other's dreaming to start and stop in harmony.)

One may need to look into many aspects of their life to find where is
the crux of the current obstacle/problem/issue(s) at hand: is the
stumbling block here in the task that is before me or over there where I
never eat right at breakfast and then I cannot concentrate. Or eating
too little for extended periods makes me somewhat grouchy and sharp
tongued causing me to appear flinty with coworkers when not intended. Or
is a toothache I don't correct distracting me at all times... 

The webmaster test thread shows clearly how everything (seems like
everything) is interrelated and you cannot discuss or look for the
answer to an issue within a single sphere of life/business. Look a layer
up or down, look a strata to the left. It is all a sliding scale of
grays, even what appears black and white is just real dark and very
light gray.

Peter  

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of David Krings
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:43 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test

Christopher R. Merlo wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:02 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net 
> <mailto:ramons at gmx.net>> wrote:
> 
>     A university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field
>     of choice with the goal to make them subject matter experts in
that
>     field.
> 
> 
> That's actually not true, and your apparent belief in this untruth is 
> probably what has led to your seemingly very strongly felt distaste
for 
> university education.

Huh? I got two university degrees and did so voluntarily. So what you
say is 
clearly not the case. My point is that someone who for example takes a
BSEE 
program at Alfred State College is required to have 132 credits for 
graduation. From those 132 credits 60 credit hours are for liberal arts 
classes and other sciences that are non-major. Not all of those may be
totally 
off topic, but I don't get why a BSEE student has to take american
history 
again or take an arts course (or even more than just one). The 13 years
K-12 
ought to have covered that. I also think that a high school graduate
should be 
capable of properly expressing thoughts in speech and writing and not
needing 
yet another round of English courses. I got my BSEE degree at a non-US 
university in a seven semester program with a total of 154 credits and
as 
mentioned before only 3 courses were not that much related to
engineering.

> The purpose of a college or university is to provide the student with
an 
> education, so that the student may go on to contribute back to
society.  

Ah, c'mon! Reading books to children or planting trees or donating blood
or 
driving people to their doctor's appointments - that is giving back to 
society. Getting a university degree is for the sake of getting a better
job 
with better pay and ideally get some more exposure to a subject that one

likes. How does getting a degree in finance and becoming a greedy
investment 
banker give back to society? I can see getting a degree in social work
being 
something that gives back to society. Or do you mean that graduates get
better 
paying jobs and thus pay more taxes and that helps funding government
programs?


I agree with the rest that you wrote and I don't think it collides with
what I 
wrote earlier. My point is that compared to other countries US
universities 
focus way too much on a broad education rather than on transferring 
specialized skills and knowledge of a specific subject. And I think that
is 
why foreign workers especially in IT have an advantage. I'm not saying
that an 
extra writing course is useless or that art history is utterly
unimportant, 
but I think that is something that shouldn't be part of a university
program.

David
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From urb at e-government.com  Thu Apr 17 08:17:00 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:17:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <117286890804161801q1d36fdban99078de438e0fc78@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
	<117286890804161801q1d36fdban99078de438e0fc78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417081517.02b59f60@e-government.com>


>chair if you know what they were paid for a one page (but very
>interactive) site.  You have to ask yourself why they are getting it
>and you are not.

         Basic economics. The output of a "big company" is more desirable,
for a variety of reasons, that the output of an independent contractor. In
addition that have a substantially more effective marketing effort than you
do.


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From chsnyder at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 09:11:05 2008
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:11:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417081517.02b59f60@e-government.com>
References: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
	<117286890804161801q1d36fdban99078de438e0fc78@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417081517.02b59f60@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690804170611o46ece632rd258d961e3c788ab@mail.gmail.com>

This is a tough industry.

You are writing software for an openly hostile environment (the
internet), using a grab-bag of hashed-up "standards", that has to look
good and work right on at least 3 different platforms (MSIE, Gecko,
and WebKit).

On top of all that, unless you work as a cog in the wheels of a big
firm, you also have to have the interpersonal and business skills to
pitch jobs and collect money from clients.

No sane engineer would actually choose to be a web developer.

Just sayin.


From SyAD at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 09:13:55 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:13:55 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <c0e.2bd982aa.3538a713@aol.com>

 
David, I'm shocked that a CS MS would require anything outside of the field, 
that seems very odd to me.  Maybe things have changed since the *cough, cough* 
years since I got my Bachelor's, but even when I was getting my Bachelor's 
(Mechanics and Materials Science, essentially Mechanical Engineering, from 
Hopkins), the non-major requirements (credits for liberal arts, natural science, 
etc) were down around 20 credits or less, and if you were clever, you could find 
courses that were useful.  The liberal arts requirement as I remember 
consisted of one year-long course -- I took Russian for that.
 
On the other hand, in-major course requirements weren't that onerous either, 
so I could take Electrical Engineering, Economics and Math Sciences 
(Optimization, Stats) to, in a sense, design my own major.  It's funny, even though I've 
been doing analysis/design/programming for all these years, I took very 
little CS.
 
Steve
 
In a message dated 4/16/2008 5:03:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ramons at gmx.net 
writes:

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> You have a valid point about the state certs...which could be 
> problematic...however, I do take exception with your characterization 
> of liberal arts courses and degrees as "garbage"...as a non-CS major 
> who is now in the field and also as someone who believes STRONGLY in 
> the "non-vocational, liberal arts model of post-secondary education" 
> (i.e. the university is NOT a vocational school).

Well, I've looked at programs from state universities for mainly science and 
engineering programs and depending on the university between 1/3rd and 2/3rd 
of the courses required have nothing to do with the major. My point is that 
after 12 years of public schooling a student shouldn't need yet another 
English or history course when studying biology or civil engineering.
I did not state that liberal art degrees are garbage, but the same would 
apply 
to those when an English major is forced to take an introductory physics 
course unless it is for the sake of studying the language used in science.I 
just don't think it is applicable to give someone a BSEE degree when the 
majority of courses attended had nothing to do with electrical engineering. 
That absolutely devalues the BS degree, but I squarely blame the universities 
for that.
See, I consider a university not to be a continuation of high school. A 
university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field of choice 
with the goal to make them subject matter experts in that field. This is how 
many other university systems in the world understand "higher education". One 
reason why foreign specialists are so attractive to US businesses...and the 
fact that under H1B via the employees are tied to the company and can be made 
to do the same job for less money.
I think the liberal arts model is purely used for the reason that most high 
school graduates are not ready for university studies. As a student I want to 
become an expert in the field and not have to learn about the geography of 
the 
former soviet union or learn polish to cover the foreign language requirement 
(this is what my wife took while getting her BS degree).

Just to make this clear, I did not evaluate and test study at all US 
universities, but I did look at the bachelor programs offered by several 
state 
univerties in the northeast. I eventually got my MS degree at CCSU and 
compared to the courses I had to attend at the University of Applied Sciences 
in D?sseldorf, Germany that MS level courses were a joke (except for 
Production Management). See, as a young person who goes into deep debt to 
finance a university education I'd want to get some kick ass training and not 
a bunch of fluff courses that make me redo what was covered in high school 
already. Why spend 1,000$ a course to take Art History 101 and Power Walking 
058 when going for a CS degree? I admit that there are courses that are not 
on-subject, but still very important, such as ethics (ask yourself if it is 
really OK to build the next nuclear bomb or the next 800hp, 8 ton version of 
a 
Hummer), human relations in organizations (be creative and do something else 
other than fire people), and maybe even basic business accounting. And if it 
is has to be a hisry course, provide one that applies to the major. I rather 
have a CS graduate who knows who invented the first applied programming 
language rather than one who knows all about President Hoover (no, he did not 
invent the vacuum cleaner). Maybe with better trained university graduates 
the 
need for certifications would be a moot point.

Also, I am in no way intent to ridicule BS/BA degree holders or suggest that 
they didn't work hard for their degree. I just think that especially CS 
graduates should rather read Complaint Management by Stauss & Seidel rather 
than Huckleberry Finn for the third time.

David

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From consult at covenantedesign.com  Thu Apr 17 09:13:37 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:13:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208393609.30576@coral.he.net>
References: <1208393609.30576@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <48074D01.5040705@covenantedesign.com>

Let's be intellectually honest Kristina,

It's hard to take your emails with a dose of sincerity, when your 
scholarship seems random and a result of passion. Phrases like 
"Secretaries make more than this" and posting what you "feel" is the 
average income for a particular profession (without citation or 
reference), leads the reader to thinking you're angry or whiny.

If however you are sincere, I do think that there is a particular 
paragraph in Tom's reply that should be of interest:

-TOM MELENDEZ -
 >Look at what you can do to excel. How are your sales efforts
>  (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
>  dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be embraced, not
>  feared)? Professional networking? Who is your customer? Are their
>  pockets deep enough? Are you really taking advantage of your
>  expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at heart)?
>  How can you get the work done faster? Can you invest in tools (store
>  bought or that you create) to help? Invest in services? People? Can
>  you reuse code? Are you tracking problems so that you don't make the
>  same mistake again?

This paragraph reminds me of a book my friend recommended some time ago, entitled, "What color is your parachute?". The whole concept is not looking to an outside change, when sculpting your small business growth, but looking at your inner development and maturation. And in so doing, specific areas of personal growth will be obviously and easily leveraged to grow your small business substantially. Then, hopefully, it becomes a beautiful cycle of inner growth -> application -> business growth -> inner growth





Kristina Anderson wrote:
> The salary numbers on that site (46K for an accountant?? Secretaries 
> make more than this) seem way low, and I was moreso referring to NYC 
> salaries...if my numbers are way off, I do apologize...but I do feel 
> that these professions are overall more lucrative to practitioners than 
> IT is...
>
> I love these discussions with you guys, I'm not intimidated in the 
> least, as you can see, to be a minority in a "male" IT profession (or 
> discussion board!)  :)!
>
>   
>> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>     
>>> Tom -- 
>>>
>>> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney 
>>>       
> in 
>   
>>> business for themselves makes about the same. 
>>>       
>> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Corporate_Attorney/Salary
>>     
>>>  The average CPA, about 
>>> 150K.  
>>>       
>> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Accountant/Salary
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> T. Gales & Associates
>> 'Helping People Connect with Technology'
>>
>> http://www.tgaconnect.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>   



From SyAD at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 09:17:15 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:17:15 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <c92.2724848e.3538a7db@aol.com>

 
Good point Keith (BTW, hi - I met you at DCPHP BS last month) -- if you're 
over 40 hours/week, then it's time to increase the rate incrementally on the 
next few bids.
 
But if you're under 40hrs/week (or whatever hours you seek), then you may 
have to reduce the rate.  Supply and demand.
 
Steve
 
In a message dated 4/16/2008 8:56:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mailinglists at caseysoftware.com writes:

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Kristina Anderson
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
>  rates.  There is a reason I get 90% of the projects I bid on.  If I
>  asked for $100 an hour, that would be great, but $100 an hour for 0
>  hours is, well....zero dollars.

I used to get 85%+ of the projects I was pitching... and working 60+
hour weeks for those projects.  Then I talked with a few others and
found out that I was charging less then half than I should have been.
I steadily increased my rates over time and still get about 50-60% of
the projects that I pitch.  But the dollars work out even better than
before.

If you go too high, yes, you will win 0% of the projects... but this
is an optimization problem from Econ 101:

Qty Sold * Price = Revenue

kc

-- 
D. Keith Casey Jr.
CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
http://CaseySoftware.com
_______________________________________________
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http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php





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From SyAD at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 09:18:16 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:18:16 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com>

 
This may have been mentioned already, but maybe the best people out there are 
independent?
 
Steve
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 7:38:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JasonS at innovationads.com writes:

Ok, so with all this talk, and everyone wanting to make some money, why can't 
I get a decent resume across my desk?!

I am offering - imo - perhaps the best and most challenging work environment 
I've seen since I got to NY, and the only people who are handing me decent 
resumes are recruiters who are looking to earn 20 pct of YOUR salaries...

If any of you are the real deal - from QA to dev or anywhere in between - 
please, please give me a call or shoot me an email offline? 

And if you're not interested, then please stop asking the world why you can't 
seem to make a decent living - right here, right now, I can state matter of 
fact that I can offer that tomorrow to one or two of you, no problem, as long - 
as Tom says - you, youself, are truly worth it.

And believe it or not, assuming I'm not alone in this, hiring managers are 
possibly more frustrated than you all are! There are a lot more true employment 
opporunities out there than there are truly talented programmers to fill them!

Digest that :-)

Good debate, though, overall...I'm enjoying the read

Jason Scott | Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor, New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext 226 | Fax: 866-797-0971
innovationads.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On 
Behalf Of David Krings
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:12 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Tom -- 
> 
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in 
> business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about 
> 150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than 
> we do.
> 
> The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self 
> employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty 
> constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K 
> barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> 
> And you don't feel this is an ISSUE?  You don't honestly feel that the 
> social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of 
> us are underpaid?
> 
> Come on, work with us.  
> 

Gee, as a QA specialist / lead I get not even the 80k. So why should a 
developer get that much money? Developers make software so that QA can test 
it. For that QA should get paid more than developers. And even more, support 
covers the butts of QA which covered the butts of the developers and yet 
support gets paid crap compared to even a QA guy. I think developers are 
already overvalued, but the same applies to doctors (although depends, the 
PCP 
that gets called in the middle of the night deserves good pay) and lawyers. I 
also think that the front desk person deserves the highest pay, same applies 
to administrative assistance. While the big wigs play golf these fine people 
keep a business running. I know that from first hand experience. I worked at 
a 
place where among others the receptionist got laid off. After a week all hell 
broke loose. No office supplies, the water company did not get paid (neither 
did the electric and gas companies, or anyone else), customers left hundreds 
of messages and ran over to the competition because nobody bothered to 
reroute 
the phone lines or shut off the email accounts. And I am sure that everything 
will work fine if all the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies get laid off. And 
some companies do that. When I started working at Henkel in Germany for the 
first time they had 27 layers of management. When I worked there the last 
time 
they were down to less than a dozen. Stuff got done the same as before, but 
without spending millions on chair farters.

But no matter who you ask, that person always makes not enough money. Ask 
A-Rod and I am sure that he would love to get paid even more. They are all 
whiners, just look at that multi-billionaire who lost big in that Bear 
Stearns 
deal. OK, he lost about a billion bucks, but he still has 4 billion left! 
Even 
he is whining and feels cheated.

Honestly, I would be the happiest person on earth if I could make anything 
close to 80k. I think that is plenty awesome money for a 9ish to 5ish job. 
I'd 
be happy with even 70k. Not to say that I am grossly underpaid at the moment. 
Pay is OK, feeds the family and secures a home and then a bit is even left. 
But with even more money, I guess we'd just spend it all and then what, 
complain again it is not enough. We are quite spoiled, there are many who 
have 
to get by on 30k and no benefits. How can one work full time and not even 
have 
decent health insurance? Now those are the folks that have a right to 
complain!

David
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
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http://www.nyphpcon.com

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http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

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From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 09:23:42 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:23:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <b76252690804170611o46ece632rd258d961e3c788ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>
	<117286890804161801q1d36fdban99078de438e0fc78@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417081517.02b59f60@e-government.com>
	<b76252690804170611o46ece632rd258d961e3c788ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804170623w6deaed3es4fd2cdb54b71396d@mail.gmail.com>

 >  No sane engineer would actually choose to be a web developer.

Save for the fact that this is where a majority of the growth in
software engineering has been happening for the past 8 years. Despite
all the whining and moaning, this is where IT is at! During my last
job search, LAMP developers were regarded as the golden children,
eternally blessed and desired. According to the hiring agency (I know,
evil hiring agencies)  I worked through, they couldn't try hard enough
to find LAMP developers, it's all people were asking for.  Web is here
to stay, almost all new projects / companies are centered around web
technologies. We have all hit the jackpot, if you don't like your
current situation, I suggest you take a harder look at all of the
opportunity to be had.

- jake

PS, The one field that the hiring agency wasn't looking for? Finance.


From JasonS at innovationads.com  Thu Apr 17 09:26:23 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:26:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0DF2@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

Yes, but maybe the best opportunities are not available to independents? Just a thought

 

Jason Scott | Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor, New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext 226 | Fax: 866-797-0971
         HYPERLINK "http://www.innovationads.com" \ninnovationads.com 

 

From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of SyAD at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:18 AM
To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

 

This may have been mentioned already, but maybe the best people out there are independent?

 

Steve

 

In a message dated 4/17/2008 7:38:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JasonS at innovationads.com writes:

Ok, so with all this talk, and everyone wanting to make some money, why can't I get a decent resume across my desk?!

I am offering - imo - perhaps the best and most challenging work environment I've seen since I got to NY, and the only people who are handing me decent resumes are recruiters who are looking to earn 20 pct of YOUR salaries...

If any of you are the real deal - from QA to dev or anywhere in between - please, please give me a call or shoot me an email offline? 

And if you're not interested, then please stop asking the world why you can't seem to make a decent living - right here, right now, I can state matter of fact that I can offer that tomorrow to one or two of you, no problem, as long - as Tom says - you, youself, are truly worth it.

And believe it or not, assuming I'm not alone in this, hiring managers are possibly more frustrated than you all are! There are a lot more true employment opporunities out there than there are truly talented programmers to fill them!

Digest that :-)

Good debate, though, overall...I'm enjoying the read

Jason Scott | Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor, New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext 226 | Fax: 866-797-0971
         innovationads.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of David Krings
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:12 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Tom -- 
> 
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in 
> business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about 
> 150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than 
> we do.
> 
> The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self 
> employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty 
> constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K 
> barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> 
> And you don't feel this is an ISSUE?  You don't honestly feel that the 
> social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of 
> us are underpaid?
> 
> Come on, work with us.  
> 

Gee, as a QA specialist / lead I get not even the 80k. So why should a 
developer get that much money? Developers make software so that QA can test 
it. For that QA should get paid more than developers. And even more, support 
covers the butts of QA which covered the butts of the developers and yet 
support gets paid crap compared to even a QA guy. I think developers are 
already overvalued, but the same applies to doctors (although depends, the PCP 
that gets called in the middle of the night deserves good pay) and lawyers. I 
also think that the front desk person deserves the highest pay, same applies 
to administrative assistance. While the big wigs play golf these fine people 
keep a business running. I know that from first hand experience. I worked at a 
place where among others the receptionist got laid off. After a week all hell 
broke loose. No office supplies, the water company did not get paid (neither 
did the electric and gas companies, or anyone else), customers left hundreds 
of messages and ran over to the competition because nobody bothered to reroute 
the phone lines or shut off the email accounts. And I am sure that everything 
will work fine if all the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies get laid off. And 
some companies do that. When I started working at Henkel in Germany for the 
first time they had 27 layers of management. When I worked there the last time 
they were down to less than a dozen. Stuff got done the same as before, but 
without spending millions on chair farters.

But no matter who you ask, that person always makes not enough money. Ask 
A-Rod and I am sure that he would love to get paid even more. They are all 
whiners, just look at that multi-billionaire who lost big in that Bear Stearns 
deal. OK, he lost about a billion bucks, but he still has 4 billion left! Even 
he is whining and feels cheated.

Honestly, I would be the happiest person on earth if I could make anything 
close to 80k. I think that is plenty awesome money for a 9ish to 5ish job. I'd 
be happy with even 70k. Not to say that I am grossly underpaid at the moment. 
Pay is OK, feeds the family and secures a home and then a bit is even left. 
But with even more money, I guess we'd just spend it all and then what, 
complain again it is not enough. We are quite spoiled, there are many who have 
to get by on 30k and no benefits. How can one work full time and not even have 
decent health insurance? Now those are the folks that have a right to complain!

David
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

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http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php





   _____  

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From consult at covenantedesign.com  Thu Apr 17 09:26:05 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:26:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <b76252690804170611o46ece632rd258d961e3c788ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1208393286.29118@coral.he.net>	<117286890804161801q1d36fdban99078de438e0fc78@mail.gmail.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417081517.02b59f60@e-government.com>
	<b76252690804170611o46ece632rd258d961e3c788ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48074FED.5090509@covenantedesign.com>

*looks around nervously*

I'm not insane... I'm not insane!

:P


csnyder wrote:
> This is a tough industry.
>
> You are writing software for an openly hostile environment (the
> internet), using a grab-bag of hashed-up "standards", that has to look
> good and work right on at least 3 different platforms (MSIE, Gecko,
> and WebKit).
>
> On top of all that, unless you work as a cog in the wheels of a big
> firm, you also have to have the interpersonal and business skills to
> pitch jobs and collect money from clients.
>
> No sane engineer would actually choose to be a web developer.
>
> Just sayin.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>   



From consult at covenantedesign.com  Thu Apr 17 09:31:36 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:31:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <000001c8a083$b136aed0$13a40c70$@com>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net>	<48066979.2050907@gmx.net><946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>	<4806C755.4050009@gmx.net>
	<000001c8a083$b136aed0$13a40c70$@com>
Message-ID: <48075138.8080601@covenantedesign.com>

OK OK, STOP giving Peter LSD guys... :P

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> Think of the quickly growing popularity of tags on the internet which
> show graphically the (expected and often unexpected) relationships
> between ideas and concepts in the results of a topic search. 
>
> Or think of the movie Cube (also Cube 2, Cube 3) which is essentially
> about some mathematical construct that shows that when you are
> positioned inside a cube that theoretically all six of the inside walls
> of your cube are simultaneously acting as the outside wall of a whole
> set of cubes that are all pressed against each of the walls of your
> cube. And all those cubes have more cubes pressing against their walls.
> Creating this infinite expanse of cubes that are all interlocked by the
> touching cube walls.
>
> I forget even the theoretical purpose of this infinite cube construct or
> why scientists have devised it, but it does seem to vividly show how
> everything is connected rather infinitely and complexly. And that nature
> is infinitely complex and interrelated at all levels from micro to the
> massively macro scale of super complex galaxy groups that are bonded by
> gravitational pull. 
>
> Bear in mind there is a known psychological profile that shows that some
> people really don't want maximum success, that they purposefully
> self-sabotage their maximum career success because they have deep
> personal feelings that are at odds with their ambitions. Commonly, as it
> turns out, on a deeply personal level many people really just don't like
> the constant responsibility associated with maximum career success.  Or,
> of course, many people have serious issues with money: they feel it is
> dirty, not a noble objective, very material and that the desire to gain
> heaps of money is a bad reflection on their otherwise more pure personal
> ethic. And if money was a bitter family contention when one was a child,
> those bittersweet memories may make many like kryptonite in your hands. 
>
> The net net of this note is that this webmaster test discussion quickly
> uncovered how everything that is going on in one's life is all
> intertwined: business choices and paths, education history, friendship
> model, the feng shui of your home and neighborhood, even your health
> issues and how you eat, how you decide to express and present yourself,
> even how you deal with your sleeping dreams: all these matters are
> interrelated and affecting the moment by moment outcome of everything in
> your life. (Did you know it has been shown that people who sleep next to
> each other affect the content each other's dreams, even causing each
> other's dreaming to start and stop in harmony.)
>
> One may need to look into many aspects of their life to find where is
> the crux of the current obstacle/problem/issue(s) at hand: is the
> stumbling block here in the task that is before me or over there where I
> never eat right at breakfast and then I cannot concentrate. Or eating
> too little for extended periods makes me somewhat grouchy and sharp
> tongued causing me to appear flinty with coworkers when not intended. Or
> is a toothache I don't correct distracting me at all times... 
>
> The webmaster test thread shows clearly how everything (seems like
> everything) is interrelated and you cannot discuss or look for the
> answer to an issue within a single sphere of life/business. Look a layer
> up or down, look a strata to the left. It is all a sliding scale of
> grays, even what appears black and white is just real dark and very
> light gray.
>
> Peter  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> On Behalf Of David Krings
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:43 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
>
> Christopher R. Merlo wrote:
>   
>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:02 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net 
>> <mailto:ramons at gmx.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     A university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field
>>     of choice with the goal to make them subject matter experts in
>>     
> that
>   
>>     field.
>>
>>
>> That's actually not true, and your apparent belief in this untruth is 
>> probably what has led to your seemingly very strongly felt distaste
>>     
> for 
>   
>> university education.
>>     
>
> Huh? I got two university degrees and did so voluntarily. So what you
> say is 
> clearly not the case. My point is that someone who for example takes a
> BSEE 
> program at Alfred State College is required to have 132 credits for 
> graduation. From those 132 credits 60 credit hours are for liberal arts 
> classes and other sciences that are non-major. Not all of those may be
> totally 
> off topic, but I don't get why a BSEE student has to take american
> history 
> again or take an arts course (or even more than just one). The 13 years
> K-12 
> ought to have covered that. I also think that a high school graduate
> should be 
> capable of properly expressing thoughts in speech and writing and not
> needing 
> yet another round of English courses. I got my BSEE degree at a non-US 
> university in a seven semester program with a total of 154 credits and
> as 
> mentioned before only 3 courses were not that much related to
> engineering.
>
>   
>> The purpose of a college or university is to provide the student with
>>     
> an 
>   
>> education, so that the student may go on to contribute back to
>>     
> society.  
>
> Ah, c'mon! Reading books to children or planting trees or donating blood
> or 
> driving people to their doctor's appointments - that is giving back to 
> society. Getting a university degree is for the sake of getting a better
> job 
> with better pay and ideally get some more exposure to a subject that one
>
> likes. How does getting a degree in finance and becoming a greedy
> investment 
> banker give back to society? I can see getting a degree in social work
> being 
> something that gives back to society. Or do you mean that graduates get
> better 
> paying jobs and thus pay more taxes and that helps funding government
> programs?
>
>
> I agree with the rest that you wrote and I don't think it collides with
> what I 
> wrote earlier. My point is that compared to other countries US
> universities 
> focus way too much on a broad education rather than on transferring 
> specialized skills and knowledge of a specific subject. And I think that
> is 
> why foreign workers especially in IT have an advantage. I'm not saying
> that an 
> extra writing course is useless or that art history is utterly
> unimportant, 
> but I think that is something that shouldn't be part of a university
> program.
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>   



From gary.biermann at rht.com  Thu Apr 17 09:58:02 2008
From: gary.biermann at rht.com (Biermann, Gary (02940))
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:58:02 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <010F14E9D6AB8A4383742F141B6BEE3807672288@hqp-ex-mbx05.na.msds.rhi.com>

Speaking from the side of the "Evil Ones", and having been one here in
Manhattan for a few years now, I would have to agree with Jake and
Jason.  In the last 1.5 years even surprisingly average developers are
getting multiple offers with in a week of being on the market and most
of them are using multiple recruiters.  At the agency I work for we have
not had no less then 3 PHP development positions that we were trying to
fill at any one time for the last year.  If you asked me 4 years ago I
wouldn't have known what PHP was.  If are are looking for higher paying
work, my advise would be to do some research on which skills are in most
demand.  Us "Evil Ones" tend to have that info readily available.
 
 
 
Gary Biermann
Account Executive
Robert Half Technology 
 
 
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From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 09:58:39 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:58:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48075138.8080601@covenantedesign.com>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net> <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
	<946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4806C755.4050009@gmx.net> <000001c8a083$b136aed0$13a40c70$@com>
	<48075138.8080601@covenantedesign.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804170658k3b1ddfbau3ef10a1c6e9fed67@mail.gmail.com>

For a great study in the ebbs and flows of an online conversation, check out:

http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/000633.html

- jake


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 10:02:39 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:02:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <010F14E9D6AB8A4383742F141B6BEE3807672288@hqp-ex-mbx05.na.msds.rhi.com>
References: <010F14E9D6AB8A4383742F141B6BEE3807672288@hqp-ex-mbx05.na.msds.rhi.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804170702o3946ee54i5b15f4c038454d47@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Biermann, Gary (02940)
<gary.biermann at rht.com> wrote:
>
>
> Speaking from the side of the "Evil Ones", and having been one here in
> Manhattan for a few years now, I would have to agree with Jake and Jason.
> In the last 1.5 years even surprisingly average developers are getting
> multiple offers with in a week of being on the market and most of them are
> using multiple recruiters.  At the agency I work for we have not had no less
> then 3 PHP development positions that we were trying to fill at any one time
> for the last year.  If you asked me 4 years ago I wouldn't have known what
> PHP was.  If are are looking for higher paying work, my advise would be to
> do some research on which skills are in most demand.  Us "Evil Ones" tend to
> have that info readily available.
>
>
>
>
> Gary Biermann

In case anyone doubts what Gary is saying, I would like to add that he
got me my first job out of college two years ago, when I had only
cursory PHP experience, as, you guessed it, a software developer
working primarily in PHP.

- jake


From ramons at gmx.net  Thu Apr 17 10:03:36 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:03:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <c0e.2bd982aa.3538a713@aol.com>
References: <c0e.2bd982aa.3538a713@aol.com>
Message-ID: <480758B8.90805@gmx.net>

SyAD at aol.com wrote:
> David, I'm shocked that a CS MS would require anything outside of the 
> field, that seems very odd to me.  Maybe things have changed since the 
> *cough, cough* years since I got my Bachelor's, but even when I was 
> getting my Bachelor's (Mechanics and Materials Science, essentially 
> Mechanical Engineering, from Hopkins), the non-major requirements 
> (credits for liberal arts, natural science, etc) were down around 20 
> credits or less, and if you were clever, you could find courses that 
> were useful.  The liberal arts requirement as I remember consisted of 
> one year-long course -- I took Russian for that.

And that is my point. As mentioned in other emails, the BSEE program I 
randomly picked as it was one of the top results from Google asked for a total 
of 132 credits and from those 60 credits that were basically labeled as 
non-major courses, so that is about half of all course work required. I know 
that this differs from school to school, but as mentioned I attended a 
university that asked for 150 credits on-major course work, yet I got the same 
BSEE degree. But am I that wrong in thinking that I got a better engineering 
education?
In the MS program things were mainly on-topic, but for a good part on such a 
basic level that I wondered if I registered for the right course. I epxected 
it to be intelectually challanging, not just a lot of work. One course was 
about e-business, the book was of horrible quality and the course wasn't much 
better. The recurring task was to read 50 pages and then write a ten page 
paper about it. And that week after week. We did have to do a project as well 
and I did a PHP script that took entries from an HTML form and writes them to 
a file. The script and pages were for submitting support tickets for software. 
I never created an HTML page before nor did I have any good relation with 
programming. I came to the conclusion that programming hates me and that I 
hate programming, which is why I chose to do a programming project. That was 
the only tough task in that course and only because I chose to make it difficult.
My impression was that the department wanted to make the courses easy and 
fluffy on purpose so that many students pass and graduate, which boosts the 
numbers on paper and makes the university look good.

> On the other hand, in-major course requirements weren't that onerous 
> either, so I could take Electrical Engineering, Economics and Math 
> Sciences (Optimization, Stats) to, in a sense, design my own major.

One other thing I find silly is the constant hand holding at US universities 
with advisors and mandatory meetings. I found that to be disturbing that the 
school considers me to be that limited in my capabilities to sign up for the 
mandatory courses and pick from those that are in the "Other" bucket. Once 
done I register for the thesis and at that point someone checks if I passed 
all the required course work. I found that having an advisor assigned to me 
was make work for both me and her.
So did you end up designing your major or did you have to sit down with 
someone for hours debating why this course is better than that course?


> It's funny, even though I've been doing analysis/design/programming for 
> all these years, I took very little CS.

Well, the only written warning in high school due to bad grades that I ever 
got was for English. Fast forward a few years and I got hired as technical 
writer at a US research foundation. I guess we each picked up what we needed 
at some other place.

David


From radalapsker at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 17 10:16:45 2008
From: radalapsker at yahoo.com (-- rada --)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:16:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <687879.52651.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Tom,

As someone who grew up under a communist regime, I absolutely love your anti-protectionist attitude. However, I have a factual issue with what you said about IT salaries:

    Look at your market.  The "big" consulting firms 
    charge much more and pay their people much more.  
    How come they are getting it and you are not?  
    That's the question you need to ask.  You 
    shouldn't be looking for protection from the 
    marketplace, you should be looking for ways to 
    excel in it.

I have worked for two of the Big consulting firms for several year. I am very familiar with their particular way of doing business and I'd like to make two points. 

1. Hourly Rates 

In my case, I was billed out at ~$350/hour while making $80K/year. The easy conclusion is: cut out the middle man and take $350/hour for yourself. A slightly more thoughtful conclusion is: cut my rate down to say, $250, since I no longer have a shiny midtown office with a support staff, enterprise hardware/licenses ready to go, etc, etc. But the real deal is something else altogether. The real reason managers hire the big guns is risk assurance, or what is known in consultant speak as "you can't get fired for choosing IBM". The second you are no longer with a big firm, your bid will never even make to due diligence stage of the proposal process, let alone pass it. 

If you don't believe me, look at recruiters. I am a freelancer now, working through agencies. They make a percentage of what I make and therefore would LOVE to get me a higher rate. They simply can't though. I work with several good agencies and the rates are similar across the board even while they can't find enough people. That tells you something right there about the market. 


2. Salaries

There are indeed people making excellent money at big consulting firms. They are called partners. They may be former engineers, but believe me the only way that they make top bonuses etc is if they SELL. If you see a consultant making really good money, it's because they've been selling projects and just haven't made the full transition from a techie to a partner yet. You will invariably see them in project manager roles, which is the bridge.  


I quit big consulting in 2003 and I've been fairly successful as a freelancer. I also happen to support your viewpoint a 100%, both what you said about the evils of regulation (be it unions, licenses, or whatever) and taking personal responsibility for what we choose to do and for how much. However, facts are facts - IT people make less than others when compared in terms of education and skills, and you did go a little bit Ayn Rand on us when you said that we should be looking to excel instead of complaining. I'd love to live in a world where working hard gets me a pass to a mountain paradise of prosperity but it's just not the case. Let's face it, we do what we do because we like it... not because we couldn't get more mileage elsewhere on same brainpower.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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From JasonS at innovationads.com  Thu Apr 17 10:29:09 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:29:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804170702o3946ee54i5b15f4c038454d47@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010F14E9D6AB8A4383742F141B6BEE3807672288@hqp-ex-mbx05.na.msds.rhi.com>
	<e065b8610804170702o3946ee54i5b15f4c038454d47@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0E3E@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

Jake,

Things are going very well, thanks. Growing like crazy, made some very exciting acquisitions, and building out some really nice new tools and features, have a whole new team made up of a bunch of great guys, and who are producing some very solid code and designs. It is nice to watch a true team environment coming together at IA.

Say the word and I will attend the next meeting. I want to meet all these people who's posts I have been reading for the last 6 months.

And I mean what I said, too, I'd love to sit down and talk for a bit if you're interested, I'll buy lunch! :-)

As for the rest of you, several hours have passed now, and not one resume, phone call, or email. Who were the folks saying they couldn't find the good positions again? ;-)

What a strange hiring market this is proving to be.

And while we're on the subject let me point one more frustration that I've been experiencing when it comes to LAMP developers - at the risk of being overly general, MOST ARE SIMPLY NOT DEVELOPERS! If I had a dime for everyone I've come across who claims to have built ecommerce sites, but using OS Commerce. Who claimed to have built corporate websites, but using Drupal. Who claimed to have built social networking and/or blog sites, but using Wordpress or some similar package. Hate to break the news, but - IMO - that is not what makes a developer. 

Now, I'm not saying that you have to recreate the wheel every time, but you do have to understand how to build the wheel if needed. Even now when I show many LAMP developers a new application or program I wrote, the first question I get asked is, "That's really neat! Where did you find it?"

Where did I find it? :-)

Maybe part of the problem is that there are so many available - albeit crappy - pre-built packages out there that the community at large is using the word "developer" too freely? IMO, there is a big difference between developers and - I don't know - "implementers"? 

Implementers can hack together downloaded code (80% of the market); developers can create what doesn't already exist (20% of the market); true developers are only happy when creating what doesn't already exist (5% of the market); and true, talented developers can create what doesn't already exist, and make it secure, scalable, simple, and practical (1% of the market, if that).

True, talented developers should have no trouble finding satisfying and lucrative employment, with benefits, bonuses, the whole nine. And I reiterate - again - my previous offer, if you are a true, talented developer, and you are having trouble, CALL ME :-)

Thanks

Jason Scott |?Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor,?New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext?226?|?Fax: 866-797-0971
???????? innovationads.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Jake McGraw
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:03 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Re: Why IT Sucks

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Biermann, Gary (02940)
<gary.biermann at rht.com> wrote:
>
>
> Speaking from the side of the "Evil Ones", and having been one here in
> Manhattan for a few years now, I would have to agree with Jake and Jason.
> In the last 1.5 years even surprisingly average developers are getting
> multiple offers with in a week of being on the market and most of them are
> using multiple recruiters.  At the agency I work for we have not had no less
> then 3 PHP development positions that we were trying to fill at any one time
> for the last year.  If you asked me 4 years ago I wouldn't have known what
> PHP was.  If are are looking for higher paying work, my advise would be to
> do some research on which skills are in most demand.  Us "Evil Ones" tend to
> have that info readily available.
>
>
>
>
> Gary Biermann

In case anyone doubts what Gary is saying, I would like to add that he
got me my first job out of college two years ago, when I had only
cursory PHP experience, as, you guessed it, a software developer
working primarily in PHP.

- jake
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

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From paul at devonianfarm.com  Thu Apr 17 10:33:44 2008
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (paul at devonianfarm.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:33:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <40673.192.168.1.71.1208442824.webmail@192.168.1.71>

rada says:

...However, facts are facts - IT people make less than others when compared in terms of education and skills, and you did go a little bit Ayn Rand on us when you said that we should be looking to excel instead of complaining. I'd love to live in a world where working hard gets me a pass to a mountain paradise of prosperity but it's just not the case. Let's face it, we do what we do because we like it... not because we couldn't get more mileage elsewhere on same brainpower.

---------

     I think this is the root cause of the "skilled IT worker" shortage.  I see lots of Generation X'ers leaving the field because they don't see viable paths of advancement.

    Two IT workers I know have gotten into business school because they've had the experience that people just don't take them seriously.  One of them is quite a comic figure these days:  he seems to have deliberately gained 30 pounds and he dyes streaks in his hair so he looks older and more 'experienced'.  The three of all us worked in an organization that practiced a profession that's endangered by the IT revolution:  we didn't have the right degree,  so our opinions just didn't matter -- despite that,  I think we all had better perspectives on where the industry was going than the people who 'mattered' in the organization.




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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Thu Apr 17 10:45:25 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:45:25 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208443525.19041@coral.he.net>

To clarify two things re: the below response:

1.  I most definitely DO NOT WANT TO LEGISLATE pay scales for 
programmers (not even sure where anyone got the idea that I did!).  I 
feel we need to improve the SOCIAL STATUS of the field, so that market 
rates increase in and of themselves.

2.  I cannot "quit my job and find another one", because I'm self 
employed.  Me is counting on me to show up for work!! :)

-- Kristina

--------------------

> "I want to be a programmer.  I just want to get paid what my skills
> are WORTH as a programmer."
> 
> As a hobby economist I have to respond to this one. :D
> 
> It sounds to me like you'd like to legislate what you're worth. That
> approach causes even more problems than it solves because it means a
> lot of people who could be employed at lower rates will now be
> unemployable, period. We are all worth what the market says we're
> worth. If demand for talented developers is high, and supply is low
> (as I've seen here in NYC) then you'll be paid handsomely. If demand
> is low, and supply is high, then you'll be paid very little.
> 
> If you believe you are worth more than you're currently getting - than
> quit! Find another job that pays you what you're looking for. I know
> from experience that there are 100k+ jobs out there for *good* PHP
> developers (granted, it's my personal belief that it takes a little
> more than just developer skills to hit that mark, but they *are* out
> there).
> 
> Dictating by government fiat what a "programmer" should make only
> exacerbates the problem by leaving all those sub-par developers out in
> the cold - completely unemployable in their industry. With that
> prospect, average developers will never even have the chance to become
> above-average.
> 
> - Brian D.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Kristina Anderson
> <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> > Tom, like a lot of the folks on this list, I'm a PHP programmer
> >  developing internet applications (coding forms, building MySQL
> >  databases, meeting with clients to determine requirements, etc. 
etc.).
> >  I've been doing this (in different languages and platforms) for 10
> >  years and in PHP for the past 2 years (and love PHP!).  I do this 
for a
> >  living because I like doing it, I'd probably be better off in
> >  retirement if I went to law school in the near future but I don't 
want
> >  to do this.  I want to be a programmer.  I just want to get paid 
what
> >  my skills are WORTH as a programmer.
> >
> >  I'd love to charge my clients more.  And I've recently gotten wise 
to
> >  opportunities where clients are able to offer me part ownership of
> >  startups in addition to hourly consulting rates.  But...I do think 
that
> >  clients price things out and give bids to people who charge 
reasonable
> >  rates.  There is a reason I get 90% of the projects I bid on.  If I
> >  asked for $100 an hour, that would be great, but $100 an hour for 0
> >  hours is, well....zero dollars.
> >
> >  As a self employed person I'd love to hear any real, usable 
suggestions
> >  on how to increase income.  My network is great and I have tons of
> >  projects going, business is growing every day as I meet new
> >  people...but the market does price at a certain level and if I 
start
> >  asking for more than people can afford, or more than others with my
> >  same skills are getting paid...I am not going to get hired.
> >
> >  Your libertarian jawflap about how Social Security is  "hurting 
us" (I
> >  disagree) and how the market is totally open for me to charge 
whatever
> >  I want are well...interesting theory and pretty typical politics 
for a
> >  certain segment of the IT industry...but.  And saying I "look to
> >  others" to "solve my problems" is beyond a low blow, it's just too
> >  stupid a remark to even rebut.
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >
> >  Kristina
> >
> >
> >  > Hi Kristina,
> >  >
> >  > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Kristina Anderson
> >
> > > <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> >  > > Tom --
> >  > >
> >  > >  The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average 
attorney
> >  in
> >  > >  business for themselves makes about the same.  The average 
CPA,
> >  about
> >
> >
> > > >  150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way 
more
> >  than
> >  > >  we do.
> >  >
> >  > I have what I consider to be more than average experience with
> >  > electricians and they are nice folks, but hardly what I'd call 
on the
> >  > top of the "social status" scale and I would question what the 
average
> >  > salary was, but I doubt your numbers.
> >  >
> >  > Really, I doubt your "average".  But it doesn't matter.  You 
make what
> >  > you do because that is what you are willing to work for.  
Suppose the
> >  > floor fell out of IT tomorrow (literally), and the going rate 
for PHP
> >  > was $10 per hour.  Would you still do it?  Maybe for fun, but 
not as a
> >  > job.  Why?  Because you won't work for that little.  You couldn't
> >  > survive.  But you can survive on $80K (or whatever), so you do 
it.
> >  > When you decide that $80K isn't enough, you'll stop working for 
that
> >  > much.
> >  >
> >  > >
> >  > >  The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm 
self
> >  > >  employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is 
pretty
> >  > >  constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 
100K
> >  > >  barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> >  >
> >  > Look at your market.  The "big" consulting firms charge much 
more and
> >  > pay their people much more.  How come they are getting it and 
you are
> >  > not?  That's the question you need to ask.  You shouldn't be 
looking
> >  > for protection from the marketplace, you should be looking for 
ways to
> >  > excel in it.
> >  >
> >  > >
> >  > >  Come on, work with us.
> >  > >
> >  > I am, really!  I'm telling you to not look to others to solve 
your
> >  > problem - it won't help.  Look at things Social Security and 
pension
> >  > plans.  These systems put the burden on others - and they both 
have
> >  > severe flaws which are hurting us now.
> >  >
> >  > Look at what you can do to excel.  How are your sales efforts
> >  > (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
> >  > dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be 
embraced, not
> >  > feared)?  Professional networking?  Who is your customer?  Are 
their
> >  > pockets deep enough?  Are you really taking advantage of your
> >  > expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at 
heart)?
> >  >  How can you get the work done faster?  Can you invest in tools 
(store
> >  > bought or that you create) to help?  Invest in services?  
People?  Can
> >  > you reuse code?  Are you tracking problems so that you don't 
make the
> >  > same mistake again?
> >  >
> >  > There are answers, but no one just pays more for your 
services "just
> >  because".
> >  >
> >  > Tom
> >  > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >  > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >  >
> >  > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >  > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >  >
> >  > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >  > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
> freelance consulting, application development
> (917) 512-3594
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 
\


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Thu Apr 17 11:04:25 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:04:25 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208444665.25857@coral.he.net>

Oh I assure you that I'm not "angry or whiny" and am completely 
sincere, and also assure you that in NYC, secretaries DO make more than 
46K...not sure why you found that "angry or whiny", it's simply a fact.



> Let's be intellectually honest Kristina,
> 
> It's hard to take your emails with a dose of sincerity, when your 
> scholarship seems random and a result of passion. Phrases like 
> "Secretaries make more than this" and posting what you "feel" is the 
> average income for a particular profession (without citation or 
> reference), leads the reader to thinking you're angry or whiny.
> 
> If however you are sincere, I do think that there is a particular 
> paragraph in Tom's reply that should be of interest:
> 
> -TOM MELENDEZ -
>  >Look at what you can do to excel. How are your sales efforts
> >  (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
> >  dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be embraced, 
not
> >  feared)? Professional networking? Who is your customer? Are their
> >  pockets deep enough? Are you really taking advantage of your
> >  expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at 
heart)?
> >  How can you get the work done faster? Can you invest in tools 
(store
> >  bought or that you create) to help? Invest in services? People? Can
> >  you reuse code? Are you tracking problems so that you don't make 
the
> >  same mistake again?
> 
> This paragraph reminds me of a book my friend recommended some time 
ago, entitled, "What color is your parachute?". The whole concept is 
not looking to an outside change, when sculpting your small business 
growth, but looking at your inner development and maturation. And in so 
doing, specific areas of personal growth will be obviously and easily 
leveraged to grow your small business substantially. Then, hopefully, 
it becomes a beautiful cycle of inner growth -> application -> business 
growth -> inner growth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > The salary numbers on that site (46K for an accountant?? 
Secretaries 
> > make more than this) seem way low, and I was moreso referring to 
NYC 
> > salaries...if my numbers are way off, I do apologize...but I do 
feel 
> > that these professions are overall more lucrative to practitioners 
than 
> > IT is...
> >
> > I love these discussions with you guys, I'm not intimidated in the 
> > least, as you can see, to be a minority in a "male" IT profession 
(or 
> > discussion board!)  :)!
> >
> >   
> >> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >>     
> >>> Tom -- 
> >>>
> >>> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney 
> >>>       
> > in 
> >   
> >>> business for themselves makes about the same. 
> >>>       
> >> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Corporate_Attorney/Salary
> >>     
> >>>  The average CPA, about 
> >>> 150K.  
> >>>       
> >> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Accountant/Salary
> >>
> >> -- 
> >>
> >> T. Gales & Associates
> >> 'Helping People Connect with Technology'
> >>
> >> http://www.tgaconnect.com
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >>
> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >>
> >>
> >>     
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From radalapsker at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 17 11:07:23 2008
From: radalapsker at yahoo.com (-- rada --)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:07:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <132466.94339.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

To Jason @ InnovationAds.com
 
Jason, from the tone of your email, you think we developers are full of sh*t. If I understand correctly, you can?t get a decent resume across your desk and you are frustrated and desperate to find people to work in ?perhaps the best environment you?ve seen in NY?. 
 
The real picture seems a little different however.
 
According to your website, you don?t have any technology jobs:
http://jobs.innovationads.com/technology
 
And here is just a sample of a long, long list of empty cliches from your employment page. You?d think this was a draft for an article in The Onion: dynamic company, exponential growth, success based on high quality products and services at a low cost , constantly looking for ways to improve in the ways we deliver services, market leader connecting thousands of consumers with businesses every day, multi-faceted organization , believes in maintaining high standards in everything we do, the better we are the better we serve our clients, dedicated to hiring the best in the industry, workforce geared toward achieving even higher levels of success, strong commitment to diversity, diversity helps us meet and exceed our customers' needs, diversity is vital and necessary to our success in providing quality products and services for our clients, committed to helping the environment by carrying out a set of principals which are aligned with the Company?s
 mission, etc. etc. etc.
 
Sorry to be so harsh, but do you honestly think the above paints a good picture for prospective candidates? Your website is the first place we are going to look and it just screams corporate boredom and politics. If it were one percent as passionate and human as your post, perhaps you?d have a better success rate.
 


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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From tedd at sperling.com  Thu Apr 17 11:08:12 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:08:12 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <480629E3.9000005@bizcomputinginc.com>
References: <1208361750.10824@coral.he.net>
	<480629E3.9000005@bizcomputinginc.com>
Message-ID: <p06240806c42d1312925f@[192.168.1.101]>

At 12:31 PM -0400 4/16/08, Jim Hendricks wrote:
>Guess 24 years experience programming in all kinds of environments 
>with 15 or so languages does not constitute a profession then based 
>on your position that it requires a degree.  I have no degree.  I 
>have very little formal training.

Well... I have three degrees and 40+ years of programming and am in 
the same boat as you are.

With the strict definition of a professional being one that requires 
a license and considering that we don't have one, then we aren't.

The problem as I see it is that who is going to license me? Who is 
going to set in judgement of what I know and how competent I am?

Perhaps some NYC government committee? However, their web site 
(nyc.gov) certainly wouldn't pass my evaluation with 183 validation 
errors. Some might say "So what?" to which I say adhering to 
standards is one of the things that licensing is about.

I've been certified in other professions (Geologist CPG-2297, for 
example), and the problem is what is the certification process and 
what do they consider as important?

The web is changing everyday and I can't see any group keeping up 
with it. Furthermore, what academic institution is going to change 
their course work quick enough to keep what with the changes as well. 
After reviewing my grandson's high school course work, I can see 
clearly that teachers are not on the bleeding edge. So, in my mind, 
even having a degree is of little value other than providing the 
basics of computer science, which you can get along the way.

We have to live with the fact that there will always be people who 
will hold to the belief that a professional is one who has been 
licensed, but that's a very narrow view. My advice is to ignore them 
and go about your work. After all, your clients will be the ultimate 
judge of your work anyway.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From consult at covenantedesign.com  Thu Apr 17 11:11:33 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:11:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208444665.25857@coral.he.net>
References: <1208444665.25857@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <480768A5.2000900@covenantedesign.com>

I wish you would have read the fullness of my post. =D

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Oh I assure you that I'm not "angry or whiny" and am completely 
> sincere, and also assure you that in NYC, secretaries DO make more than 
> 46K...not sure why you found that "angry or whiny", it's simply a fact.
>
>
>
>   
>> Let's be intellectually honest Kristina,
>>
>> It's hard to take your emails with a dose of sincerity, when your 
>> scholarship seems random and a result of passion. Phrases like 
>> "Secretaries make more than this" and posting what you "feel" is the 
>> average income for a particular profession (without citation or 
>> reference), leads the reader to thinking you're angry or whiny.
>>
>> If however you are sincere, I do think that there is a particular 
>> paragraph in Tom's reply that should be of interest:
>>
>> -TOM MELENDEZ -
>>  >Look at what you can do to excel. How are your sales efforts
>>     
>>>  (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
>>>  dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be embraced, 
>>>       
> not
>   
>>>  feared)? Professional networking? Who is your customer? Are their
>>>  pockets deep enough? Are you really taking advantage of your
>>>  expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at 
>>>       
> heart)?
>   
>>>  How can you get the work done faster? Can you invest in tools 
>>>       
> (store
>   
>>>  bought or that you create) to help? Invest in services? People? Can
>>>  you reuse code? Are you tracking problems so that you don't make 
>>>       
> the
>   
>>>  same mistake again?
>>>       
>> This paragraph reminds me of a book my friend recommended some time 
>>     
> ago, entitled, "What color is your parachute?". The whole concept is 
> not looking to an outside change, when sculpting your small business 
> growth, but looking at your inner development and maturation. And in so 
> doing, specific areas of personal growth will be obviously and easily 
> leveraged to grow your small business substantially. Then, hopefully, 
> it becomes a beautiful cycle of inner growth -> application -> business 
> growth -> inner growth
>   
>>
>>
>>
>> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>     
>>> The salary numbers on that site (46K for an accountant?? 
>>>       
> Secretaries 
>   
>>> make more than this) seem way low, and I was moreso referring to 
>>>       
> NYC 
>   
>>> salaries...if my numbers are way off, I do apologize...but I do 
>>>       
> feel 
>   
>>> that these professions are overall more lucrative to practitioners 
>>>       
> than 
>   
>>> IT is...
>>>
>>> I love these discussions with you guys, I'm not intimidated in the 
>>> least, as you can see, to be a minority in a "male" IT profession 
>>>       
> (or 
>   
>>> discussion board!)  :)!
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> Tom -- 
>>>>>
>>>>> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney 
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>> in 
>>>   
>>>       
>>>>> business for themselves makes about the same. 
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Corporate_Attorney/Salary
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>>  The average CPA, about 
>>>>> 150K.  
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Accountant/Salary
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> T. Gales & Associates
>>>> 'Helping People Connect with Technology'
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tgaconnect.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>
>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>   



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Thu Apr 17 11:20:38 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:20:38 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208445638.1931@coral.he.net>

Oh, I did read it.

> I wish you would have read the fullness of my post. =D
> 
> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Oh I assure you that I'm not "angry or whiny" and am completely 
> > sincere, and also assure you that in NYC, secretaries DO make more 
than 
> > 46K...not sure why you found that "angry or whiny", it's simply a 
fact.
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> >> Let's be intellectually honest Kristina,
> >>
> >> It's hard to take your emails with a dose of sincerity, when your 
> >> scholarship seems random and a result of passion. Phrases like 
> >> "Secretaries make more than this" and posting what you "feel" is 
the 
> >> average income for a particular profession (without citation or 
> >> reference), leads the reader to thinking you're angry or whiny.
> >>
> >> If however you are sincere, I do think that there is a particular 
> >> paragraph in Tom's reply that should be of interest:
> >>
> >> -TOM MELENDEZ -
> >>  >Look at what you can do to excel. How are your sales efforts
> >>     
> >>>  (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
> >>>  dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be 
embraced, 
> >>>       
> > not
> >   
> >>>  feared)? Professional networking? Who is your customer? Are their
> >>>  pockets deep enough? Are you really taking advantage of your
> >>>  expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at 
> >>>       
> > heart)?
> >   
> >>>  How can you get the work done faster? Can you invest in tools 
> >>>       
> > (store
> >   
> >>>  bought or that you create) to help? Invest in services? People? 
Can
> >>>  you reuse code? Are you tracking problems so that you don't make 
> >>>       
> > the
> >   
> >>>  same mistake again?
> >>>       
> >> This paragraph reminds me of a book my friend recommended some 
time 
> >>     
> > ago, entitled, "What color is your parachute?". The whole concept 
is 
> > not looking to an outside change, when sculpting your small 
business 
> > growth, but looking at your inner development and maturation. And 
in so 
> > doing, specific areas of personal growth will be obviously and 
easily 
> > leveraged to grow your small business substantially. Then, 
hopefully, 
> > it becomes a beautiful cycle of inner growth -> application -> 
business 
> > growth -> inner growth
> >   
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >>     
> >>> The salary numbers on that site (46K for an accountant?? 
> >>>       
> > Secretaries 
> >   
> >>> make more than this) seem way low, and I was moreso referring to 
> >>>       
> > NYC 
> >   
> >>> salaries...if my numbers are way off, I do apologize...but I do 
> >>>       
> > feel 
> >   
> >>> that these professions are overall more lucrative to 
practitioners 
> >>>       
> > than 
> >   
> >>> IT is...
> >>>
> >>> I love these discussions with you guys, I'm not intimidated in 
the 
> >>> least, as you can see, to be a minority in a "male" IT profession 
> >>>       
> > (or 
> >   
> >>> discussion board!)  :)!
> >>>
> >>>   
> >>>       
> >>>> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >>>>     
> >>>>         
> >>>>> Tom -- 
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average 
attorney 
> >>>>>       
> >>>>>           
> >>> in 
> >>>   
> >>>       
> >>>>> business for themselves makes about the same. 
> >>>>>       
> >>>>>           
> >>>> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Corporate_Attorney/Salary
> >>>>     
> >>>>         
> >>>>>  The average CPA, about 
> >>>>> 150K.  
> >>>>>       
> >>>>>           
> >>>> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Accountant/Salary
> >>>>
> >>>> -- 
> >>>>
> >>>> T. Gales & Associates
> >>>> 'Helping People Connect with Technology'
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.tgaconnect.com
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>>>
> >>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>     
> >>>>         
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>>
> >>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >>>
> >>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   
> >>>       
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >>
> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >>
> >>
> >>     
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From tedd at sperling.com  Thu Apr 17 11:21:17 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:21:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208364016.24187@coral.he.net>
References: <1208364016.24187@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240807c42d1879d67b@[192.168.1.101]>

At 9:40 AM -0700 4/16/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>Probably I would run into issues with licensing myself as my degree was
>in Literature & Linguistics (1985) ...and I used an old manual
>typewriter to do my research papers! LOL.
>
--Kristina:

I received my last degree in 1984 from Michigan State University.

I used an Apple ][ to type out my thesis. When I submitted it, it was 
a big deal in the submission office because they had never seen an 
original manuscript before. Everything up to that point had been 
type-written pages with white-out mixed with photo copies and such. 
Mine was a simple and clean original type-written manuscript.

When I told them that I had used an Apple ][ word processor to print 
my thesis, they had no clue of what word processing was and had ever 
heard of such a thing.

How things have changed in less than three decades.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From tedd at sperling.com  Thu Apr 17 11:24:30 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:24:30 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1208367999.17071@coral.he.net> <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
	<946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240808c42d1bd7a081@[192.168.1.101]>

At 9:24 PM -0400 4/16/08, Christopher R. Merlo wrote:
>So, anyway, I felt compelled to write, because I'm afraid that 
>people trying to choose whether to get a college education or not 
>might be misled into thinking it's something it's not.  The service 
>we provide is not something you can get anywhere else, and for lots 
>of people, it's the difference between promotions or not.
>$0.02,
>-c

If I had to do it again, I'd be a blackjack dealer in Vegas.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From paul at devonianfarm.com  Thu Apr 17 11:29:46 2008
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (paul at devonianfarm.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:29:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <51056.192.168.1.70.1208446186.webmail@192.168.1.70>

    I think the problem isn't just the social status of IT workers,  but the social status of IT itself:

http://advice.cio.com/why-it-sucks


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From JasonS at innovationads.com  Thu Apr 17 11:44:50 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:44:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <132466.94339.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <132466.94339.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0E93@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

Nope, I think MOST of you are full of sh*t. Unfortunately, such is the bell curve of life ? 7 out of every ten people fall below the curve. Two of the three in the upper half are respectable. And then there?s the one. The one out of every ten who can outperform them all with his or her eyes closed. That one person is the difference maker. That is the person hiring managers will pay for. That is who I struggle day in, day out to find.

 

Critiquing the website accomplishes nothing, both you and I can sit and complain about corporate marketing departments all day long. Although I will certainly forward your comments along to the responsible parties as valuable input. But that?s neither here nor there.

 

Regardless of what is on the website, or how it comes across, the ?real picture? is that I am pushing hard ? with everything I?ve got - to change the face of an industry here, an exciting industry that is full of opportunities to learn and exploit emerging technologies, where the development staff is the crown jewel of the company (http://www.cio.com/article/194600), and where the opportunities to double or triple in size are everywhere. Believe me, it doesn?t get much further away from ?corporate boredom and politics? than this J

 

That said, --rada--, are you the one in ten? Who can come in and change a company, change an industry, with nothing but a computer, creativity, intellectual curiosity, and sheer determination? If so, come in and call me out J

 

Come see for yourself what I am talking about. 

 

I am - graciously - holding out a brass ring here for a true programming talent. All they have to do is take it. 

 

Jason Scott | Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor, New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext 226 | Fax: 866-797-0971
         HYPERLINK "http://www.innovationads.com" \ninnovationads.com 

 

From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of -- rada --
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:07 AM
To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
Subject: [nycphp-talk] (no subject)

 

To Jason @ InnovationAds.com

 

Jason, from the tone of your email, you think we developers are full of sh*t. If I understand correctly, you can?t get a decent resume across your desk and you are frustrated and desperate to find people to work in ?perhaps the best environment you?ve seen in NY?. 

 

The real picture seems a little different however.

 

According to your website, you don?t have any technology jobs:

HYPERLINK "http://jobs.innovationads.com/technology"http://jobs.innovationads.com/technology

 

And here is just a sample of a long, long list of empty cliches from your employment page. You?d think this was a draft for an article in The Onion: dynamic company, exponential growth, success based on high quality products and services at a low cost , constantly looking for ways to improve in the ways we deliver services, market leader connecting thousands of consumers with businesses every day, multi-faceted organization , believes in maintaining high standards in everything we do, the better we are the better we serve our clients, dedicated to hiring the best in the industry, workforce geared toward achieving even higher levels of success, strong commitment to diversity, diversity helps us meet and exceed our customers' needs, diversity is vital and necessary to our success in providing quality products and services for our clients, committed to helping the environment by carrying out a set of principals which are aligned with the Company?s mission, etc. etc. etc.

 

Sorry to be so harsh, but do you honestly think the above paints a good picture for prospective candidates? Your website is the first place we are going to look and it just screams corporate boredom and politics. If it were one percent as passionate and human as your post, perhaps you?d have a better success rate.

 

 

   _____  

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. HYPERLINK "http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20"Try it now.

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008 5:34 PM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008 5:34 PM
 
  
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Thu Apr 17 11:52:43 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:52:43 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208447563.13855@coral.he.net>

Tedd --

That's the kind of gizmo that really could have freed up some time for 
me...I remember going through reams of carbon paper and tubs of 
whiteout and making just a huge mess and having to retype things at 3 
AM...things that were already written out in two drafts on legal pads...

Then again I guess the college kids today instead of going to $3 
pitcher nights are all staying in posting profiles on MySpace...??

How computers have changed the world (and the course of our lives!).

-- Kristina

> At 9:40 AM -0700 4/16/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >Probably I would run into issues with licensing myself as my degree 
was
> >in Literature & Linguistics (1985) ...and I used an old manual
> >typewriter to do my research papers! LOL.
> >
> --Kristina:
> 
> I received my last degree in 1984 from Michigan State University.
> 
> I used an Apple ][ to type out my thesis. When I submitted it, it was 
> a big deal in the submission office because they had never seen an 
> original manuscript before. Everything up to that point had been 
> type-written pages with white-out mixed with photo copies and such. 
> Mine was a simple and clean original type-written manuscript.
> 
> When I told them that I had used an Apple ][ word processor to print 
> my thesis, they had no clue of what word processing was and had ever 
> heard of such a thing.
> 
> How things have changed in less than three decades.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> 
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> 
> 




From paul at devonianfarm.com  Thu Apr 17 11:55:47 2008
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (paul at devonianfarm.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:55:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <35759.192.168.1.70.1208447747.webmail@192.168.1.70>

At 9:24 PM -0400 4/16/08, Christopher R. Merlo wrote:
>So, anyway, I felt compelled to write, because I'm afraid that 
>people trying to choose whether to get a college education or not 
>might be misled into thinking it's something it's not.  The service 
>we provide is not something you can get anywhere else, and for lots 
>of people, it's the difference between promotions or not.
>$0.02,
>-c

    It's a big problem for Generation X and younger people.

    I know a lot of people who are stuck with $100,000+ in college debt but aren't able to get jobs much better than answering the phone at a mutual fund or managing a video store.

    Student loans have created an ecological crisis much like the housing bubble that's currently unwinding.  People were willing to spend more for college from 1980-2008 because financing was available and aggressively marketed.  So the price of college went up.

    Although I think there are some higher values involved in education,  the "market" value of a college education hasn't really increased -- it's certainly a ticket to a certain strata of "top of the low end" jobs in the service sector,  line management in particular,  but it rarely leads up.

    Why?  There's a limited amount of opportunity in the world. People who "blame the victim" and say that people who are stuck should get themselves unstuck and get a better career might be right on an individual basis -- some people certainly can do this -- but if everybody did it,  there wouldn't be anybody to answer the phone at the mutual fund.

    In fact,  I've seen that college and other debt have a destructive effect on people's ambition just as much as welfare.  I'm debt free,  so if I hustle and make an extra $50 or $1000 or $20000,  I can put it in my pocket,  put in the bank,  buy something I like,  roll the money into a new project.  That gives me some motivation.

    I know people who spend half their time at the bankruptcy court and family court...  For them,  any extra $ they make is just going to go to their creditors,  so why bother?

    I know a lot of 20-somethings who need to make a huge payment every month on their student loans...  They're under a lot of pressure to get the first job that's "good enough"...  Taking the risk to find "something better" could land them in default.
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From lists at zaunere.com  Thu Apr 17 12:20:37 2008
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:20:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>
References: <1208390384.14638@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <013c01c8a0a6$f8a29900$e9e7cb00$@com>

A note on this thread in general:
Please keep it clean and the one-line responses to a minimum, or take them
off-list - there's too much traffic for posts that don't have real content.


Hi Kristina, et al,

Wow, what a thread... I remember a similar one years ago, and obviously
these types of issues are still preeminent - regardless of the economy.

I agree Kristina - there is a mismatch between the underlying importance of
IT workers (notably developers, architectures, etc) and their recognition,
reward, and appreciation (yes, cry for us, Argentina).

As many of us probably do, I have an ear on the start-up, entrepreneurial
and "Silicon Alley" crowd as it's often coined.  What's always surprising,
and frankly somewhat amusing, is that through the technology start-up
process - concept development, prototyping, funding, implementation - the
technology people are often secondary, and even trivialized.  Typically the
importance of the technology - and the technical aspects of the project -
are given only grunt recognition, not much beyond that of a ditch digger (no
offense the ditch diggers on the list).  Then, once a company enters a more
mature phase - like revenue - these same companies now struggle to find good
technical talent in order to scale and sustain themselves.

That said, there are consistently good looking jobs out there - just look at
the NYPHP-Jobs list.  Anyone who really wanted a good job, could get one -
the PHP job market is extremely tight - and even in this rocky economy, a
good developer can call their price.  And if you're dealing with one of
those start-ups that was annoying last year, like in any job market,
sometimes you have to swallow your pride.

H




> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
> bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Kristina Anderson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:00 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
> 
> Tom --
> 
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in
> business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about
> 150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than
> we do.
> 
> The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self
> employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty
> constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K
> barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> 
> And you don't feel this is an ISSUE?  You don't honestly feel that the
> social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of
> us are underpaid?
> 
> Come on, work with us.
> 
> -- Kristina
> 
> > Guys, I have to be honest, this  "Webmaster test" and its associated
> > threads are a train wreck for me.  I can't stop reading them,
> although
> > admittedly I find them ridiculous.
> >
> > I do believe in the saying, "if you don't have something nice to
> > say..." which is why I haven't commented thus far, but if this email
> > below is flamebait, then, well, you got me (and no, I'm not the type
> > to fall for Rick Rolls).
> >
> > "Connected with the low social status of IT"
> > "I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?"
> > "I see two things that suck about careers in IT:  (1) the pay"
> >
> > Are you kidding me?  Listen, I don't know you or your status, but
> this
> > is not the life I've lived through my career in technology or the
> > perception I have of the industry, nor is it that of my friends and
> > colleagues.  I mean no disrespect, but have you actually tried
> > looking?
> >
> > To be fair, IT is a very general term, and I suspect you might be in
> > the more traditional definition of it, meaning corporate LAN support
> > and the like.  But for web engineers, this should not be the case,
> > despite the recession.  To be blunt, I have friends and colleagues
> > with multiple offers, from the "big guys".  The recruiters are
> calling
> > and messaging on the social networking sites daily.  So, to paint the
> > picture that this field is disintegrating, or not really a
> profession,
> > or whatever, to lurkers, newbies and veterans alike is just plain
> > wrong.
> >
> > As for that 3 comment I flagged, well, I do agree with the 2nd point
> > you listed there.  That does suck.  But, then again, you see that in
> > every industry.
> >
> > And for those yearning for a life of state licensing and unions,
> > please be careful what you wish for.  The same system that protects
> > many also keeps many others out of work.  Ask a Long Island K-12
> > teacher why they can't get a job even though they are at the top of
> > their field.  Ask any contractor that has to compete on the lowest
> > possible price because they are bound by law to do things a certain
> > way with certain tools with certain procedures.  They've commoditized
> > their industries and now can't differentiate themselves from others
> in
> > their field.  And, when was the last time you saw any real innovation
> > in those fields that made its way to us?  I'm still turning on the
> > lights the same way my parents did.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:32 PM,  <paul at devonianfarm.com> wrote:
> > > <rant>
> > >     This is a continuity reboot of the "Webmaster test" thread.
> > >
> > >     I'm a member of the ACM,  although I don't know why.  There's a
> lot of handwringing in "Communications of the ACM" about the state of
> the IT job markets...  Is it expanding or contracting?  Why aren't more
> women in IT?  It sounds like "blah blah blah" to me.
> > >
> > >     You hear a lot of talk about the threat of outsourcing to US IT
> jobs...  The way I see it,  outsourcing doesn't cause unemployment for
> IT workers but it does lower our pay and it does lower our social
> status -- which is the point people don't talk about.
> > >
> > >     I see two things that suck about careers in IT:  (1) the pay,
> and (2) working for people who don't know what they hell they're doing.
> > >
> > >     I'm not going to complain about my current situation,  which is
> pretty much what I need at this point in my life,  but,  like a lot of
> people in IT,  I've worked at a string of crazy places.
> > >
> > >     IT jobs pay better than working for Wal*Mart,  but my brother-
> in-law,  who works as a foreman on a construction site,  gets paid
> better than me -- despite the fact that I've got twice the education
> and skills that seem to be rare and in demand...  (It's always seemed
> that way no matter which side of the table I've sit at in job
> interviews)  Construction workers have a union,  but IT people don't
> work.
> > >
> > >     Last summer I was a contractor at a company that had a great
> culture,  great clients and was working with interesting and fun
> technology.  I got offered a job that had a big 401K (makes wall street
> rich) and the potential for a large bonus,  but no health insurance.  I
> mean,  I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?
> > >
> > >     The work I do takes as much training,  skill and independent
> thought as being a doctor,  a lawyer or accountant -- but I don't get
> paid accordingly and I don't get the respect...  For a while I worked
> at a place that hosted a talk by the author of a book called "Leading
> Geeks" -- could anybody get away with writing a book about "Leading
> Niggers?"
> > >
> > >     Connected with the low social status of IT,  there's the whole
> problem of taking orders from people who don't know what's going on...
> There are certainly some counterexamples...  Certainly some places that
> know what time it is,  but there's a reason why so many people feel
> like Dilbert.
> > >  </rant>
> > >
> > >  ===============
> > >
> > >  Generation Five Interactive
> > >  http://gen5.info/q/
> > >
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > >  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > >
> > >  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > >  http://www.nyphpcon.com
> > >
> > >  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > >  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 12:32:38 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:32:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <35759.192.168.1.70.1208447747.webmail@192.168.1.70>
References: <35759.192.168.1.70.1208447747.webmail@192.168.1.70>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804170932w1e87f8ffoe566e5579f8b4a79@mail.gmail.com>

>     I know a lot of 20-somethings who need to make a huge payment every
> month on their student loans...  They're under a lot of pressure to get the
> first job that's "good enough"...  Taking the risk to find "something
> better" could land them in default.

<rant>
As a very recent graduate (2006) I'd like to offer some cheese with that whine.

College costs are made very clear prior enrolling. Nobody is twisting
any prospective student's arm, a huge array of choices are available
to every student. Personally. I went to SUNY Binghamton, lived off
campus for two of my four years (to save money and party hard) and had
a part time job while attending. All told, I ended up with 12K in
loans and payments of $97 dollars a month.

Based on my experience, during my senior year of high school, college
enrollment was just like every other shallow choice teenagers make: I
need a name brand school, I need a school with a big football team, I
need a school in the middle of a major urban center. So, I'm sorry if
I offer no remorse for the Special Ed major with 120K in student
loans, who can't make more than 29K a year. He/she should have spent
more time considering the consequences of their school choice rather
than whether or not they liked the school colors.
</rant>
- jake


From paul at devonianfarm.com  Thu Apr 17 12:47:03 2008
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (paul at devonianfarm.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:47:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?RE:=20[nycphp-talk]=20(no=20subject)?=
Message-ID: <46024.192.168.1.70.1208450823.webmail@192.168.1.70>

From: Jason Scott <JasonS at innovationads.com>










v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}






 

 
  
 






Nope, I think MOST of you are full of sh*t. Unfortunately, such
is the bell curve of life ? 7 out of every ten people fall below the
curve. Two of the three in the upper half are respectable. And then there?s
the one. The one out of every ten who can outperform them all with his or her
eyes closed. That one person is the difference maker. That is the person hiring
managers will pay for. That is who I struggle day in, day out to find.


     And that's the big problem with the IT industry.  An inability to deliver consistent results.

    It's easier to find a good heart surgeon than a good data modeler in my town.  That's because

(i) there's a system for producing heart surgeons,
(ii) heart surgeons get paid well,
(iii) there's a system for certifying heart surgeons,
(iv) heart surgeons have a social status that people take seriously -- they don't have to waste their time justifying themselves with customers, managers,  and co-workers who don't know jack.

    Akerlof won the 2001 Nobel prize in economics for his analysis of the used car market:  a lot like the IT job market.

    Let's say you're hiring a data modeler...  Odds are 7 out of 10 you'll get the kind of guy who doesn't like the relational paradigm,  is afraid of joins,  and leaves behind filemaker databases with one table and 700 columns.  The market value of all data modelers is discounted by the the fact that you'll probably hire a dud -- on the off chance that get a good one,  he's going to get burned out because the people he works with (particularly the 7 out of 10 duds) are going to assume he's a dud and waste half his time justifying himself.

----

    The other angle here is that I'm not enthusiastic about moving to NYC.  NYC and San Francisco are the only two places on earth that I'd consider moving to,  but that would really wreck my personal life,  ties to my extended family and a lot of things that matter to me.  If I knew I was going to get the perfect situation,  it might be one thing,  but odds are 7 out of 10 it will be another bad scene and who wants to deal with that.

    Overconcentration of economic activities in certain areas is one of the problems of the global economy.  I talk to corporate types in the city,  and they think Bangalore is closer than Binghamton.  We've got cities upstate that have excellent an quality of life and a much lower cost of living than the city -- business trips to the city are an hour on the plane or a few hours on the bus.

    How long are you going to keep repeating the things that don't work before you realize you're going at it the wrong way?

  
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Thu Apr 17 13:14:06 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:14:06 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208452446.10898@coral.he.net>

Hey Jake -- SUNY Albany (1985), here -- zero student loans!!! SUNY 
rocks!

(Sorry for one line response but it was substantive! :) )

-- Kristina 

> >     I know a lot of 20-somethings who need to make a huge payment 
every
> > month on their student loans...  They're under a lot of pressure to 
get the
> > first job that's "good enough"...  Taking the risk to 
find "something
> > better" could land them in default.
> 
> <rant>
> As a very recent graduate (2006) I'd like to offer some cheese with 
that whine.
> 
> College costs are made very clear prior enrolling. Nobody is twisting
> any prospective student's arm, a huge array of choices are available
> to every student. Personally. I went to SUNY Binghamton, lived off
> campus for two of my four years (to save money and party hard) and had
> a part time job while attending. All told, I ended up with 12K in
> loans and payments of $97 dollars a month.
> 
> Based on my experience, during my senior year of high school, college
> enrollment was just like every other shallow choice teenagers make: I
> need a name brand school, I need a school with a big football team, I
> need a school in the middle of a major urban center. So, I'm sorry if
> I offer no remorse for the Special Ed major with 120K in student
> loans, who can't make more than 29K a year. He/she should have spent
> more time considering the consequences of their school choice rather
> than whether or not they liked the school colors.
> </rant>
> - jake
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From jbaltz at altzman.com  Thu Apr 17 14:32:41 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:32:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com>
Message-ID: <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-17 09:18 SyAD at aol.com said the following:
> This may have been mentioned already, but maybe the best people out 
> there are independent?

 From just coming off of (and still trying to) hire PHP programmers, I 
have to say that a great many resumes and interviews I've had are with 
people who aren't willing to work on-site; they want to telecommute 
80-90% and work from their apartments in their jammies and slippers.
Best, worst, in-between-est, I can't find someone who wants to work 
full-time.

KDHA: no piping up about where the site is. It's not THAT bad.

> Steve

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Thu Apr 17 15:44:06 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:44:06 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208461446.30827@coral.he.net>

Dr Jerry u know I am svorn to neverrr reveal ze location of ze secret 
laboratoryyyy ;)

> on 2008-04-17 09:18 SyAD at aol.com said the following:
> > This may have been mentioned already, but maybe the best people out 
> > there are independent?
> 
>  From just coming off of (and still trying to) hire PHP programmers, 
I 
> have to say that a great many resumes and interviews I've had are 
with 
> people who aren't willing to work on-site; they want to telecommute 
> 80-90% and work from their apartments in their jammies and slippers.
> Best, worst, in-between-est, I can't find someone who wants to work 
> full-time.
> 
> KDHA: no piping up about where the site is. It's not THAT bad.
> 
> > Steve
> 
> //jbaltz
> -- 
> jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
> thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Thu Apr 17 15:46:42 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:46:42 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>

Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> on 2008-04-17 09:18 SyAD at aol.com said the following:
>> This may have been mentioned already, but maybe the best people out 
>> there are independent?
>
> From just coming off of (and still trying to) hire PHP programmers, I 
> have to say that a great many resumes and interviews I've had are with 
> people who aren't willing to work on-site; they want to telecommute 
> 80-90% and work from their apartments in their jammies and slippers.
> Best, worst, in-between-est, I can't find someone who wants to work 
> full-time.
I'm certainly one of those people, though not in New York.

At the end of the day, I just can't justify spending time on-site very 
often.  I do a lot of work for a boutique development shop, and have a 
desk at the office.  Recently, I've tried to go in at least twice a week 
-- but it gets difficult.  I can do more, better quality, work if I'm in 
a comfortable place with all my toys.  It's only about a 20 minute drive 
to the office, and a pleasant one at that -- but between getting in/out 
of the car and drive time, that's an hour of billable time.  I've often 
fantasized about charging for travel time when someone has demanded 
on-site work when I thought it was not necessary.

Why people insist on on-site work is a bit beyond me.  If you're willing 
to pay well, you should be able to attract capable developers who can be 
trusted to work remotely.  If you want to hire a bunch of juniors to 
churn out hacks all day, and have someone supervise them, then it's 
probably worth it to have them on-site.  But anyone with 5+ years solid 
development experience should be allowed to work how they work best.  
That way, you get the best bang for you buck, IMO.

-Tim



From jbaltz at altzman.com  Thu Apr 17 15:52:16 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:52:16 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-17 15:46 Tim Lieberman said the following:
> Why people insist on on-site work is a bit beyond me.  If you're willing 

Because, well, sometimes hard and fast specs aren't available, and 
working face to face with someone allows better communication.
It's as simple and as profound as that.

> probably worth it to have them on-site.  But anyone with 5+ years solid 
> development experience should be allowed to work how they work best.  
> That way, you get the best bang for you buck, IMO.

That may work well, if there are well-defined tasks and little change. 
With many moving parts, it becomes harder.
Your mileage may vary.

> -Tim

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From codebowl at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 15:57:07 2008
From: codebowl at gmail.com (Joseph Crawford)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:57:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <EE061011-56A3-48F6-ADF7-2775B63D2419@gmail.com>

Tim,

I completely agree with you.   Although it does take a lot of self  
discipline to work from home.  A lot of employers want to make sure  
you are getting the work done and not wasting time sitting at home  
doing nothing.

I personally work from home while they fly me into the office every  
month.  I work near Boston and the company is in MD so it's not all  
that far.

I have always worked from home until this point and any of my  
employers would give me a good reference.

What kills it are the people who think working from home means making  
your own hours, doing what you want when you want and not actually  
looking at it as a real job because the boss cannot see their every  
move.

Joseph Crawford


From JasonS at innovationads.com  Thu Apr 17 15:59:41 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:59:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0F2E@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

As a single developer there isn't much of a reason.

For a development team - needing to coordinate activities and debate designs on whiteboards - on site presence is required. Unless I were to spend lots of money on collaboration and video environments to facilitate a home-based workplace. 

Personally, I'd rather allocate the money I would need to spend on such a setup back into developer salaries, call me crazy. Not to mention that some of the more socially capable developers actually enjoy getting out of the house :-)

And just to keep the "how behind the times are you" comments at bay, every time I've visited Google in Mountainview, Cisco in San Jose, Citrix in Ft Lauderdale, or Microsoft in Redmond, the offices were packed with staff. Cavemen, huh?


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Lieberman
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:47 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> on 2008-04-17 09:18 SyAD at aol.com said the following:
>> This may have been mentioned already, but maybe the best people out 
>> there are independent?
>
> From just coming off of (and still trying to) hire PHP programmers, I 
> have to say that a great many resumes and interviews I've had are with 
> people who aren't willing to work on-site; they want to telecommute 
> 80-90% and work from their apartments in their jammies and slippers.
> Best, worst, in-between-est, I can't find someone who wants to work 
> full-time.
I'm certainly one of those people, though not in New York.

At the end of the day, I just can't justify spending time on-site very 
often.  I do a lot of work for a boutique development shop, and have a 
desk at the office.  Recently, I've tried to go in at least twice a week 
-- but it gets difficult.  I can do more, better quality, work if I'm in 
a comfortable place with all my toys.  It's only about a 20 minute drive 
to the office, and a pleasant one at that -- but between getting in/out 
of the car and drive time, that's an hour of billable time.  I've often 
fantasized about charging for travel time when someone has demanded 
on-site work when I thought it was not necessary.

Why people insist on on-site work is a bit beyond me.  If you're willing 
to pay well, you should be able to attract capable developers who can be 
trusted to work remotely.  If you want to hire a bunch of juniors to 
churn out hacks all day, and have someone supervise them, then it's 
probably worth it to have them on-site.  But anyone with 5+ years solid 
development experience should be allowed to work how they work best.  
That way, you get the best bang for you buck, IMO.

-Tim

_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008 5:34 PM
 

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From codebowl at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 16:05:58 2008
From: codebowl at gmail.com (Joseph Crawford)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:05:58 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <2BE3EF28-C9DB-4AE4-96A4-512996754FE9@gmail.com>

Jerry,

with the days of video conferencing i really do not see the point of  
going in-house for anything.  My employer likes to bring me down here  
so i go with the flow.

Joseph Crawford

On Apr 17, 2008, at 3:52 PM, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> on 2008-04-17 15:46 Tim Lieberman said the following:
>> Why people insist on on-site work is a bit beyond me.  If you're  
>> willing
>
> Because, well, sometimes hard and fast specs aren't available, and  
> working face to face with someone allows better communication.
> It's as simple and as profound as that.
>
>> probably worth it to have them on-site.  But anyone with 5+ years  
>> solid development experience should be allowed to work how they  
>> work best.  That way, you get the best bang for you buck, IMO.
>
> That may work well, if there are well-defined tasks and little  
> change. With many moving parts, it becomes harder.
> Your mileage may vary.
>
>> -Tim
>
> //jbaltz
> -- 
> jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
> thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From jbaltz at altzman.com  Thu Apr 17 16:25:52 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:25:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <2BE3EF28-C9DB-4AE4-96A4-512996754FE9@gmail.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
	<2BE3EF28-C9DB-4AE4-96A4-512996754FE9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4807B250.2040901@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-17 16:05 Joseph Crawford said the following:
> with the days of video conferencing i really do not see the point of 
> going in-house for anything.  My employer likes to bring me down here so 
> i go with the flow.

Well, that's very nice. But not every company *has* video conferencing. 
And sometimes you need more than 15 minutes of conferencing time.

I'm not going to try to convince those of you who are "lone coders" the 
value of a co-located team. I will say that others do NOT feel as you 
do. Strangely enough, sometimes you need more than one person to do the job!

_Peopleware_, my oft-quoted reference, goes to lengths to talk about the 
benefits of "teams" of people working in physical proximity, and the 
positive results coming from that.

I am not saying that telecommuting has its place, only that 
telecommuting is NOT the answer to all problems, and that 
sometimes...you just gotta be there! This is why those folks who 
*demand* 100% telecommuting do not work for me (even if I have one 
special case).

> Joseph Crawford

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From tim_lists at o2group.com  Thu Apr 17 16:31:47 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:31:47 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0F2E@INASREX019350.exmst.local>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com>
	<480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
	<5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0F2E@INASREX019350.exmst.local>
Message-ID: <4807B3B3.1010504@o2group.com>

Jason Scott wrote:
> As a single developer there isn't much of a reason.
>
> For a development team - needing to coordinate activities and debate designs on whiteboards - on site presence is required. Unless I were to spend lots of money on collaboration and video environments to facilitate a home-based workplace. 
>   
I certainly agree that there are times to get together around a 
table/whiteboard.  But unless you've got some kind of intensive "agile" 
thing going on (and working), 20% of the time in the office should be 
more than enough, most of the time, anyway.

I collaborate regularly with several other developers and it's really 
quite amazing what you can do with email, skype , and/or a conference 
bridge on the PBX.
> Personally, I'd rather allocate the money I would need to spend on such a setup back into developer salaries, call me crazy. Not to mention that some of the more socially capable developers actually enjoy getting out of the house :-)
>   
I do enjoy my office days, like I said, I'm trying to get down there at 
least twice a week for a full day of work. 

As for the money, I don't get it.  The overhead on an internet 
connection is less than having to give your dev an office.  I've got a 
little cube when I'm on-site, and it's not too bad, but there are only 
three others in the room.  But once the talking or fixing little things 
is over and it's time to get back to building something non-trivial, I 
wouldn't be able to do my job without an office with a door that 
closes.  Or I can just stay home, where I have just that.
> And just to keep the "how behind the times are you" comments at bay, every time I've visited Google in Mountainview, Cisco in San Jose, Citrix in Ft Lauderdale, or Microsoft in Redmond, the offices were packed with staff. Cavemen, huh?
>   
Most programmers are working for business in industries other than 
software.  If you're doing large-scale application development over a 
range of products involving massive numbers of people, I can see why 
you'd want most everyone on-site.  If you're dealing with less than a 
dozen developers, like 90% of everyone (Yes, I'm pulling that number out 
of the air), telecommuting should be a perfectly manageable and often 
advantageous option.

-Tim





From codebowl at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 16:32:43 2008
From: codebowl at gmail.com (Joseph Crawford)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:32:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4807B250.2040901@altzman.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
	<2BE3EF28-C9DB-4AE4-96A4-512996754FE9@gmail.com>
	<4807B250.2040901@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <3A1A4AFD-98CD-4282-9064-3C2D93481C99@gmail.com>

Jerry,

I agree there are times it would probably be better to be in the  
office, however I am not a lone coder.  I work with a team of 10 other  
developers.  Generally there are 2-3 developers working together on a  
project.  Working from home I still manage to collaborate with them  
just fine.  We use a ticketing system so I know what needs to be done  
when.  If i have questions there is the phone, IM, video etc.

It has been working fine for us so far with me working from home.

I do have to say that not all people can work from home.  It does take  
a lot of discipline to work from home.  There are times I just do not  
want to work and have to force myself to do so.  It is easier to say  
hey i am not working today when you don't have to worry about the boss  
face to face etc.

Joseph Crawford

On Apr 17, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> on 2008-04-17 16:05 Joseph Crawford said the following:
>> with the days of video conferencing i really do not see the point  
>> of going in-house for anything.  My employer likes to bring me down  
>> here so i go with the flow.
>
> Well, that's very nice. But not every company *has* video  
> conferencing. And sometimes you need more than 15 minutes of  
> conferencing time.
>
> I'm not going to try to convince those of you who are "lone coders"  
> the value of a co-located team. I will say that others do NOT feel  
> as you do. Strangely enough, sometimes you need more than one person  
> to do the job!
>
> _Peopleware_, my oft-quoted reference, goes to lengths to talk about  
> the benefits of "teams" of people working in physical proximity, and  
> the positive results coming from that.
>
> I am not saying that telecommuting has its place, only that  
> telecommuting is NOT the answer to all problems, and that  
> sometimes...you just gotta be there! This is why those folks who  
> *demand* 100% telecommuting do not work for me (even if I have one  
> special case).
>
>> Joseph Crawford
>
> //jbaltz
> -- 
> jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
> thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From corey at bmfenterprises.com  Thu Apr 17 16:46:03 2008
From: corey at bmfenterprises.com (Corey Fogarty)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:46:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 18, Issue 38
In-Reply-To: <200804170417.m3H4Hp7S006258@bmfenterprises.com>
Message-ID: <C42D2F4B.5982C%corey@bmfenterprises.com>

Hi again,

I spoke with Keyspan and they assured me the USB to Serial device was
working if I could use the Screen tool.

I asked why I was unable to redirect stdin/stdout to and from the /dev/tty.
device and was told there was no reason I shouldn?t be able to do so.

I have tried:

    #echo ?A? > /dev/ tty.USA28Xb2P1.1

The terminal window just hangs.

I have also tried #chat and #efax with no luck...

Has anyone had any luck with serial port communication from any other shell
scripting language on a unix/linux box?

Thanks!

Corey




> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Serial communication in Mac OS X
> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Message-ID: <C42C2CE7.59796%corey at bmfenterprises.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I am trying to connect to /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 which is a Keyspan USB to
> Serial adapter. I have had success using the screen utility, #screen
> /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 but I would like to use PHP to create a web interface
> to a microcontroller.
> 
> I have attempted fopen with no luck:
> 
>> > $port = "/dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1";
>> > 
>> > $p = fopen($port, 'r+');
>> > $read = fread($p, filesize($port));
>> > fclose($p);
>> > 
>> > echo $read;
>> > 
>> > $p = fopen($port, 'r+');
>> > fwrite($p, "A");
>> > fclose($p);
> 
> I have tried SerProxy but cannot get a connection through telnet. I have
> also tried LibSerial but could only find version 0.5.2 which does not yet
> support PHP apparently... I have read about IOKit but I am not sure it will
> get me where I want to be.
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Corey


-------------- next part --------------
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From JasonS at innovationads.com  Thu Apr 17 16:48:27 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:48:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4807B3B3.1010504@o2group.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com><480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com><5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0F2E@INASREX019350.exmst.local>
	<4807B3B3.1010504@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0F52@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

Well, I can safely say that not a day goes by without an ad hoc design debate springing up, and believe me when I tell you that the folks who are not here for it - well, they miss it. And when we do get home based employees on the phone, we deal with barking dogs, doorbells, screaming children, and lots of chewing. :-) Personally, I like dogs and children, so it makes me smile - but when we have multimillion dollar clients on the phone dealing with a broken app? Not so good.

I am not against working from home, but I believe it works better as the exception, and not the rule, which is the complete opposite of what I'm hearing so far.

Development servers are in house, VPN functionality and speed are no match for the connectivity you get inside the office, most people don't have as well equipped computing infrastructure at home as we do here, they don't have multiline phones and two way speakers, their home pc's crash and it takes them hours if not days to come back to life (whereas in the office we would simply swap in a new pc with a fresh image), and on and on and on...

On the upside, getting used to home based developers is one small step towards getting used to offshoring, which is what we all want at the end of the day anyways, right? ;-) 

Anyone out there who is wondering why offshoring is booming, please read this thread from the beginning.

<audible sigh>


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Lieberman
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 4:32 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

Jason Scott wrote:
> As a single developer there isn't much of a reason.
>
> For a development team - needing to coordinate activities and debate designs on whiteboards - on site presence is required. Unless I were to spend lots of money on collaboration and video environments to facilitate a home-based workplace. 
>   
I certainly agree that there are times to get together around a 
table/whiteboard.  But unless you've got some kind of intensive "agile" 
thing going on (and working), 20% of the time in the office should be 
more than enough, most of the time, anyway.

I collaborate regularly with several other developers and it's really 
quite amazing what you can do with email, skype , and/or a conference 
bridge on the PBX.
> Personally, I'd rather allocate the money I would need to spend on such a setup back into developer salaries, call me crazy. Not to mention that some of the more socially capable developers actually enjoy getting out of the house :-)
>   
I do enjoy my office days, like I said, I'm trying to get down there at 
least twice a week for a full day of work. 

As for the money, I don't get it.  The overhead on an internet 
connection is less than having to give your dev an office.  I've got a 
little cube when I'm on-site, and it's not too bad, but there are only 
three others in the room.  But once the talking or fixing little things 
is over and it's time to get back to building something non-trivial, I 
wouldn't be able to do my job without an office with a door that 
closes.  Or I can just stay home, where I have just that.
> And just to keep the "how behind the times are you" comments at bay, every time I've visited Google in Mountainview, Cisco in San Jose, Citrix in Ft Lauderdale, or Microsoft in Redmond, the offices were packed with staff. Cavemen, huh?
>   
Most programmers are working for business in industries other than 
software.  If you're doing large-scale application development over a 
range of products involving massive numbers of people, I can see why 
you'd want most everyone on-site.  If you're dealing with less than a 
dozen developers, like 90% of everyone (Yes, I'm pulling that number out 
of the air), telecommuting should be a perfectly manageable and often 
advantageous option.

-Tim



_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008 5:34 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008 5:34 PM
 


From jbaltz at altzman.com  Thu Apr 17 17:08:11 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:08:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <3A1A4AFD-98CD-4282-9064-3C2D93481C99@gmail.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
	<2BE3EF28-C9DB-4AE4-96A4-512996754FE9@gmail.com>
	<4807B250.2040901@altzman.com>
	<3A1A4AFD-98CD-4282-9064-3C2D93481C99@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4807BC3B.3090901@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-17 16:32 Joseph Crawford said the following:
> I agree there are times it would probably be better to be in the office, 
> however I am not a lone coder.  I work with a team of 10 other 
> developers.  Generally there are 2-3 developers working together on a 
> project.  Working from home I still manage to collaborate with them just 
> fine.  We use a ticketing system so I know what needs to be done when.  
> If i have questions there is the phone, IM, video etc.

Good for you!

> Joseph Crawford

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From ben at projectskyline.com  Thu Apr 17 17:12:24 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:12:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 18, Issue 38
In-Reply-To: <C42D2F4B.5982C%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
References: <C42D2F4B.5982C%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
Message-ID: <4807BD38.80305@projectskyline.com>

Hello Corey,

Did you try running sudo <command>

Maybe you need root to write to serial...

- Ben

Corey Fogarty wrote:
> Hi again,
>
> I spoke with Keyspan and they assured me the USB to Serial device was 
> working if I could use the Screen tool.
>
> I asked why I was unable to redirect stdin/stdout to and from the 
> /dev/tty. device and was told there was no reason I shouldn?t be able 
> to do so.
>
> I have tried:
>
> #echo ?A? > /dev/ tty.USA28Xb2P1.1
>
> The terminal window just hangs.
>
> I have also tried #chat and #efax with no luck...
>
> Has anyone had any luck with serial port communication from any other 
> shell scripting language on a unix/linux box?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Corey
>
>
>
>
>     Subject: [nycphp-talk] Serial communication in Mac OS X
>     To: <_talk at lists.nyphp.org_>
>     Message-ID: <_C42C2CE7.59796%corey at bmfenterprises.com_>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>     Hi All,
>
>     I am trying to connect to /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 which is a Keyspan
>     USB to
>     Serial adapter. I have had success using the screen utility, #screen
>     /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 but I would like to use PHP to create a web
>     interface
>     to a microcontroller.
>
>     I have attempted fopen with no luck:
>
>     > $port = "/dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1";
>     >
>     > $p = fopen($port, 'r+');
>     > $read = fread($p, filesize($port));
>     > fclose($p);
>     >
>     > echo $read;
>     >
>     > $p = fopen($port, 'r+');
>     > fwrite($p, "A");
>     > fclose($p);
>
>     I have tried SerProxy but cannot get a connection through telnet.
>     I have
>     also tried LibSerial but could only find version 0.5.2 which does
>     not yet
>     support PHP apparently... I have read about IOKit but I am not
>     sure it will
>     get me where I want to be.
>
>     Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>     Thank you!
>
>     Corey
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php


From rolan at omnistep.com  Thu Apr 17 17:41:28 2008
From: rolan at omnistep.com (Rolan Yang)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:41:28 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Serial communication in Mac OS X
In-Reply-To: <C42C2CE7.59796%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
References: <C42C2CE7.59796%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
Message-ID: <4807C408.5040409@omnistep.com>


Corey Fogarty wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am trying to connect to /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 which is a Keyspan USB 
> to Serial adapter. I have had success using the screen utility, 
> #screen /dev/tty.USA28Xb2P1.1 but I would like to use PHP to create a 
> web interface to a microcontroller.
>

Hi Cory,

With what device are you trying to communicate?  I log the status and 
usage of my gas furnace with a small photocell wired to a A-D converter 
board which outputs RS232 to a Serial->USB converter then to my "server 
in the closet", which stores all the data to MySQL through a php script. 
The serial to usb converter, I believe, uses the "Prolific" chipset.  I 
also had some trouble speaking directly to the serial port. In the end, 
I gave up and just wrote a C program to grab the data and output to 
stdout. The PHP script captured data continuously with a:

<?php
while (1) {
$data=trim(`./checkfurnace 20 1 1`);
// write to sqldb
sleep(9);
}
?>

I also have a Lacrosse weather station on the roof that sends data 
through a serial cable -> USB converter -> the same server in the 
closet, and it logs data the same way.

Good luck. How are those robots coming along?

~Rolan









From corey at bmfenterprises.com  Thu Apr 17 18:24:19 2008
From: corey at bmfenterprises.com (Corey Fogarty)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:24:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 18, Issue 38
In-Reply-To: <200804170417.m3H4Hp7S006258@bmfenterprises.com>
Message-ID: <C42D4653.5983E%corey@bmfenterprises.com>

Hi Ben,

I would be very interested in talking with you. I am trying to move from a
VB front end to my home built robotics application to something web driven
and running on a Mac. I am just much more familiar with PHP then VB or Java.

What type of robotics app are you working on?





> Hello Corey,
> 
> This doesn't really answer your question, but I've recently been doing
> java serial work on osx for some robotics stuff.
> Take a look at http://rxtx.qbang.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
> 
> Sorry I dont have more specific php info.
> 
> - Ben


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From corey at bmfenterprises.com  Thu Apr 17 18:36:50 2008
From: corey at bmfenterprises.com (Corey Fogarty)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:36:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Serial communication in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <C42D4942.59841%corey@bmfenterprises.com>

Hi Ben,

Yup, tried sudo. I still get a hang...

How complex would it be for me to implement the Java you are working on... I
cant believe there isn?t a Unix command line serial communication system
that just accepts arguments and spews them across the serial port... Course
I guess it isn?t all that easy. There would have to be a buffer for incoming
as well...

Thank you for your help!

Corey

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From ben at projectskyline.com  Thu Apr 17 20:10:04 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:10:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Serial communication in Mac OS X
In-Reply-To: <C42D4942.59841%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
References: <C42D4942.59841%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
Message-ID: <4807E6DC.6060704@projectskyline.com>

Hey Corey,

The robotics application I'm working on is a SRV1 from trossenrobotics. 
It's a really neat little device.
I actually DONT use the serial stuff now that I have wifi working, I 
know use that to communicate w/the device.

The RXTX link I provided has decent information on using the Java Serial 
Classes.

I didn't write this application, I'm just making alterations to the open 
source console java application for the SRV1.
We could chat off list and I'd be more than happy to offer any help.

Rolan's comments about making a C program is probably your best bet. C 
will be able to do that no problem.

- Ben

I also did some programming for a hardware RFID reader from 
TrossenRobotics as well. Did that in C, which
then calls system("whatever.php") and does the db processing, etc; 
Sometimes you just can't get it done in php... = ]


Corey Fogarty wrote:
> Hi Ben,
>
> Yup, tried sudo. I still get a hang...
>
> How complex would it be for me to implement the Java you are working 
> on... I cant believe there isn?t a Unix command line serial 
> communication system that just accepts arguments and spews them across 
> the serial port... Course I guess it isn?t all that easy. There would 
> have to be a buffer for incoming as well...
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> Corey
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php


From SyAD at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 10:12:26 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:12:26 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <be4.2cd9230a.353a064a@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/17/2008 10:10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ramons at gmx.net writes:

SyAD at aol.com wrote:
> David, I'm shocked that a CS MS would require anything outside of the 
> field, that seems very odd to me.  Maybe things have changed since the 
> *cough, cough* years since I got my Bachelor's, but even when I was 
> getting my Bachelor's (Mechanics and Materials Science, essentially 
> Mechanical Engineering, from Hopkins), the non-major requirements 
> (credits for liberal arts, natural science, etc) were down around 20 
> credits or less, and if you were clever, you could find courses that 
> were useful.  The liberal arts requirement as I remember consisted of 
> one year-long course -- I took Russian for that.

And that is my point. As mentioned in other emails, the BSEE program I 
randomly picked as it was one of the top results from Google asked for a 
total 
of 132 credits and from those 60 credits that were basically labeled as 
non-major courses, so that is about half of all course work required. I know 
that this differs from school to school, but as mentioned I attended a 
university that asked for 150 credits on-major course work, yet I got the 
same 
BSEE degree. But am I that wrong in thinking that I got a better engineering 
education?
Engineering degrees in the US have a very broad range -- although, again, 
this may have changed, my knowledge is pretty old.  At Hopkins when I went there, 
it was pretty theoretical, if you wanted lab work you'd look around and get 
in on projects with professors, maybe get independent studies credits.  But at 
places like Drexel or Georgia Tech, it might be much more hands-on engineering 
work in the classes -- I think Drexel had mandated apprenticeship programs, 
you had to do a year with a company.
 
Maybe in Germany degree accreditation is more regulated or standardized.  
Here in the States, it's not just the degree but where you got it that matters.  
Actually a knowledgable recruiter should check out the transcript thoroughly 
as well.
 


In the MS program things were mainly on-topic, but for a good part on such a 
basic level that I wondered if I registered for the right course. I epxected 
it to be intelectually challanging, not just a lot of work. One course was 
about e-business, the book was of horrible quality and the course wasn't much 
better. The recurring task was to read 50 pages and then write a ten page 
paper about it. And that week after week. We did have to do a project as well 
and I did a PHP script that took entries from an HTML form and writes them to 
a file. The script and pages were for submitting support tickets for 
software. 
I never created an HTML page before nor did I have any good relation with 
programming. I came to the conclusion that programming hates me and that I 
hate programming, which is why I chose to do a programming project. That was 
the only tough task in that course and only because I chose to make it 
difficult.
My impression was that the department wanted to make the courses easy and 
fluffy on purpose so that many students pass and graduate, which boosts the 
numbers on paper and makes the university look good.

> On the other hand, in-major course requirements weren't that onerous 
> either, so I could take Electrical Engineering, Economics and Math 
> Sciences (Optimization, Stats) to, in a sense, design my own major.

One other thing I find silly is the constant hand holding at US universities 
with advisors and mandatory meetings. I found that to be disturbing that the 
school considers me to be that limited in my capabilities to sign up for the 
mandatory courses and pick from those that are in the "Other" bucket. Once 
done I register for the thesis and at that point someone checks if I passed 
all the required course work. I found that having an advisor assigned to me 
was make work for both me and her.
So did you end up designing your major or did you have to sit down with 
someone for hours debating why this course is better than that course?
I think I had to talk to my advisor twice, once when I wanted to take 23 
credits one semester (the standard was 15) and then when I wanted to take a course 
that I didn't have the prerequisites for.  Both happened freshman year -- I 
never even saw him again after that.


David
_______________________________________________
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From SyAD at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 10:24:17 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:24:17 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <d4b.28fcc0bc.353a0911@aol.com>

 
Oh yeah -- I'm sure a lot of independents comtemplate that, that being 
independent may deprive one of a large infrastructure, more money, big complex 
projects, that independents may not get access to.
 
My comment was that perhaps it's sort of genetic -- that maybe the 
personality that drives one to be independent may be correlated with the skill set you 
seek.
 
It's an unproved generalization of course.
 
Steve
 
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 9:30:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JasonS at innovationads.com writes:

 
Yes, but maybe the best opportunities are not available to independents? Just 
a thought 
 
Jason Scott | Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor, New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext 226 | Fax: 866-797-0971
_innovationads.com _ (http://www.innovationads.com/) 
 
 
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On 
Behalf Of SyAD at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:18 AM
To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

 
 
This may have been mentioned already, but maybe the best people out there are 
independent?
 

 
Steve
 

 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 7:38:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JasonS at innovationads.com writes:

Ok, so with all this talk, and everyone wanting to make some money, why can't 
I get a decent resume across my desk?!

I am offering - imo - perhaps the best and most challenging work environment 
I've seen since I got to NY, and the only people who are handing me decent 
resumes are recruiters who are looking to earn 20 pct of YOUR salaries...

If any of you are the real deal - from QA to dev or anywhere in between - 
please, please give me a call or shoot me an email offline? 

And if you're not interested, then please stop asking the world why you can't 
seem to make a decent living - right here, right now, I can state matter of 
fact that I can offer that tomorrow to one or two of you, no problem, as long - 
as Tom says - you, youself, are truly worth it.

And believe it or not, assuming I'm not alone in this, hiring managers are 
possibly more frustrated than you all are! There are a lot more true employment 
opporunities out there than there are truly talented programmers to fill them!

Digest that :-)

Good debate, though, overall...I'm enjoying the read

Jason Scott | Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor, New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext 226 | Fax: 866-797-0971
innovationads.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On 
Behalf Of David Krings
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:12 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Tom -- 
> 
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K.  The average attorney in 
> business for themselves makes about the same.  The average CPA, about 
> 150K.  The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than 
> we do.
> 
> The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary?  (I'm self 
> employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty 
> constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K 
> barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> 
> And you don't feel this is an ISSUE?  You don't honestly feel that the 
> social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of 
> us are underpaid?
> 
> Come on, work with us.  
> 

Gee, as a QA specialist / lead I get not even the 80k. So why should a 
developer get that much money? Developers make software so that QA can test 
it. For that QA should get paid more than developers. And even more, support 
covers the butts of QA which covered the butts of the developers and yet 
support gets paid crap compared to even a QA guy. I think developers are 
already overvalued, but the same applies to doctors (although depends, the 
PCP 
that gets called in the middle of the night deserves good pay) and lawyers. I 
also think that the front desk person deserves the highest pay, same applies 
to administrative assistance. While the big wigs play golf these fine people 
keep a business running. I know that from first hand experience. I worked at 
a 
place where among others the receptionist got laid off. After a week all hell 
broke loose. No office supplies, the water company did not get paid (neither 
did the electric and gas companies, or anyone else), customers left hundreds 
of messages and ran over to the competition because nobody bothered to 
reroute 
the phone lines or shut off the email accounts. And I am sure that everything 
will work fine if all the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies get laid off. And 
some companies do that. When I started working at Henkel in Germany for the 
first time they had 27 layers of management. When I worked there the last 
time 
they were down to less than a dozen. Stuff got done the same as before, but 
without spending millions on chair farters.

But no matter who you ask, that person always makes not enough money. Ask 
A-Rod and I am sure that he would love to get paid even more. They are all 
whiners, just look at that multi-billionaire who lost big in that Bear 
Stearns 
deal. OK, he lost about a billion bucks, but he still has 4 billion left! 
Even 
he is whining and feels cheated.

Honestly, I would be the happiest person on earth if I could make anything 
close to 80k. I think that is plenty awesome money for a 9ish to 5ish job. 
I'd 
be happy with even 70k. Not to say that I am grossly underpaid at the moment. 
Pay is OK, feeds the family and secures a home and then a bit is even left. 
But with even more money, I guess we'd just spend it all and then what, 
complain again it is not enough. We are quite spoiled, there are many who 
have 
to get by on 30k and no benefits. How can one work full time and not even 
have 
decent health insurance? Now those are the folks that have a right to 
complain!

David
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From tedd at sperling.com  Fri Apr 18 10:25:19 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:25:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <p06240804c42e5b12167e@[192.168.1.101]>

At 1:46 PM -0600 4/17/08, Tim Lieberman wrote:
>Why people insist on on-site work is a bit beyond me.  If you're 
>willing to pay well, you should be able to attract capable 
>developers who can be trusted to work remotely.  If you want to hire 
>a bunch of juniors to churn out hacks all day, and have someone 
>supervise them, then it's probably worth it to have them on-site. 
>But anyone with 5+ years solid development experience should be 
>allowed to work how they work best.  That way, you get the best bang 
>for you buck, IMO.

Ain't that the truth!

The product here is net-ware -- it's 100% digital and 100% accessible 
by the world. Why anyone would want their product to be created at 
some physical place is beyond me.

Perhaps it's the suit types who think that if they don't have an 
employee under their thumb, the employee would goof-off like they 
would if they had the chance -- I don't know. But typically, us geek 
types like doing what we do and if left alone, we do it pretty well. 
This stuff is both my livelihood and my passion. If I'm not being 
paid for it -- I do it anyway (except for myself).

I've worked for myself for decades. Sure, I've been offered numerous 
positions and have even considered a few, but two things happen 
during the interview: 1) They want me to work on their windoze 
machines, which I refuse to do -- I have my own system, a Mac, thank 
you; 2) Once they find out I'm disabled, things change. Sure, one can 
carry on about the ADA, but that's a bunch of nonsense that just 
keeps government types employed. All business has to say is "I'm 
sorry, but you wouldn't pass our health screening. And please don't 
let the door hit your ass on the way out." But, that's topic for 
another day.

The point being, our product is digital and as such should be allowed 
to be created anywhere.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From urb at e-government.com  Fri Apr 18 10:26:42 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:26:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <be4.2cd9230a.353a064a@aol.com>
References: <be4.2cd9230a.353a064a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418102154.02a15880@e-government.com>


>And that is my point. As mentioned in other emails, the BSEE program I
>randomly picked as it was one of the top results from Google asked 
>for a total
>of 132 credits and from those 60 credits that were basically labeled as
>non-major courses, so that is about half of all course work required. I know
>that this differs from school to school, but as mentioned I attended a
>university that asked for 150 credits on-major course work, yet I 
>got the same
>BSEE degree. But am I that wrong in thinking that I got a better engineering
>education?

         You may be comparing apples and oranges. Some schools use 
quarter semesters
which are 12 week semesters. The most common are 16 week semesters. So 150
quarter hours would be equivalent to 112 semester hours.

         You mentioned Drexal, I believe they use quarter hours.




Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
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From tedd at sperling.com  Fri Apr 18 10:38:00 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:38:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <p06240806c42e61fcb534@[192.168.1.101]>

>on 2008-04-17 15:46 Tim Lieberman said the following:
>>Why people insist on on-site work is a bit beyond me.  If you're willing
>
>Because, well, sometimes hard and fast specs aren't available, and 
>working face to face with someone allows better communication.
>It's as simple and as profound as that.

It may allow quicker communication, but that can be handled by telephone.

What I don't like about quicker communication is there is no record 
of what was said -- but that's not a problem in email.

You want me to work for you, simply tell me what you want. That 
communication not only defines the project, but get the client to 
think it terms of what's important to them.

>>probably worth it to have them on-site.  But anyone with 5+ years 
>>solid development experience should be allowed to work how they 
>>work best.  That way, you get the best bang for you buck, IMO.
>
>That may work well, if there are well-defined tasks and little 
>change. With many moving parts, it becomes harder.
>Your mileage may vary.

My mileage does vary. I have worked on numerous projects that have 
moving parts -- in fact, they all do. But written communication 
better defines what the needs are -- and -- they come with a time 
stamp.

The net is a different critter for product development and distribution.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From SyAD at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 10:40:12 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:40:12 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <c34.2e903d34.353a0ccc@aol.com>

 
Yeah, the IT culture is a lot different, and I guess business culture is 
still trying to fit IT into their standard model.
 
It's too bad in a way -- the beauty of not working in a 9-5 workplace is that 
independents are often available for a lot more hours.  I'm basically 
available from 9am to about 11pm most days.  I don't waste time commuting.  I do 
conference calls, Glance sessions etc.  If I have to do something that could 
affect operations, I can do it after hours, and it doesn't seem like a burden to me.
 
In a way, I don't get the on-site thing even for big companies.  I was doing 
some work for a very large company a few months back, and we were doing 
conference calls with the manager in NYC, IT in Oklahoma, and a vendor in Boston.
 
Part of it is logic too, for a developer.  It seems much more efficient to 
create your own work environment rather than sitting in a noisy bunch of 
cubicles.  It's all the same work -- let's talk on the phone or even go on-site for 
specs and requirements, and then let me go off and do the work.
 
Well, it's almost 11am -- time to get a shower.  ;)
 
Steve
 
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 2:34:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jbaltz at altzman.com writes:

on 2008-04-17 09:18 SyAD at aol.com said the following:
> This may have been mentioned already, but maybe the best people out 
> there are independent?

>From just coming off of (and still trying to) hire PHP programmers, I 
have to say that a great many resumes and interviews I've had are with 
people who aren't willing to work on-site; they want to telecommute 
80-90% and work from their apartments in their jammies and slippers.
Best, worst, in-between-est, I can't find someone who wants to work 
full-time.

KDHA: no piping up about where the site is. It's not THAT bad.

> Steve

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
_______________________________________________
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From JasonS at innovationads.com  Fri Apr 18 10:46:10 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:46:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <p06240804c42e5b12167e@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com>
	<480797C9.7050509@altzman.com><4807A922.9070206@o2group.com>
	<p06240804c42e5b12167e@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A1081@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

Suit types? Geek types? Windoze vs Mac? Discrimination?

I think it is time for my involvement in this thread to end :-) Either that or my head is going to explode.

Jason Scott |?Chief Information Officer

233 Broadway, 21st Floor,?New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext?226?|?Fax: 866-797-0971
???????? innovationads.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of tedd
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 10:25 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

At 1:46 PM -0600 4/17/08, Tim Lieberman wrote:
>Why people insist on on-site work is a bit beyond me.  If you're 
>willing to pay well, you should be able to attract capable 
>developers who can be trusted to work remotely.  If you want to hire 
>a bunch of juniors to churn out hacks all day, and have someone 
>supervise them, then it's probably worth it to have them on-site. 
>But anyone with 5+ years solid development experience should be 
>allowed to work how they work best.  That way, you get the best bang 
>for you buck, IMO.

Ain't that the truth!

The product here is net-ware -- it's 100% digital and 100% accessible 
by the world. Why anyone would want their product to be created at 
some physical place is beyond me.

Perhaps it's the suit types who think that if they don't have an 
employee under their thumb, the employee would goof-off like they 
would if they had the chance -- I don't know. But typically, us geek 
types like doing what we do and if left alone, we do it pretty well. 
This stuff is both my livelihood and my passion. If I'm not being 
paid for it -- I do it anyway (except for myself).

I've worked for myself for decades. Sure, I've been offered numerous 
positions and have even considered a few, but two things happen 
during the interview: 1) They want me to work on their windoze 
machines, which I refuse to do -- I have my own system, a Mac, thank 
you; 2) Once they find out I'm disabled, things change. Sure, one can 
carry on about the ADA, but that's a bunch of nonsense that just 
keeps government types employed. All business has to say is "I'm 
sorry, but you wouldn't pass our health screening. And please don't 
let the door hit your ass on the way out." But, that's topic for 
another day.

The point being, our product is digital and as such should be allowed 
to be created anywhere.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
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From SyAD at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 10:50:28 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:50:28 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <cf2.2e4c38a7.353a0f34@aol.com>

 
Maybe I'm being jingoistic, but I really feel that there's an "umph" that 
developers in the US have that isn't as readily available elsewhere.
 
Cue The Star Spangled Banner!!
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 4:50:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JasonS at innovationads.com writes:

On the upside, getting used to home based developers is one small step 
towards getting used to offshoring, which is what we all want at the end of the day 
anyways, right? ;-) 

Anyone out there who is wondering why offshoring is booming, please read this 
thread from the beginning.

<audible sigh>






**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
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From scott.trudeau at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 10:57:49 2008
From: scott.trudeau at gmail.com (Scott Trudeau)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:57:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <cf2.2e4c38a7.353a0f34@aol.com>
References: <cf2.2e4c38a7.353a0f34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5ea6d84e0804180757w1bbd2e59rd50facf958dd38f1@mail.gmail.com>

Relevant article:

"Why your boss doesn't want you to telework" - Web Worker Daily

http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/


On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 10:50 AM, <SyAD at aol.com> wrote:

>  Maybe I'm being jingoistic, but I really feel that there's an "umph" that
> developers in the US have that isn't as readily available elsewhere.
>
> Cue The Star Spangled Banner!!
>
> In a message dated 4/17/2008 4:50:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> JasonS at innovationads.com writes:
>
> On the upside, getting used to home based developers is one small step
> towards getting used to offshoring, which is what we all want at the end of
> the day anyways, right? ;-)
>
> Anyone out there who is wondering why offshoring is booming, please read
> this thread from the beginning.
>
> <audible sigh>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL
> Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851>.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
--
Scott Trudeau
scott.trudeau AT gmail DOT com
http://sstrudeau.com/
AIM: sodthestreets
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From tedd at sperling.com  Fri Apr 18 11:00:32 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:00:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0F52@INASREX019350.exmst.local>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com><480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com><5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0F2E@IN
	ASREX019350.exmst.local>	<4807B3B3.1010504@o2group.com>
	<5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A0F52@INASREX019350.exmst.local>
Message-ID: <p06240807c42e63b11bc6@[192.168.1.101]>

At 4:48 PM -0400 4/17/08, Jason Scott wrote:
>I am not against working from home, but I believe it works better as 
>the exception, and not the rule, which is the complete opposite of 
>what I'm hearing so far.

The digital nature of the work is changing the work ethic.

For the exception of discussions like this, I work. I spend 10-14 
hours a day writing code. My clients never have to wait for anything. 
My work is done on time and per the cost agreed beforehand. My repeat 
business keeps me busy enough that I don't have to look for any 
additional work. In fact, I often turn work away.

For me, it's not a question of "Why won't employers hire me to work 
at home?" but rather I have enough work that I don't understand why 
more businesses don't hire digital employees? From my perspective, 
it's a win-win for all.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From JasonS at innovationads.com  Fri Apr 18 11:13:40 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:13:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <597501c8a166$c1c33184$3a2cd23f@EXMST.LOCAL>

Written by a telecommuter...and complete crap

As a real life CIO, and not the fictional "suit" manager - you know, the kind that "can't understand true technology" - please know that nothing at all mentioned in that article even comes close to the reasons I like my developers to be here.

For those of you who are looking to make  couple hundred grand a year doing what you love, please stop grouping together with people in the same situation, and maybe - just maybe - start taking some advice from the people who can actually make it happen

(another audible sigh) 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Scott Trudeau" <scott.trudeau at gmail.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: 4/18/2008 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks


Relevant article:

"Why your boss doesn't want you to telework" - Web Worker Daily

HYPERLINK "http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/"http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/



On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 10:50 AM, <HYPERLINK "mailto:SyAD at aol.com"SyAD at aol.com> wrote:


Maybe I'm being jingoistic, but I really feel that there's an "umph" that developers in the US have that isn't as readily available elsewhere.
 
Cue The Star Spangled Banner!!
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 4:50:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HYPERLINK "mailto:JasonS at innovationads.com" \nJasonS at innovationads.com writes:


On the upside, getting used to home based developers is one small step towards getting used to offshoring, which is what we all want at the end of the day anyways, right? ;-) 


Anyone out there who is wondering why offshoring is booming, please read this thread from the beginning.

<audible sigh>







   _____  

Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at HYPERLINK "http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851" \nAOL Autos.

_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
HYPERLINK "http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk" \nhttp://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
HYPERLINK "http://www.nyphpcon.com" \nhttp://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
HYPERLINK "http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php" \nhttp://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php





-- 
--
Scott Trudeau
scott.trudeau AT gmail DOT com
HYPERLINK "http://sstrudeau.com/"http://sstrudeau.com/
AIM: sodthestreets 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1384 - Release Date: 4/17/2008 3:47 PM
 
  


From paul at devonianfarm.com  Fri Apr 18 11:13:50 2008
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (paul at devonianfarm.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:13:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <38846.192.168.1.70.1208531630.webmail@192.168.1.70>

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Trudeau <scott.trudeau at gmail.com>

Relevant article:

"Why your boss doesn't want you to telework" - Web Worker Daily

[http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/] http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/

-------------------

    Personally I like going to a some place to work.  When I'm working at home I never know when my work life end and personal life starts.  I like having co-workers.  It's REALLY rough working at home if you're the parent of a young child,  like me.

    For the last few years I've teleworked maybe one day a month,  except for a very little bit of moonlighting.

    The quality of telework can vary a lot.  I know people who've been great teleworkers,  and some who've been a disaster.  I knew one guy who was working on two projects who teleworked for a month,  was very evasive,  and didn't check in a thing into version control in a month of working on my project...  told me he was busy with the other project...  for all I know he told the other guys he was busy on my project.

    I've had very productive days teleworking,  but I often end up doing it when there's a child care glitch,  which means I end up playing a lot of Mario 64, building domino tracks and exploring the creeks on our land.

    I think you see a lot of teleworkers begging for work since they have a harder time getting it and so they have to send out more resumes -- the # of resumes isn't necessarily representative of what fraction of the workforce wants to do.

==========

    I think people in the city have a particular problem of provincialism.  There are a lot of people who'd like to benefit from the economic dynamism of the city who don't want to live there,  or in it's immediate suburbs.  There are things about living in NYC that are unique and wonderful,  but it's not the lifestyle that most Americans want.

    I think of the "New Yorker" cartoon that shows the distorted picture of the world that people in New York have -- upstate New York just isn't in the NYC mental map.  I think New York companies could benefit by establishing satellite offices in upstate cities where the cost of doing business is a fraction of what it is in the city.  They could benefit by forming relationships with contractors within a 300-mile radius,  but it's not an easy sell.





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From brian at realm3.com  Fri Apr 18 11:32:49 2008
From: brian at realm3.com (Brian D.)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:32:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <597501c8a166$c1c33184$3a2cd23f@EXMST.LOCAL>
References: <597501c8a166$c1c33184$3a2cd23f@EXMST.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <c7c53eda0804180832x49ccfff8j447833b99e411f7c@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with you about the WWD article, Jason, and I'm actually not a
CIO or upper management.

I telecommuted for a company out of state for a year, and then quit
because I could see that it simply wasn't going to work out. I agree
that you need some face-to-face time to iron out specs.

However, on the other hand, I find it highly unnecessary to be on-site
100% of the time. Do you think that there is some sort of a compromise
in this area, or do you see it black & white: you're on or you're off?

I'm just curious about what you think on this.

As a side note, I've been flying solo since Jan. '07, and I find that
most of my clients chose me because I *can* work on-site here in NYC.
I don't do this 100% of the time, but I find that some face-time is
absolutely necessary for most business people. As a business person
myself, I completely understand that. You want to see where your money
is going.

- B. D.

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Jason Scott <JasonS at innovationads.com> wrote:
> Written by a telecommuter...and complete crap
>
>  As a real life CIO, and not the fictional "suit" manager - you know, the kind that "can't understand true technology" - please know that nothing at all mentioned in that article even comes close to the reasons I like my developers to be here.
>
>  For those of you who are looking to make  couple hundred grand a year doing what you love, please stop grouping together with people in the same situation, and maybe - just maybe - start taking some advice from the people who can actually make it happen
>
>  (another audible sigh)
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: "Scott Trudeau" <scott.trudeau at gmail.com>
>  To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>  Sent: 4/18/2008 10:59 AM
>  Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
>
>
>
> Relevant article:
>
>  "Why your boss doesn't want you to telework" - Web Worker Daily
>
>  HYPERLINK "http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/"http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/
>
>
>
>  [snip]

-- 
realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
freelance consulting, application development
(917) 512-3594


From JasonS at innovationads.com  Fri Apr 18 11:39:59 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:39:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <598301c8a16a$728e0450$3a2cd23f@EXMST.LOCAL>

Good question :-)

I actually have one full time - and very valuable - employee working completely from home, in FL nonetheless. I have a graphic designer working full time from Croatia. Both are important to the company, neither is part of a team.

For the dev group - which is where my heart lies - they are all here with me every day.

Now, if one gets sick, or as mentioned ealier has a child care issue, or a broken car, or simply can't bear the thought of commuting on a given day, I am totally fine with them working from home.

Like I said in a previous post, the exception, not the rule 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Brian D." <brian at realm3.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: 4/18/2008 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

I agree with you about the WWD article, Jason, and I'm actually not a
CIO or upper management.

I telecommuted for a company out of state for a year, and then quit
because I could see that it simply wasn't going to work out. I agree
that you need some face-to-face time to iron out specs.

However, on the other hand, I find it highly unnecessary to be on-site
100% of the time. Do you think that there is some sort of a compromise
in this area, or do you see it black & white: you're on or you're off?

I'm just curious about what you think on this.

As a side note, I've been flying solo since Jan. '07, and I find that
most of my clients chose me because I *can* work on-site here in NYC.
I don't do this 100% of the time, but I find that some face-time is
absolutely necessary for most business people. As a business person
myself, I completely understand that. You want to see where your money
is going.

- B. D.

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Jason Scott <JasonS at innovationads.com> wrote:
> Written by a telecommuter...and complete crap
>
>  As a real life CIO, and not the fictional "suit" manager - you know, the kind that "can't understand true technology" - please know that nothing at all mentioned in that article even comes close to the reasons I like my developers to be here.
>
>  For those of you who are looking to make  couple hundred grand a year doing what you love, please stop grouping together with people in the same situation, and maybe - just maybe - start taking some advice from the people who can actually make it happen
>
>  (another audible sigh)
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: "Scott Trudeau" <scott.trudeau at gmail.com>
>  To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>  Sent: 4/18/2008 10:59 AM
>  Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
>
>
>
> Relevant article:
>
>  "Why your boss doesn't want you to telework" - Web Worker Daily
>
>  HYPERLINK "http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/"http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/
>
>
>
>  [snip]

-- 
realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
freelance consulting, application development
(917) 512-3594
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1384 - Release Date: 4/17/2008 3:47 PM
 


From SyAD at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 11:50:28 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:50:28 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <c04.34407bef.353a1d44@aol.com>

 
I think there shouldn't be a general rule -- or maybe it's correlated with 
the size of the system and the level of specialization desired.  I assume a lot 
of independents are catering to small and medium-sized businesses.
 
Maybe it's apples and oranges.  It's actually kind of nice that the various 
options are available, to accommodate the broad range of personalities that 
exist.
 
Steve
 
In a message dated 4/18/2008 11:42:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JasonS at innovationads.com writes:

Good question :-)

I actually have one full time - and very valuable - employee working 
completely from home, in FL nonetheless. I have a graphic designer working full time 
from Croatia. Both are important to the company, neither is part of a team.

For the dev group - which is where my heart lies - they are all here with me 
every day.

Now, if one gets sick, or as mentioned ealier has a child care issue, or a 
broken car, or simply can't bear the thought of commuting on a given day, I am 
totally fine with them working from home.

Like I said in a previous post, the exception, not the rule 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Brian D." <brian at realm3.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: 4/18/2008 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks

I agree with you about the WWD article, Jason, and I'm actually not a
CIO or upper management.

I telecommuted for a company out of state for a year, and then quit
because I could see that it simply wasn't going to work out. I agree
that you need some face-to-face time to iron out specs.

However, on the other hand, I find it highly unnecessary to be on-site
100% of the time. Do you think that there is some sort of a compromise
in this area, or do you see it black & white: you're on or you're off?

I'm just curious about what you think on this.

As a side note, I've been flying solo since Jan. '07, and I find that
most of my clients chose me because I *can* work on-site here in NYC.
I don't do this 100% of the time, but I find that some face-time is
absolutely necessary for most business people. As a business person
myself, I completely understand that. You want to see where your money
is going.

- B. D.

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Jason Scott <JasonS at innovationads.com> 
wrote:
> Written by a telecommuter...and complete crap
>
>  As a real life CIO, and not the fictional "suit" manager - you know, the 
kind that "can't understand true technology" - please know that nothing at all 
mentioned in that article even comes close to the reasons I like my developers 
to be here.
>
>  For those of you who are looking to make  couple hundred grand a year 
doing what you love, please stop grouping together with people in the same 
situation, and maybe - just maybe - start taking some advice from the people who can 
actually make it happen
>
>  (another audible sigh)
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: "Scott Trudeau" <scott.trudeau at gmail.com>
>  To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>  Sent: 4/18/2008 10:59 AM
>  Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
>
>
>
> Relevant article:
>
>  "Why your boss doesn't want you to telework" - Web Worker Daily
>
>  HYPERLINK 
"http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want-you-to-telework/"http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/04/10/why-your-boss-doesnt-want
-you-to-telework/
>
>
>
>  [snip]

-- 
realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
freelance consulting, application development
(917) 512-3594
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From david at davidmintz.org  Fri Apr 18 11:56:28 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:56:28 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT?] inconsistent html email display
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804180856j4f61483fp56a17af7197ba170@mail.gmail.com>

Hey everybody

My script builds and sends and HTML email using Zend_Mail. The resulting
email shows up fine in some email clients but not others. On gmail and
Thunderbird it's fine. On Yahoo! email it doesn't (for some browsers,
apparently). The body contains a bi-columnar HTML table, as in label =>
value. In some clients (some), the labels are there, but the values appear
empty. When you examine the source, however, the values are right there!
They are just not displaying. I have run the output through validator.w3.org,
and it is valid xhtml transitional.

I had a user complain that the data column was empty on Yahoo! with IE 7.
She forwards the offending message to my own Yahoo, and it displays (in
Firefox 2).

It is the weirdest damn thing I have encountered in a while. I can't figure
out what I am doing wrong -- if anything. Any ideas?

PS Curse not just IT, but all things technological.  Let's all go off the
grid and subsistence-farm and hunt and gather for a living.

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From jbaltz at altzman.com  Fri Apr 18 12:03:38 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:03:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <p06240806c42e61fcb534@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
	<p06240806c42e61fcb534@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <4808C65A.1070605@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-18 10:38 tedd said the following:
>> Because, well, sometimes hard and fast specs aren't available, and 
>> working face to face with someone allows better communication.
>> It's as simple and as profound as that.
> It may allow quicker communication, but that can be handled by telephone.

Some can; some cannot. When you have a captive audience in front of you, 
you often get a higher percentage of attention than you do when the 
other party could be IMing a second person and/or composing an email to 
a third.

> You want me to work for you, simply tell me what you want. That 
> communication not only defines the project, but get the client to think 
> it terms of what's important to them.

And fat people should simply just not eat so much! It's just that simple!

>> That may work well, if there are well-defined tasks and little change. 
>> With many moving parts, it becomes harder.
>> Your mileage may vary.
> My mileage does vary. I have worked on numerous projects that have 
> moving parts -- in fact, they all do. But written communication better 
> defines what the needs are -- and -- they come with a time stamp.

That's right...if you are lucky enough to have projects that work in 
that fashion. Not everyone works in email. Not all clients WANT to.

> tedd

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From chsnyder at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 12:13:11 2008
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:13:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT?] inconsistent html email display
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804180856j4f61483fp56a17af7197ba170@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804180856j4f61483fp56a17af7197ba170@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690804180913m6300cb99p19427756af3a1f35@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:56 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:

> I had a user complain that the data column was empty on Yahoo! with IE 7.
> She forwards the offending message to my own Yahoo, and it displays (in
> Firefox 2).

I wonder if Yahoo! is sending different stylesheets to IE and Firefox.
I know I do.

Are you using class attributes for styling? Could Y!s styles be
cascading into your html content? Weird.

-- 
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From tedd at sperling.com  Fri Apr 18 12:31:18 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:31:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4808C65A.1070605@altzman.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
	<p06240806c42e61fcb534@[192.168.1.101]> <4808C65A.1070605@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080ac42e7d0a0c81@[192.168.1.101]>

At 12:03 PM -0400 4/18/08, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
>
>And fat people should simply just not eat so much! It's just that simple!

Hey, no reason to get personal !   :-)

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ramons at gmx.net  Fri Apr 18 12:32:50 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:32:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418102154.02a15880@e-government.com>
References: <be4.2cd9230a.353a064a@aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418102154.02a15880@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <4808CD32.9020800@gmx.net>

Urb LeJeune wrote:
> 
>         You may be comparing apples and oranges. Some schools use 
> quarter semesters
> which are 12 week semesters. The most common are 16 week semesters. So 150
> quarter hours would be equivalent to 112 semester hours.
> 
>         You mentioned Drexal, I believe they use quarter hours.

But the credits should end up to be the same. So instead of getting 3 creadits 
for a 16 week course you get only 2 credits for a 12 week course.

And I didn't mention Drexel, that was someone else, but in that regards, it 
also matters in Germany where you go. Places like Aachen or Karlsruhe have a 
much higher regard and much tougher programs although universities generally 
cover the same topics, but each offer some specialisations (I specialised in 
optical communications). The place I went to was close to where I lived and 
offered a program that was not impossible for me to complete. Yet it was 
probably not even among the top 100 engineering schools in Germany. Still, 
everyone I graduated with got an engineering job within a few months.
That said, going to CCSU and getting straight As in everything with not much 
effort doesn't really make me believe that getting an MS degree here is as 
difficult as it is to get the equivalent degree in Germany. In fact, German 
universities give BS degrees to those who drop out of MS programs. But they 
figured that this does quite a disservice for those who hold a BS and now 
offer a BS degree after 3 years and when adding on another year you get the MS.
CCSU is the place where Pratt&Whitney sends their people to get degrees. P&W 
has a nice tuition program, not only do they pay for school, but they also pay 
their employees for several hours a week for studying as well as give a 10k 
bonus when one graduates.
I got "paid" to go to school in Germany. I got federal financial aid, half was 
a gift from the taxpayers and the other half was an interest free loan. The 
loan is due two years after graduation. I paid the sum off in one go and got a 
28% reduction for that. Now THAT is financial aid, not this crap that they 
offer here so that the universities can have bloated amounts of staff, huge 
football stadiums, and a campus that rivals the fine parks of the kings of the 
world. Oh, and for the longest time there was no tuition in Germany, just a 
semester fee that paid for the day care center and for the half year rail&bus 
pass. They now charge about 300 Euro a semester, but compared to a US school 
that is still a bargain. Luckily I didn't pay for the tuition, IR did. I just 
think that a 1,000$ plus fee per class should result into some more 
challenging education.

Again the disclaimer, this is all based on my epxerience and what I read and 
what I heard others state to me. I don't know what Drexel or GA Tech or MIT or 
CIT do in class and in the labs and how their programs really are. It's just a 
bit time and cost prohibitive for me to find out for myself, although I wish I 
could.

David


From ramons at gmx.net  Fri Apr 18 12:35:35 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:35:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <cf2.2e4c38a7.353a0f34@aol.com>
References: <cf2.2e4c38a7.353a0f34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4808CDD7.5070402@gmx.net>

SyAD at aol.com wrote:
> Maybe I'm being jingoistic, but I really feel that there's an "umph" 
> that developers in the US have that isn't as readily available elsewhere.
>  
> Cue The Star Spangled Banner!!
>  

Which is why stuff gets sent to India, China, or now Russia. Or in my case 
Germany (how ironic!). I'm sure there is plenty of oomph everywhere...whatever 
that may be.


From jbaltz at altzman.com  Fri Apr 18 12:41:55 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:41:55 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ac42e7d0a0c81@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
	<p06240806c42e61fcb534@[192.168.1.101]> <4808C65A.1070605@altzman.com>
	<p0624080ac42e7d0a0c81@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <4808CF53.3020609@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-18 12:31 tedd said the following:
> At 12:03 PM -0400 4/18/08, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
>> And fat people should simply just not eat so much! It's just that simple!
> Hey, no reason to get personal !   :-)

Ask Hans or Kristina who *they* thought I had in mind.

> tedd

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From SyAD at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 13:04:50 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:04:50 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <d04.2ec8befe.353a2eb2@aol.com>

 
Umm -- that was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek ...
 
In a message dated 4/18/2008 12:43:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ramons at gmx.net writes:

SyAD at aol.com wrote:
> Maybe I'm being jingoistic, but I really feel that there's an "umph" 
> that developers in the US have that isn't as readily available elsewhere.
>  
> Cue The Star Spangled Banner!!
>  

Which is why stuff gets sent to India, China, or now Russia. Or in my case 
Germany (how ironic!). I'm sure there is plenty of oomph 
everywhere...whatever 
that may be.
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

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http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php





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From tedd at sperling.com  Fri Apr 18 13:05:05 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:05:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <4808CF53.3020609@altzman.com>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
	<p06240806c42e61fcb534@[192.168.1.101]> <4808C65A.1070605@altzman.com>
	<p0624080ac42e7d0a0c81@[192.168.1.101]> <4808CF53.3020609@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080dc42e835886f2@[192.168.1.101]>

At 12:41 PM -0400 4/18/08, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
>on 2008-04-18 12:31 tedd said the following:
>>At 12:03 PM -0400 4/18/08, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
>>>And fat people should simply just not eat so much! It's just that simple!
>>Hey, no reason to get personal !   :-)
>
>Ask Hans or Kristina who *they* thought I had in mind.
>
>>tedd
>
>//jbaltz

Whoa dude -- you must not be married. You never mention any woman's 
name with a "fat" inference.

You'll never win any argument that even remotely starts there. :-)

Cheers,

tedd


-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From SyAD at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 13:14:57 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:14:57 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <cf3.2ebe3c7c.353a3111@aol.com>

 
I don't get the credits argument -- I think Urb was saying that Drexel counts 
their hours in a totally different way (btw, I'm the one who mentioned 
Drexel).  As far as I know, there is no federal mandate to count hours in a certain 
way -- in other words, standardization is not mandated.
 
You're not going to get a lot of argument about the insane upward spiral of 
college costs from most Americans, along with the declining system of financial 
aid.
 
And the cost of the college may not be correlated with the quality of the 
school.
 
Steve
 
In a message dated 4/18/2008 12:40:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ramons at gmx.net writes:

Urb LeJeune wrote:
> 
>         You may be comparing apples and oranges. Some schools use 
> quarter semesters
> which are 12 week semesters. The most common are 16 week semesters. So 150
> quarter hours would be equivalent to 112 semester hours.
> 
>         You mentioned Drexal, I believe they use quarter hours.

But the credits should end up to be the same. So instead of getting 3 
creadits 
for a 16 week course you get only 2 credits for a 12 week course.

And I didn't mention Drexel, that was someone else, but in that regards, it 
also matters in Germany where you go. Places like Aachen or Karlsruhe have a 
much higher regard and much tougher programs although universities generally 
cover the same topics, but each offer some specialisations (I specialised in 
optical communications). The place I went to was close to where I lived and 
offered a program that was not impossible for me to complete. Yet it was 
probably not even among the top 100 engineering schools in Germany. Still, 
everyone I graduated with got an engineering job within a few months.
That said, going to CCSU and getting straight As in everything with not much 
effort doesn't really make me believe that getting an MS degree here is as 
difficult as it is to get the equivalent degree in Germany. In fact, German 
universities give BS degrees to those who drop out of MS programs. But they 
figured that this does quite a disservice for those who hold a BS and now 
offer a BS degree after 3 years and when adding on another year you get the 
MS.
CCSU is the place where Pratt&Whitney sends their people to get degrees. P&W 
has a nice tuition program, not only do they pay for school, but they also 
pay 
their employees for several hours a week for studying as well as give a 10k 
bonus when one graduates.
I got "paid" to go to school in Germany. I got federal financial aid, half 
was 
a gift from the taxpayers and the other half was an interest free loan. The 
loan is due two years after graduation. I paid the sum off in one go and got 
a 
28% reduction for that. Now THAT is financial aid, not this crap that they 
offer here so that the universities can have bloated amounts of staff, huge 
football stadiums, and a campus that rivals the fine parks of the kings of 
the 
world. Oh, and for the longest time there was no tuition in Germany, just a 
semester fee that paid for the day care center and for the half year rail&bus 
pass. They now charge about 300 Euro a semester, but compared to a US school 
that is still a bargain. Luckily I didn't pay for the tuition, IR did. I just 
think that a 1,000$ plus fee per class should result into some more 
challenging education.

Again the disclaimer, this is all based on my epxerience and what I read and 
what I heard others state to me. I don't know what Drexel or GA Tech or MIT 
or 
CIT do in class and in the labs and how their programs really are. It's just 
a 
bit time and cost prohibitive for me to find out for myself, although I wish 
I 
could.

David
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php





**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
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From david at davidmintz.org  Fri Apr 18 13:54:04 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:54:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT?] inconsistent html email display
In-Reply-To: <b76252690804180913m6300cb99p19427756af3a1f35@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804180856j4f61483fp56a17af7197ba170@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690804180913m6300cb99p19427756af3a1f35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804181054n3a75447dif6e404acebad48b1@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not styling with class attributes, but I am linking to my own stylesheet
via fully qualified URL -- is that a crime or something? Anyway, the
problematic snippet looks like this (sorry for the extreme boringness of the
content):

<table style="width:80%;font-family:sans-serif">
<caption style="font-weight:bold">Interpreting Assignment Information</caption>
<tr style="vertical-align:top">
<td>Date and time</td>
<td>Friday, April 18, 2008 at 10:00 AM</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Proceeding</td><td>conference</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Judge</td>
<td>Sullivan</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Docket</td>
<td>06-CR-0507</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Language</td>
<td>Spanish</td>
</tr>
<tr style="vertical-align:top">
<td>Defendant(s)</td>
<td>G?mez, Manuel Humberto<br/></td>
</tr>
<tr style="vertical-align:top">
<td>Interpreters(s)</td>
<td>Gold, Paula<br/></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Notes</td>
<td>no notice</td>
</tr>
</table>



On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:13 PM, csnyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:56 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I had a user complain that the data column was empty on Yahoo! with IE
> 7.
> > She forwards the offending message to my own Yahoo, and it displays (in
> > Firefox 2).
>
> I wonder if Yahoo! is sending different stylesheets to IE and Firefox.
> I know I do.
>
> Are you using class attributes for styling? Could Y!s styles be
> cascading into your html content? Weird.
>
> --
> Chris Snyder
> http://chxo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From mailinglists at caseysoftware.com  Fri Apr 18 14:01:18 2008
From: mailinglists at caseysoftware.com (Keith Casey)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:01:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <p0624080dc42e835886f2@192.168.1.101>
References: <c01.33e1a013.3538a818@aol.com> <480797C9.7050509@altzman.com>
	<4807A922.9070206@o2group.com> <4807AA70.3030506@altzman.com>
	<p06240806c42e61fcb534@192.168.1.101> <4808C65A.1070605@altzman.com>
	<p0624080ac42e7d0a0c81@192.168.1.101> <4808CF53.3020609@altzman.com>
	<p0624080dc42e835886f2@192.168.1.101>
Message-ID: <fd219f0f0804181101x6164147bgf3204716d20ca3cb@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe IT people are devalued because when the bosses aren't looking,
we're jacking around online on mailing lists?

Food for thought... I'm one of the mods in the DCPHP community and I
often get pinged by people looking to hire, make an entrance in the
community, or just make their presence known for future recruiting.
Who do you think I send them to?    The people who provide value,
insight, and thoughtful questions or the people who make a nuisance of
themselves?

Your reputation has a direct impact on your billing rate and the
opportunities that appear to you.

No, not giving any names... I highlight the good people, not tear down
the bad ones.  They do that on their own. ;)

kc

-- 
D. Keith Casey Jr.
CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
http://CaseySoftware.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Apr 18 15:06:08 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:06:08 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208545568.887@coral.he.net>

Hey, I was 100% sure you were NOT talking about me :)

LOL!!

-- Kristina

> on 2008-04-18 12:31 tedd said the following:
> > At 12:03 PM -0400 4/18/08, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> >> And fat people should simply just not eat so much! It's just that 
simple!
> > Hey, no reason to get personal !   :-)
> 
> Ask Hans or Kristina who *they* thought I had in mind.
> 
> > tedd
> 
> //jbaltz
> -- 
> jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
> thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Apr 18 15:09:47 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:09:47 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Message-ID: <1208545787.2476@coral.he.net>

tedd,

Like I said, I was (and am) 100% sure he was not talking about me!!

NO way would he go there. LOL!!!
 
-- Kristina

> At 12:41 PM -0400 4/18/08, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> >on 2008-04-18 12:31 tedd said the following:
> >>At 12:03 PM -0400 4/18/08, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> >>>And fat people should simply just not eat so much! It's just that 
simple!
> >>Hey, no reason to get personal !   :-)
> >
> >Ask Hans or Kristina who *they* thought I had in mind.
> >
> >>tedd
> >
> >//jbaltz
> 
> Whoa dude -- you must not be married. You never mention any woman's 
> name with a "fat" inference.
> 
> You'll never win any argument that even remotely starts there. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> 
> 
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 16:24:22 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:24:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT?] inconsistent html email display
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804181054n3a75447dif6e404acebad48b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804180856j4f61483fp56a17af7197ba170@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690804180913m6300cb99p19427756af3a1f35@mail.gmail.com>
	<721f1cc50804181054n3a75447dif6e404acebad48b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804181324l2f0fcb9dg555b909e34588ae6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:54 PM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:
> I'm not styling with class attributes, but I am linking to my own stylesheet
> via fully qualified URL -- is that a crime or something?

Yes, it is.  All kinds of evilness could happen with an unvalidated
external stylesheet.  Hell, IE allows javascript in a stylesheet.  You
need to include the stylesheet in the html.

-John C.


From jbaltz at altzman.com  Fri Apr 18 17:12:23 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:12:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <1208545787.2476@coral.he.net>
References: <1208545787.2476@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <48090EB7.1050409@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-18 15:09 Kristina Anderson said the following:
> tedd,
> Like I said, I was (and am) 100% sure he was not talking about me!!

Geez youse guys are dense.

Hans and Kristina are the only ones among you who've actually *seen* me 
to know who I'd be referring to when I said "fat people".

> -- Kristina

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Apr 18 17:20:20 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:20:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181719210.15831-100000@bitblit.net>

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, Urb LeJeune wrote:

> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, 
> that requires considerable training
> and specialized study"

So someone who has degrees in Computer Science has not undergone 
"specialized study"?



-- 
Aj.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Apr 18 17:23:22 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:23:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208361750.10824@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181720440.15831-100000@bitblit.net>

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, Kristina Anderson wrote:

> My question to you Urb:  Would you consider me, a person with a non-CS 
> university degree (B.A.), and 10 years of actual paid experience, to 
> be "self taught" or merely "non traditionally formally educated"...?
> It's true that the skills to be a good programmer were learned "in the 
> field" and not in a classroom but isn't that true of everyone?  And to 
> say "self taught" is to really underestimate the contributions of very 
> brilliant people I have learned from over the years including one Dr. 
> Jerry A. who posts to this list, and many others.

I would also say, that many "professions" require practical experience in 
the field. Doctors have internships. Architects have to work for a firm 
for a certain length of time, etc etc. That looks like on-the-job training 
to me. Certainly a programmer that has a degree and has several years of 
paid experience ought to be considered a professional of some kind.



-- 
Aj.



From lists at enobrev.com  Fri Apr 18 17:42:50 2008
From: lists at enobrev.com (Mark Armendariz)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:42:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <48090EB7.1050409@altzman.com>
References: <1208545787.2476@coral.he.net> <48090EB7.1050409@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <480915DA.4000408@enobrev.com>

Sorry to enter the conversation so late (had a minor outgoing email 
issue with the list)...

After 8 years of working from this desk in the windowed corner of my 
Brooklyn apartment, I couldn't disagree more with a lot of the sentiment 
in this thread.  Like tedd, I never have to look for or ask for steady 
and high paying work (rating a minimum of 100 hourly at rare occasion).  
I usually have 2 - 3 medium to large projects going at any given time, 
during which I have to turn down a couple others due to time constraints 
or disinterest.  Some of my clients have been with me for months and 
others for years and they keep coming back.  Best part being that I've 
never met the majority of them in person - some of them I've never even 
spoken to over the phone.

Don't get me wrong, I love to talk to my clients and whenever any happen 
to be in town (or I'm where they are), I make sure to buy them dinner or 
a drink or whatever their pleasure.  But when it comes to work, it's 
hard to find anything more reliable than email (or Maybe basecamp).  The 
secret is to over-communicate.  Make sure that you get your point across 
in a friendly and professional matter with more information than the 
client could possibly hope for (about the work, not the wardrobe), 
taking no chances that they'll "just get it".  It allows the client to 
feel free about opening up as well and provides a means of un-awkward 
communication with a "paper" trail.  If you find that the communication 
between you and your client is lacking, blame yourself.  As the 
professional, it's your fault.  Specs are always short-sighted on the 
first round, and only get better by hand-holding and lullabies and 
meeting face-to-face doesn't necessarily make that better - many times 
it makes it worse as you'll "feel" like they get what you're saying 
because they're nodding their heads trying not to look dumb.

As for the odd idea that the availability of work is diminishing - you 
couldn't be further from earth.  There is Plenty of work to go around 
for web programmers.     Especially if you care about your craft.  Our 
industry is Incredibly young.  There are TENS of THOUSANDS of businesses 
who have a sub-par web presence built a decade ago and most of them 
could benefit from an application that would help them run more 
efficiently right into the current century.  If you're pretty good at 
what you do with the ability to communicate with other human beings, you 
should be able to get paid whatever you need to get paid to live in 
comfort.  And if you can't communicate, find someone who can and give 
them a cut.

If you're not finding it here, there's plenty elsewhere. There are TONS 
of the smaller well-known design firms based in California.  They all 
need developers to implement their grandiose designs.  They have fortune 
500 clients.  They pay on time, happily.  They have little issue with 
working with someone from afar.  New York... well, I love the city and 
hence I live in Brooklyn, but I've very few New York clients - and 
that's not to say I don't have plenty offers for freelance work and 
employment here.  I'll just say that my clients elsewhere have generally 
been easier to work with - especially around pay day.

As for large projects.  While I agree that you won't easily find a big 
gig when solo - it is very possible.  Every large gig I get usually 
involves being invited to a team put together by one of my clients.  So, 
sure big gigs can be difficult, but they are absolutely possible if the 
right people know you're good at what you do.

And for the IT industry...  I left a high paying job as an IT manager on 
Wall Street long ago to program full time and I've slept much better since.


Mark Armendariz


From smanes at magpie.com  Sat Apr 19 01:29:32 2008
From: smanes at magpie.com (Steve Manes)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:29:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
In-Reply-To: <480915DA.4000408@enobrev.com>
References: <1208545787.2476@coral.he.net> <48090EB7.1050409@altzman.com>
	<480915DA.4000408@enobrev.com>
Message-ID: <4809833C.2010807@magpie.com>

Mark Armendariz wrote:
> As for large projects.  While I agree that you won't easily find a big 
> gig when solo - it is very possible.  Every large gig I get usually 
> involves being invited to a team put together by one of my clients.  So, 
> sure big gigs can be difficult, but they are absolutely possible if the 
> right people know you're good at what you do.

Except for four years, I've been telecommuting since 1989.  Most of my 
jobs have been on the large side: 1+ years.  Usually, I work solo but 
I've been on teams as large as 15 developers scattered around the country.

A few of those gigs, like Operative and answerThink, started as 
fulltime/on-site but when the boss saw how much I was getting done on 
weekends and evenings at home, he or she told me not to come in except 
for meetings.  If nothing else, for them it meant an two extra 12 hours 
of work out of me every week that I was otherwise wasting on an MTA commute.

Successful telecommuting involves two things that an IT department 
should already have but too often doesn't: motivated tech workers with 
good initiative and communications skills and tech management that knows 
how to manage a software project, not just butts in chairs.




From lists at nopersonal.info  Sat Apr 19 02:07:42 2008
From: lists at nopersonal.info (BAS)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:07:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT?] inconsistent html email display
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804181054n3a75447dif6e404acebad48b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804180856j4f61483fp56a17af7197ba170@mail.gmail.com>	<b76252690804180913m6300cb99p19427756af3a1f35@mail.gmail.com>
	<721f1cc50804181054n3a75447dif6e404acebad48b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48098C2E.1010606@nopersonal.info>

David Mintz wrote:
> I'm not styling with class attributes, but I am linking to my own 
> stylesheet via fully qualified URL -- is that a crime or something? 

Hi David,

I'll second what John said--yes, external stylesheets are evil and will 
give you nothing but grief in HTML emails.

CSS support in HTML email is highly unpredictable & buggy--much more so 
than in browsers, and it's only gotten worse with the advent of Outlook 
2007.

The best resource I know of is at:
http://www.campaignmonitor.com/blog/archives/2007/04/a_guide_to_css_support_in_emai_2.html

It contains an accurate, up-to-date, exhaustive list of CSS support in 
all major email clients (PC & Mac), as well as the webmail-based stuff 
like GMail, Windows Live Mail, etc.

Bev


From urb at e-government.com  Sat Apr 19 08:01:36 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:01:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181720440.15831-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <1208361750.10824@coral.he.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181720440.15831-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080419074028.02a2f800@e-government.com>


> > My question to you Urb:  Would you consider me, a person with a non-CS
> > university degree (B.A.), and 10 years of actual paid experience, to
> > be "self taught" or merely "non traditionally formally educated"...?


         Good question. I think you are an exceptional person :-) Let me make
something perfectly clear. I'm a big proponent of non-traditional learning,
I didn't enter a college classroom until I was 44 years old. My under-
graduate degree is from Thomas Edison State College which is totally
a non-traditional educational institution.

> > It's true that the skills to be a good programmer were learned "in the
> > field" and not in a classroom but isn't that true of everyone?

         Unfortunately, that's true of most people through no fault of their
own. When I was teaching at the college level I was one of 13 full-time
computer faculty member. I was the only one who had ever earned a
nickle in the field. "Real World" experience makes a difference.

>And to
> > say "self taught" is to really underestimate the contributions of very
> > brilliant people I have learned from over the years including one Dr.
> > Jerry A. who posts to this list, and many others.

         I have hired programmers with no formal training and I know
people with a Ph.D. in computer science that I would not hire under
any conditions.

>I would also say, that many "professions" require practical experience in
>the field. Doctors have internships. Architects have to work for a firm
>for a certain length of time, etc etc. That looks like on-the-job training
>to me.

         Aren't you suggesting that a professional require formal training
as well as on-the-job training?

         Let my turn it around a bit. Would you go to a doctor who was
completely self taught? I once ask a fellow faculty member, "what is
the difference between a Public Accountant and a Certified Public
Accountant?" His answer, "about 50K per year."

>  Certainly a programmer that has a degree and has several years of
>paid experience ought to be considered a professional of some kind.

         It's really semantics. You are free to define "professional" any
way you like. Ask some non-computer friends how they would define
professional.

         Let me make a practical point. 10 years after the Financial Analysts
Federation announced there Certified Financial Analysts (CFA) designation
those so certified was making 56% more than their cohorts not 
certified.

         Someone ask a question, do we want the government determining
what qualifications we should have to get a programming job? Of course
not. However, shouldn't we have a national organization who, among
other things, establishes credential standards? The real problem would be
to get a group of practitioners to agree on the criterion for accreditation.


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From urb at e-government.com  Sat Apr 19 08:09:20 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:09:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181719210.15831-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181719210.15831-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080419080210.012b4008@e-government.com>


>So someone who has degrees in Computer Science has not undergone
>"specialized study"?

         Of course they do. We have things like "professional baseball players"
which to me is a joke. To me, and I'm only speaking for myself, professionalism
also implies ongoing. Virtually all profession have a specified number of
required annual hours that must be spent on keeping current with the state-of-
the-art.

         I'm not trying to be an elitist but rather a pragmatist. A 
have a cousin
who drive an 18 wheeler for a living. He makes about $90K a year. Would
you consider him a professional? There are people in the construction
trades making over $100K a year, likewise, are they professionals? There
is an elusive ingredient in what most people consider professionalism.

Urb

Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From tedd at sperling.com  Sat Apr 19 10:29:38 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:29:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080419080210.012b4008@e-government.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181719210.15831-100000@bitblit.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080419080210.012b4008@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <p06240801c42fa92bfb1a@[192.168.1.101]>

At 8:09 AM -0400 4/19/08, Urb LeJeune wrote:
>>So someone who has degrees in Computer Science has not undergone
>>"specialized study"?
>
>         Of course they do. We have things like "professional baseball players"
>which to me is a joke. To me, and I'm only speaking for myself, 
>professionalism
>also implies ongoing. Virtually all profession have a specified number of
>required annual hours that must be spent on keeping current with the state-of-
>the-art.
>
>         I'm not trying to be an elitist but rather a pragmatist. A 
>have a cousin
>who drive an 18 wheeler for a living. He makes about $90K a year. Would
>you consider him a professional? There are people in the construction
>trades making over $100K a year, likewise, are they professionals? There
>is an elusive ingredient in what most people consider professionalism.
>
>Urb

Urb:

You started this thread by saying that programming and web design was 
not a profession. Then you gave licensing as your main reason why.

The term "professional" in our language extends beyond the limitation 
imposed by licensing. For example, while it is true there is no 
licensing for athletes if an athlete earns money from his/her 
ability, then they can't compete in the Olympics because they are 
considered to be a "professional" athlete.

Then of course there's the "oldest profession", which there has never 
been any licensing for except for an occasional health screening in 
some areas -- and I am certain that profession started long before 
licensing.

Now you say that truck drivers are not professional. But they are 
required to licensed and it does require training. If you don't think 
driving an 18 wheeler required specialized knowledge, then try 
driving one. Oh I forgot, you wouldn't be allowed because you don't 
have the license nor the experience to do so.

Your view on profession is limited and shortsighted. Now with the 
global scope of Internet programming and communication technology 
changing as fast as it is, there could never be any licensing 
authority to set in judgement of this profession -- let alone to be 
sanctioned by the global community. The point being that the term 
"profession" has outgrown its definition.

As far as being an elitist or pragmatist, I really don't think your 
words reflect a pragmatistic view.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Apr 19 11:43:23 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:43:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080419080210.012b4008@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191142070.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Urb LeJeune wrote:

>          I'm not trying to be an elitist but rather a pragmatist. A 
> have a cousin
> who drive an 18 wheeler for a living. He makes about $90K a year. Would
> you consider him a professional?

Does he have a degree? Or does he have a tonof experience? Either will do.

> There are people in the construction
> trades making over $100K a year, likewise, are they professionals? There
> is an elusive ingredient in what most people consider professionalism.

Ditto.

Some exerience you only learn on the job but that's doesn't make it less 
valuable.

-- 
Aj.



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 19 11:53:18 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:53:18 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208620398.25480@coral.he.net>

Well anyone in the IT industry knows that we are all putting in those 
huge hours every year to to keep current with the latest and 
newest...!!!

So we have that item covered.

That's for darn sure.

-- Kristina

> 
> >So someone who has degrees in Computer Science has not undergone
> >"specialized study"?
> 
>          Of course they do. We have things like "professional 
baseball players"
> which to me is a joke. To me, and I'm only speaking for myself, 
professionalism
> also implies ongoing. Virtually all profession have a specified 
number of
> required annual hours that must be spent on keeping current with the 
state-of-
> the-art.
> 
>          I'm not trying to be an elitist but rather a pragmatist. A 
> have a cousin
> who drive an 18 wheeler for a living. He makes about $90K a year. 
Would
> you consider him a professional? There are people in the construction
> trades making over $100K a year, likewise, are they professionals? 
There
> is an elusive ingredient in what most people consider professionalism.
> 
> Urb
> 
> Urb
> 
> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
> E-Government.com
> 609-294-0320  800-204-9545
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 


From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Apr 19 12:06:56 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:06:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080419074028.02a2f800@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191152200.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Urb LeJeune wrote:

>          Let my turn it around a bit. Would you go to a doctor who was
> completely self taught? I once ask a fellow faculty member, "what is
> the difference between a Public Accountant and a Certified Public
> Accountant?" His answer, "about 50K per year."

Which doesn't really mean anything in technology - even if you had some 
kind of certification it will quickly become less and less relevant. Would 
you hire someone that was certified over 10 years ago or someone with a 
lot of experience who isn't certfied?

The problem is technology changes faster than pretty much any other 
business. This is why when some of these certifications started appearing 
(like the Microsoft ones), they had to put a system in place where after a 
certain amount of time (or releases) you had to be "re-certified". My 
conclusion at the time is that certification *may* show some basic 
competency for a very narrow range of technology but ultimately is of 
little value. Probably why Ive never been certified in anything.

I should also mention that in the UK (I live here but I grew up the UK) 
the British Computer Society has a membership criteria that includes a 
degree but also requires a certain amount of job experience to qualify.
 
>          It's really semantics. You are free to define "professional" any
> way you like. Ask some non-computer friends how they would define
> professional.

You mean ask people to apply criteria in their field to another field 
which they don't understand and which they assume doesn't change very 
much? Yeah, that'll work :-)

>          Let me make a practical point. 10 years after the Financial Analysts
> Federation announced there Certified Financial Analysts (CFA) designation
> those so certified was making 56% more than their cohorts not 
> certified.

Again, that just means they've drank the Cool Aid WRT certifications. You 
can't look at technology the same way.



-- 
Aj.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Apr 19 12:17:11 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:17:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <480637C3.5000003@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191209190.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, David Krings wrote:

> 2/3rd of the study time 
> are wasted for English, history, art, and whatever else non-major garbage the 
> universities make students take.

That's very much a US thng. In the UK you're studying your chosen major 
from day one. In certain other European countries the degrees also include 
some job experience (its optional in the UK).

> I got by BS from a german university and 30 courses and labs were on-topic, 
> with 3 electives venturing into less subject related areas. I took mass 
> communication, work safety and technical English. I went on to getting an MS 
> at a US university and there was really only one course that didn't consist of 
> brainless busy work, but challenged one's mind and had one think. Without 
> doubt, that was the course I learned most.

Though a MS takes two years minimum here right?

> Certs are a proof that you are capable of systematic learning and performing 
> when needed, just like a bachelor, master, or doctoral degree. It doesn't say 
> anything how qualified one is for the job and thus shouldn't be generally a 
> requirement unless loss of life and property are directly dependent on that 
> accuracy of the work.

Kind of what I was saying too.



-- 
Aj.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Apr 19 12:24:59 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:24:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <48066979.2050907@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191220480.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, David Krings wrote:

> See, I consider a university not to be a continuation of high school. A 
> university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field of choice 
> with the goal to make them subject matter experts in that field.

Yes, exactly!

> This is how 
> many other university systems in the world understand "higher education". One 
> reason why foreign specialists are so attractive to US businesses...

Yep.

> and the 
> fact that under H1B via the employees are tied to the company and can be made 
> to do the same job for less money.
> I think the liberal arts model is purely used for the reason that most high 
> school graduates are not ready for university studies.

Which to me mens they probably should not be in university until they've 
decided what they want to do.

> Maybe with better trained university graduates the 
> need for certifications would be a moot point.

Totally agree. Maybe the fact that you and I were NOT educated in the US 
gives us a different view on higher education.



-- 
Aj.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Apr 19 12:43:07 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:43:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <946586480804161824m5d65d569p3345f72c084912e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191225390.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, Christopher R. Merlo wrote:

> That's actually not true, and your apparent belief in this untruth is
> probably what has led to your seemingly very strongly felt distaste for
> university education.

At least US education...

> The purpose of a college or university is to provide the student with an
> education, so that the student may go on to contribute back to society.  An
> education involves more than just learning a trade, or a skill.  Moreover,
> most experts in any field are usually well-versed in some other field as
> well; this is what allows educated people to do things like draw analogies,
> or relate to non-technical people.

This sort of implies that someone that is highly specialised cannot relate 
to people in other dsciplines. I dont think that is true (Im sure you 
could find some prime examples but they are probably exceptions). I 
clearly dont need a class in English to write these emails with correct 
capitalization and punctuation (or spelling!).

> Physicists must read the classics in
> English literature so that non-physicists will talk to them at dinner
> parties; this helps with things like professional networking.

The attitude outside the US is that that is something you do in your own 
time. (In the UK, you might get a day or half day off per week to pursue 
your own intrests outside of your academic study). In any case, you would 
learn some of those skills in your work experience too.

> (Everyone who
> got your job because you know the right non-IT person, raise your hands.

My hand is not raised. Connections might count in certain businesses but 
Ive never been hired because of people I know. (And Im doing exceptionally 
well in my career thanks very much).

> and the reason they kept tapping me, over my
> colleagues, was that I was an effective communicator, and I was able to
> translate plans to code, and feature requests to timetables, but also code
> to English, and bug hunts to revised timetables; and I didn't scare the
> suits away when I talked to them.

I think that says more about the lack of technical knowledge of suits more 
than anything else. I think technical people should be managed by 
technical people. I think people wanting to manage technical companies 
should learn about the technology rather than generic management. This, to 
me, is the real problem.



-- 
Aj.



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 19 12:55:39 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:55:39 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208624139.10658@coral.he.net>

I'm sure most of you already know this but essentially, in times past 
in the United States (and I have to assume hundreds of years ago in 
Europe, as well, although that apparently has changed), the 
undergraduate university degree was seen as a "gentleman's education", 
teaching a liberal arts curriculum that essentially prepared you for no 
useful trade and was sharply contrasted by any "utilitarian" 
or "vocational" education, which taught a trade or skill specifically 
for the purpose of earning money by working (which young gentlemen 
attending university back then usually did not do, but moreso sat 
around on their rear ends reading arcane texts in the original Latin, 
drinking heavily and perhaps going into politics...some things have not 
changed!).

Certain occupations such as the law, the clergy and banking were 
thought to be suitable for gentlemen and any "career related education" 
was to take place on the graduate level.

And vestiges of this system clearly survive to this day even though we 
now have a much higher percentage of students continuing to the college 
level, and many of them with expectations that "going to college" will 
teach them "what they need to know to get a good job".  That isn't the 
function of the university, the function of the university is to 
provide a broad based liberal arts education.  That's why even a B.Sc. 
student in an engineering discipline is expected to take 80 or 85 
credits of miscellaneous "useless" liberal arts or general courses at 
US universities.

Therefore you can see that the reasoning behind this curriculum is NOT 
that US university students are "not ready for higher education" after 
high school or that "university is a continuation of HS" in the US [to 
paraphrase from below]...it's that we here in the US have always had a 
particular notion that liberal arts WAS a university education, and 
that "vocational" or "skills" training was not something that any 
respectable person had to worry about until AFTER 4 years at university.

Vocational training is all well and good and yes, does make 
attractive "workers", but will not replace a solid well rounded 
university education.  


> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, David Krings wrote:
> 
> > See, I consider a university not to be a continuation of high 
school. A 
> > university is supposed to train interested candidates in a field of 
choice 
> > with the goal to make them subject matter experts in that field.
> 
> Yes, exactly!
> 
> > This is how 
> > many other university systems in the world understand "higher 
education". One 
> > reason why foreign specialists are so attractive to US businesses...
> 
> Yep.
> 
> > and the 
> > fact that under H1B via the employees are tied to the company and 
can be made 
> > to do the same job for less money.
> > I think the liberal arts model is purely used for the reason that 
most high 
> > school graduates are not ready for university studies.
> 
> Which to me mens they probably should not be in university until 
they've 
> decided what they want to do.
> 
> > Maybe with better trained university graduates the 
> > need for certifications would be a moot point.
> 
> Totally agree. Maybe the fact that you and I were NOT educated in the 
US 
> gives us a different view on higher education.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Aj.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Apr 19 13:04:37 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:04:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <946586480804162117i296481ev650c76fb77756be7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191247260.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008, Christopher R. Merlo wrote:

> There is that, if you want to look at it cynically.

And why not? We should be more cynical in this hypocritical country. 

That's why we have had an absolutely appalling government for the past 8 
years - we SHOULD be more cynical so we dont let this happen again!

> And I think it goes back to the preparation angle.  Other countries place a
> far higher emphasis on early education, and so therefore children are more
> comfortable with math and science

Exactly.

> geeks for it.  And, by the way, based on my totally unscientific,
> insufficient, and now-cloudy observations from my days in industry, foreign
> IT workers often have a far tougher time moving up the corporate ladder, and
> potentially for the same reason that some Americans might -- an inability to
> communicate effectively gets them labeled as "dumb" or "lazy", etc., by the
> people whose opinions matter, when in fact, they might just be incredibly
> smart and talented products of a technical school rather than a liberal arts
> school.

Not quite right - I think there's a gap in your knowledge here about 
foreign workers. Since I came to the US on an H1B visa I probably have a 
better understanding.

Technical workers will most likely be on an H1B visa and so the following 
apply:

1) You cannot transfer the visa to another company. You need to get a new 
visa. Since 9/11 this has been made much much harder (I'd say practically 
impossible). So if you're offered a management positiion in another 
company you couldn't take it anyway.

2) An H1B visa is limited to 6 years tops (initially its 3 years but if 
you're lucky you can extend it to 6 years). So a tech workers won't be 
around long enough to move up.

These two facts most likely limit how far foreign tech workers can 
advance.



-- 
Aj.



From ramons at gmx.net  Sat Apr 19 15:00:22 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:00:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208624139.10658@coral.he.net>
References: <1208624139.10658@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <480A4146.1070207@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> I'm sure most of you already know this but essentially, in times past 
> in the United States (and I have to assume hundreds of years ago in 
> Europe, as well, although that apparently has changed), the 
> undergraduate university degree was seen as a "gentleman's education", 
> teaching a liberal arts curriculum that essentially prepared you for no 
> useful trade and was sharply contrasted by any "utilitarian" 
> or "vocational" education, which taught a trade or skill specifically 
> for the purpose of earning money by working (which young gentlemen 
> attending university back then usually did not do, but moreso sat 
> around on their rear ends reading arcane texts in the original Latin, 
> drinking heavily and perhaps going into politics...some things have not 
> changed!).

Do I assume right you refer to the Studium Generale (no, not General Studies, 
which I think is a joke that one can get a degree for that)? Yes, that was the 
typical type of study in european universities for centuries. It wasn't meant 
to prepare for "a" profession or trade, but do so for all of them. Students 
were taught everything that the western world knew at the time. Of course, 
after the knowledge explosion after the 17th century this was no longer possible.
Back then there was also no need for large amounts of university graduates. 
That has changed drastically and is one reason more why programs specialized 
into various branches and need to specialize even more. Even the vocational 
training changed a lot over the past 100 years in Germany, my grandfather went 
to a business to learn by doing, I too went to a business, but also spent 
considerable amount of time in specialized schools to learn the theory.


> And vestiges of this system clearly survive to this day even though we 
> now have a much higher percentage of students continuing to the college 
> level, and many of them with expectations that "going to college" will 
> teach them "what they need to know to get a good job".  That isn't the 
> function of the university, the function of the university is to 
> provide a broad based liberal arts education.  That's why even a B.Sc. 
> student in an engineering discipline is expected to take 80 or 85 
> credits of miscellaneous "useless" liberal arts or general courses at 
> US universities.

Yes, but this is how things were done in the past and it may have worked then. 
I think US universities with a few exceptions don't generate the talent that 
the industry needs today, neither in quality nor numbers. I clearly see the 13 
years K-12 as the place for a broad education that satisfies the needs for a 
liberal arts education.

> Therefore you can see that the reasoning behind this curriculum is NOT 
> that US university students are "not ready for higher education" after 
> high school or that "university is a continuation of HS" in the US [to 
> paraphrase from below]...it's that we here in the US have always had a 
> particular notion that liberal arts WAS a university education, and 
> that "vocational" or "skills" training was not something that any 
> respectable person had to worry about until AFTER 4 years at university.

OK, but that is exactly why especially in the IT field a lot of work goes 
overseas or talent from overseas gets brought here. Just read the complaints 
from the C level managers in the various technical magazines, unless they 
happen to have a university that is willing to cooperate with companies in 
order to produce graduates with the skills and knowledge needed.
I think that after 4 years of university an engineering graduate is supposed 
to be capable of performing engineering tasks and not need yet another 4 years 
hands on training before he or she is starting to be useful. Who would you 
hire? A 4 year grad that spent 4 years or one that spent only 2 years on the 
subject?
As mentioned before, the liberal arts education is better placed in elementary 
and high schools and I think 13 years ought to be enough to learn and master 
what is needed. If someone decides that more training in writing or reading or 
math is needed, fine, take an extra course or two. I'm not saying that those 
courses are useless or a waste of time, I just think that they ought to be 
considered extra and not be part of a degree program. Ajai described it nicely 
in his replies and he may just be right that the perspective that we have of 
knowing both systems allows us to see the difference.

> Vocational training is all well and good and yes, does make 
> attractive "workers", but will not replace a solid well rounded 
> university education.  

That is because also the vocational training here in the US generally sucks. I 
spent three and a half years as radio- and TV technician apprentice. I worked 
in a business and also spent considerable amounts of times in specialiced 
schools. We not only learned the theory, math and science needed, but also 
business economics, occupational safety and additional hands-on work. We 
learned how to make circuit boards, how to drill them, how to bend, cut, and 
drill metals and other materials. While working in the business I did not just 
sit in the shop fixing TVs and VCRs, but also sold devices, went out to 
customers, and installed cable TV and satellite dishes. That means I also had 
to learn how to open and close roofs and install electric outlets following 
code. I even got the same basic training as an electrician. I don't know how 
it is in NY, but in CT you don't need any of that in order to even open a TV 
repair business. I germany you need a craftsmen's masters degree for that, 
which means more schooling and tests. And that is the norm at least for the 
past 60 years. I prefer that, especially when it is for example for a car 
mechanic. I want someone with proper training to fix my breaks and not just 
some schmuck off the street who knows what a wrench is good for. I know that 
the shops here in NYS need a special license, but I do not know what that 
includes. I know from other states that the "licensing" includes paying a fee 
and nothing else.

See, the US has excellent universities like MIT, CIT, Harvard, Yale, but can 
these universities produce enough graduates to satisfy the needs of the US 
industry? Definitely not, so all the other universities need to fill the void 
and when you look at the rankings of the other US universities in 
international comparison others tend to be better or as good. I did look at 
the various international rankings. Universities in non-english speaking 
countries tend to show up around the 30th place and below. Excellent 
universities like IIT were even absent on the lists I've seen. I did see 
Leiden and Barcelona in some, but so far at the bottom that I wonder if 
language and location played a role. There seems to be no fully independent 
organisation that compares universities.

David


From ramons at gmx.net  Sat Apr 19 15:23:46 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:23:46 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191247260.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191247260.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <480A46C2.6080604@gmx.net>

Ajai Khattri wrote:
  > These two facts most likely limit how far foreign tech workers can
> advance.

There is also other points, some technical workers don't want to advance into 
managerial positions or regret that they did. My boss at IR wanted to be a 
technical manager, what happened is that he spend his entire time on emails, 
meetings, and PowerPoint presentations. What a waste of a brilliant firmware 
engineer.
I wouldn't want to be a manager running a department, but would like to be a 
project lead for a limited time. I also think it depends a lot on the company. 
Some companies have a much flatter management structure and focus on one 
industry. The problem at IR was that we were a software development team in a 
company that usually relates only to hunks of steel or 'real' product that can 
be stuffed in a box. We made software that was mainly downloaded off a web 
site. Upper management couldn't take it apart or stuff into a box, for them it 
was either uninteresting or they didn't even know it existed. I now work at 
Tyler Technologies and as the name says, it is a tech company. What a 
difference that makes. I think it is misleading to measure technical skill and 
knowledge by counting the number of promotions. And that applies to both 
foreign and domestic workers.
Also, foreign workers regardless of visa status cannot work in quite a few 
companies. As soon as government contracts are involved chances go way down. 
Even so much, that one gets excluded from study projects. When I was at CCSU I 
attended a course about production management. Part of the course was to 
manage a project at a local company. They make parts of jet engines that are 
used in commercial and military planes. From the 24 students 8 were 
non-US-citizens. Not only were we not allowed to take part in the project, we 
were even thrown out of class when a production manager talked about what the 
company does. I complained about that to the instructor, my wife who is an 
alumni of the same university wrote a nasty letter to the university 
president. The responses were prompt with written letter of regrets and the 
plea to keep the press out of this. It was not easy to go back to class the 
week after. The project work was canceled, which was unfortunate, but the 
instructor adjusted his plan very well and it was in the end the best and most 
challenging class I had, in fact it was the only class I considered worthy of 
a masters program.

David


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 19 15:53:48 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:53:48 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208634828.31948@coral.he.net>

> Do I assume right you refer to the Studium Generale (no, not General 
Studies, 
> which I think is a joke that one can get a degree for that)? Yes, 
that was the 
> typical type of study in european universities for centuries. It 
wasn't meant 
> to prepare for "a" profession or trade, but do so for all of them. 
Students 
> were taught everything that the western world knew at the time. Of 
course, 
> after the knowledge explosion after the 17th century this was no 
longer possible.
> Back then there was also no need for large amounts of university 
graduates. 
> That has changed drastically and is one reason more why programs 
specialized 
> into various branches and need to specialize even more.

Yes, that is what I was referring to and you are right, the educational 
system has to change over time to meet society's needs...but right now 
in the US we have this particular system still in place.

Other comments:

Admittedly I'm not a "typical person" in the IT field -- I have a 
liberal arts education, and almost 10 years in another field before 
deciding to make the change to IT (programming) in my early/mid 30s.  
I'm now in my mid 40s (45 in August) and have been getting paid to 
write code for 10 years.  It was a steep learning curve and I had to 
spend at least 2 or 3 years in the "learning stage" (which I did on my 
own time while continuing to work in my previous field).  But I was 
bright, worked hard, and I learned enough to be at least competent.

Some managers probably would not want to hire me because they are 
looking for a "traditional" IT person...i.e. a 23, 24 yr old guy with a 
CS degree.  But those types of people are not always suitable to move 
up into management or lead teams, and they don't have the "soft 
skills"...communication, maturity, knowledge of different businesses 
and industries, and etc. etc. etc. that a lot of managers know are 
extremely valuable in an IT person.

Probably most managers are going to make hiring decisions based on 
what's worked for them in the past.  But a lot of them also know that a 
team is best if people do have a range of skills...and aren't all a 
homogeneous group of people the same age with the exact same 
educational background and skillset.  

And also I feel there is a lot of transferability between liberal arts 
and any field one chooses to go into...for instance, I studied the 
structure and usage of human languages...now I use different 
programming languages and they have similarities and differences just 
as human languages do...and then I spent 7 (of the most boring) years 
of my life proofreading and editing legal contracts...which taught me 
patience to wade through tons of code (which isn't exactly stimulating 
reading either in most cases!!), and a careful eye for detail.  So I 
feel that even if it's not "vocational," there is a place for liberal 
arts in education and it's not a waste of time to study it on the 
university level.

And also it bears mentioning that back in the early 80s, as a young 
white female my chances of getting into an "engineering program" were 
slim to zero.  I remember wanting to take Physics my senior year of HS 
and being told that "girls do not need that class since they will not 
be studying science or math in college anyway" (and mind you I was a 
National Merit Scholar and had been in "advanced" courses most of my 
school life)...and still they would not let me enroll.  Hopefully 
things have changed a bit since then.
 
-- Kristina




> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > I'm sure most of you already know this but essentially, in times 
past 
> > in the United States (and I have to assume hundreds of years ago in 
> > Europe, as well, although that apparently has changed), the 
> > undergraduate university degree was seen as a "gentleman's 
education", 
> > teaching a liberal arts curriculum that essentially prepared you 
for no 
> > useful trade and was sharply contrasted by any "utilitarian" 
> > or "vocational" education, which taught a trade or skill 
specifically 
> > for the purpose of earning money by working (which young gentlemen 
> > attending university back then usually did not do, but moreso sat 
> > around on their rear ends reading arcane texts in the original 
Latin, 
> > drinking heavily and perhaps going into politics...some things have 
not 
> > changed!).
> 
> Do I assume right you refer to the Studium Generale (no, not General 
Studies, 
> which I think is a joke that one can get a degree for that)? Yes, 
that was the 
> typical type of study in european universities for centuries. It 
wasn't meant 
> to prepare for "a" profession or trade, but do so for all of them. 
Students 
> were taught everything that the western world knew at the time. Of 
course, 
> after the knowledge explosion after the 17th century this was no 
longer possible.
> Back then there was also no need for large amounts of university 
graduates. 
> That has changed drastically and is one reason more why programs 
specialized 
> into various branches and need to specialize even more. Even the 
vocational 
> training changed a lot over the past 100 years in Germany, my 
grandfather went 
> to a business to learn by doing, I too went to a business, but also 
spent 
> considerable amount of time in specialized schools to learn the 
theory.
> 
> 
> > And vestiges of this system clearly survive to this day even though 
we 
> > now have a much higher percentage of students continuing to the 
college 
> > level, and many of them with expectations that "going to college" 
will 
> > teach them "what they need to know to get a good job".  That isn't 
the 
> > function of the university, the function of the university is to 
> > provide a broad based liberal arts education.  That's why even a 
B.Sc. 
> > student in an engineering discipline is expected to take 80 or 85 
> > credits of miscellaneous "useless" liberal arts or general courses 
at 
> > US universities.
> 
> Yes, but this is how things were done in the past and it may have 
worked then. 
> I think US universities with a few exceptions don't generate the 
talent that 
> the industry needs today, neither in quality nor numbers. I clearly 
see the 13 
> years K-12 as the place for a broad education that satisfies the 
needs for a 
> liberal arts education.
> 
> > Therefore you can see that the reasoning behind this curriculum is 
NOT 
> > that US university students are "not ready for higher education" 
after 
> > high school or that "university is a continuation of HS" in the US 
[to 
> > paraphrase from below]...it's that we here in the US have always 
had a 
> > particular notion that liberal arts WAS a university education, and 
> > that "vocational" or "skills" training was not something that any 
> > respectable person had to worry about until AFTER 4 years at 
university.
> 
> OK, but that is exactly why especially in the IT field a lot of work 
goes 
> overseas or talent from overseas gets brought here. Just read the 
complaints 
> from the C level managers in the various technical magazines, unless 
they 
> happen to have a university that is willing to cooperate with 
companies in 
> order to produce graduates with the skills and knowledge needed.
> I think that after 4 years of university an engineering graduate is 
supposed 
> to be capable of performing engineering tasks and not need yet 
another 4 years 
> hands on training before he or she is starting to be useful. Who 
would you 
> hire? A 4 year grad that spent 4 years or one that spent only 2 years 
on the 
> subject?
> As mentioned before, the liberal arts education is better placed in 
elementary 
> and high schools and I think 13 years ought to be enough to learn and 
master 
> what is needed. If someone decides that more training in writing or 
reading or 
> math is needed, fine, take an extra course or two. I'm not saying 
that those 
> courses are useless or a waste of time, I just think that they ought 
to be 
> considered extra and not be part of a degree program. Ajai described 
it nicely 
> in his replies and he may just be right that the perspective that we 
have of 
> knowing both systems allows us to see the difference.
> 
> > Vocational training is all well and good and yes, does make 
> > attractive "workers", but will not replace a solid well rounded 
> > university education.  
> 
> That is because also the vocational training here in the US generally 
sucks. I 
> spent three and a half years as radio- and TV technician apprentice. 
I worked 
> in a business and also spent considerable amounts of times in 
specialiced 
> schools. We not only learned the theory, math and science needed, but 
also 
> business economics, occupational safety and additional hands-on work. 
We 
> learned how to make circuit boards, how to drill them, how to bend, 
cut, and 
> drill metals and other materials. While working in the business I did 
not just 
> sit in the shop fixing TVs and VCRs, but also sold devices, went out 
to 
> customers, and installed cable TV and satellite dishes. That means I 
also had 
> to learn how to open and close roofs and install electric outlets 
following 
> code. I even got the same basic training as an electrician. I don't 
know how 
> it is in NY, but in CT you don't need any of that in order to even 
open a TV 
> repair business. I germany you need a craftsmen's masters degree for 
that, 
> which means more schooling and tests. And that is the norm at least 
for the 
> past 60 years. I prefer that, especially when it is for example for a 
car 
> mechanic. I want someone with proper training to fix my breaks and 
not just 
> some schmuck off the street who knows what a wrench is good for. I 
know that 
> the shops here in NYS need a special license, but I do not know what 
that 
> includes. I know from other states that the "licensing" includes 
paying a fee 
> and nothing else.
> 
> See, the US has excellent universities like MIT, CIT, Harvard, Yale, 
but can 
> these universities produce enough graduates to satisfy the needs of 
the US 
> industry? Definitely not, so all the other universities need to fill 
the void 
> and when you look at the rankings of the other US universities in 
> international comparison others tend to be better or as good. I did 
look at 
> the various international rankings. Universities in non-english 
speaking 
> countries tend to show up around the 30th place and below. Excellent 
> universities like IIT were even absent on the lists I've seen. I did 
see 
> Leiden and Barcelona in some, but so far at the bottom that I wonder 
if 
> language and location played a role. There seems to be no fully 
independent 
> organisation that compares universities.
> 
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Apr 19 16:13:46 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:13:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208634828.31948@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191559400.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Kristina Anderson wrote:

> Yes, that is what I was referring to and you are right, the educational 
> system has to change over time to meet society's needs...but right now 
> in the US we have this particular system still in place.

So, what you're saying is that the US hasn't adapted as much as other 
wstern European nations in their attitudes of higher education.

> And also I feel there is a lot of transferability between liberal arts 
> and any field one chooses to go into...for instance, I studied the 
> structure and usage of human languages...now I use different 
> programming languages and they have similarities and differences just 
> as human languages do...and then I spent 7 (of the most boring) years 
> of my life proofreading and editing legal contracts...which taught me 
> patience to wade through tons of code (which isn't exactly stimulating 
> reading either in most cases!!), and a careful eye for detail.  So I 
> feel that even if it's not "vocational," there is a place for liberal 
> arts in education and it's not a waste of time to study it on the 
> university level.

I could also argue that any programmer who has used several 
programming languages would have those skills regardless of whether they 
took liberal arts courses or not. It comes with experience.

> school life)...and still they would not let me enroll.  Hopefully 
> things have changed a bit since then.

They would not "let" you enroll? You mean, registering and paying your 
fees would be blocked? By who? The Police?

I started college at the end of the 80s and my CS class did include women. 
Again, this is in the UK so maybe your comment about the system still 
being in place in the US (and thus any institutionalized prejudices too) 
may have something to do with that.

It should be noted that in general, if you look at the numbers, 
undergraduates in science, math and related technical fields have been on 
a download path in the US since the bust 2001. Those occupations are 
perceived as not "safe" so generally numbers are down (and hence numbers 
of females too).



-- 
Aj.



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 19 16:28:12 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:28:12 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208636892.11558@coral.he.net>

Ajai, I think you misunderstood grossly several points I was trying to 
make.

i.e.
> I could also argue that any programmer who has used several 
> programming languages would have those skills regardless of whether 
they 
> took liberal arts courses or not. It comes with experience.

(I hope you would not waste your time "arguing" over something so 
glaringly obvious.  My point was that these skills are learnable in 
different ways, not just through a CS major).

Also, in case you are not familiar, public high schools in the US do 
not charge "fees" -- but are supported by government funds and tax 
dollars from property taxes -- and the school administration can make 
policies about which classes are open to which students, and they were 
within their rights at the time to refuse enrollment in certain classes 
to female students.  They also required at that time "home economics" 
for girls and "shop classes" for boys.  We were not allowed to choose 
which one we wanted, but were assigned based on gender.
 
-- Kristina

> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Yes, that is what I was referring to and you are right, the 
educational 
> > system has to change over time to meet society's needs...but right 
now 
> > in the US we have this particular system still in place.
> 
> So, what you're saying is that the US hasn't adapted as much as other 
> wstern European nations in their attitudes of higher education.
> 
> > And also I feel there is a lot of transferability between liberal 
arts 
> > and any field one chooses to go into...for instance, I studied the 
> > structure and usage of human languages...now I use different 
> > programming languages and they have similarities and differences 
just 
> > as human languages do...and then I spent 7 (of the most boring) 
years 
> > of my life proofreading and editing legal contracts...which taught 
me 
> > patience to wade through tons of code (which isn't exactly 
stimulating 
> > reading either in most cases!!), and a careful eye for detail.  So 
I 
> > feel that even if it's not "vocational," there is a place for 
liberal 
> > arts in education and it's not a waste of time to study it on the 
> > university level.
> 
> I could also argue that any programmer who has used several 
> programming languages would have those skills regardless of whether 
they 
> took liberal arts courses or not. It comes with experience.
> 
> > school life)...and still they would not let me enroll.  Hopefully 
> > things have changed a bit since then.
> 
> They would not "let" you enroll? You mean, registering and paying 
your 
> fees would be blocked? By who? The Police?
> 
> I started college at the end of the 80s and my CS class did include 
women. 
> Again, this is in the UK so maybe your comment about the system still 
> being in place in the US (and thus any institutionalized prejudices 
too) 
> may have something to do with that.
> 
> It should be noted that in general, if you look at the numbers, 
> undergraduates in science, math and related technical fields have 
been on 
> a download path in the US since the bust 2001. Those occupations are 
> perceived as not "safe" so generally numbers are down (and hence 
numbers 
> of females too).
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Aj.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Apr 19 17:06:52 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:06:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208636892.11558@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804191657080.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Kristina Anderson wrote:

> Also, in case you are not familiar, public high schools in the US do 
> not charge "fees" -- but are supported by government funds and tax 
> dollars from property taxes -- and the school administration can make 
> policies about which classes are open to which students, and they were 
> within their rights at the time to refuse enrollment in certain classes 
> to female students.

I was referring to college not high schoola. But what you're saying is 
amazing to me. UK schools are also government funded but noone has as much 
control over who can do what. If a female student wanted to do science 
there's noone stopping her. Sounds very backwardc if you ask me...

> They also required at that time "home economics" 
> for girls and "shop classes" for boys.  We were not allowed to choose 
> which one we wanted, but were assigned based on gender.

Wow. Unbelievable.


-- 
Aj.



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 19 17:22:07 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:22:07 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208640127.25812@coral.he.net>

Ajai -- in order to choose a math or science type of major at the 
university, students were required to have taken Physics in HS.  So 
refusing me permission to do the senior year Physics course in HS 
effectively left me out of that option.

Bearing in mind this was 30 years ago and I do HOPE things have changed.

> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Also, in case you are not familiar, public high schools in the US 
do 
> > not charge "fees" -- but are supported by government funds and tax 
> > dollars from property taxes -- and the school administration can 
make 
> > policies about which classes are open to which students, and they 
were 
> > within their rights at the time to refuse enrollment in certain 
classes 
> > to female students.
> 
> I was referring to college not high schoola. But what you're saying 
is 
> amazing to me. UK schools are also government funded but noone has as 
much 
> control over who can do what. If a female student wanted to do 
science 
> there's noone stopping her. Sounds very backwardc if you ask me...
> 
> > They also required at that time "home economics" 
> > for girls and "shop classes" for boys.  We were not allowed to 
choose 
> > which one we wanted, but were assigned based on gender.
> 
> Wow. Unbelievable.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Aj.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From ramons at gmx.net  Sat Apr 19 18:03:34 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:03:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208640127.25812@coral.he.net>
References: <1208640127.25812@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <480A6C36.6020402@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Ajai -- in order to choose a math or science type of major at the 
> university, students were required to have taken Physics in HS.  So 
> refusing me permission to do the senior year Physics course in HS 
> effectively left me out of that option.
> 
> Bearing in mind this was 30 years ago and I do HOPE things have changed.

Yes, they did. But this was common in Germany, too,  when my parents went to 
school. My aunt was lucky, she went to school right after the war and there 
was a teacher shortage. They just didn't have the staff to teach different 
classes. This is why she had geometry and algebra with the boys, something she 
really appreciated when she later worked as a taylor. She once had to make 
triangular and octogonal pillow covers. Among her staff she was the only one 
who could figure out how to place the pieces on the cloth to lessen waste.
When I went to high school we had all classes together, including PE. That was 
normal for us. We also had two years of "textile sculpturing" (couldn't find a 
better translation). It was like art class, but with textiles only. This is 
where I learned how to sow on buttons and make neat seams. Came in handy a few 
days ago when my son squeezed his teddy a bit too much and the back popped 
open. He was happy that I could do emergency surgery on his teddy. :)
Broad education is great....in high school!

David


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 19 18:55:24 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:55:24 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208645724.21270@coral.he.net>

David, I have to say, I do plan on returning to school at one point for 
my Ph.D...but it won't be in CS or any "vocational" field.   I have 
several things in mind but they're all extremely impractical. :)

The only "vocational" type of education I can see myself getting is a 
law degree if I ever, in the years I have left, do decide to pursue 
that...but we'll see how this programming thing pans out!

Also -- re our classes:  We had geometry and algebra and chemistry and 
bio --  but the calculus and physics were "for the boys". LOL!
I guess they were very afraid we'd start burning our bras and building 
nuclear weapons in our kitchens??

--Kristina


> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Ajai -- in order to choose a math or science type of major at the 
> > university, students were required to have taken Physics in HS.  So 
> > refusing me permission to do the senior year Physics course in HS 
> > effectively left me out of that option.
> > 
> > Bearing in mind this was 30 years ago and I do HOPE things have 
changed.
> 
> Yes, they did. But this was common in Germany, too,  when my parents 
went to 
> school. My aunt was lucky, she went to school right after the war and 
there 
> was a teacher shortage. They just didn't have the staff to teach 
different 
> classes. This is why she had geometry and algebra with the boys, 
something she 
> really appreciated when she later worked as a taylor. She once had to 
make 
> triangular and octogonal pillow covers. Among her staff she was the 
only one 
> who could figure out how to place the pieces on the cloth to lessen 
waste.
> When I went to high school we had all classes together, including PE. 
That was 
> normal for us. We also had two years of "textile sculpturing" 
(couldn't find a 
> better translation). It was like art class, but with textiles only. 
This is 
> where I learned how to sow on buttons and make neat seams. Came in 
handy a few 
> days ago when my son squeezed his teddy a bit too much and the back 
popped 
> open. He was happy that I could do emergency surgery on his teddy. :)
> Broad education is great....in high school!
> 
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From urb at e-government.com  Sun Apr 20 07:00:10 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 07:00:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <p06240801c42fa92bfb1a@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416080537.02c470b0@e-government.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181719210.15831-100000@bitblit.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080419080210.012b4008@e-government.com>
	<p06240801c42fa92bfb1a@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420064535.03174de8@e-government.com>


>Your view on profession is limited and shortsighted. Now with the 
>global scope of Internet programming and communication technology 
>changing as fast as it is, there could never be any licensing 
>authority to set in judgement of this profession -- let alone to be 
>sanctioned by the global community.

         I'm not so sure. Do you think communications technology is 
changing faster that tax laws?

>The point being that the term "profession" has outgrown its definition.

         Would you, and the general public, not consider Medical 
Doctors, Dentists, CPA, Certified Architect,
and Lawyers professionals? As you correctly point out the definition 
of a professions is a moving target
varying by profession.

         The real problem, as I see it, is that programming is not 
about syntax. Someone pointed out that they
would do poorly on a programming test because they don't memorize 
what is available in a manual. Creative
problem solving, system conceptualization and programmatic insight 
are the characteristics separating the
great programmers for the good programmers.

         When I was in college I took a non-computer course called 
Creative Problem Solving. It had more
influence on my programming, by far, than any computer course I took.

>As far as being an elitist or pragmatist, I really don't think your 
>words reflect a pragmatistic view.

         I'll have to work on that :-)

         BTW, how does one change the subject when a response clearly 
doesn't match the current
subject. I arbitrarily did that one time and was corrected.


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From tedd at sperling.com  Sun Apr 20 09:04:10 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:04:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208645724.21270@coral.he.net>
References: <1208645724.21270@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240804c430ed705c05@[192.168.1.101]>

At 3:55 PM -0700 4/19/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>The only "vocational" type of education I can see myself getting is a
>law degree if I ever, in the years I have left, do decide to pursue
>that...but we'll see how this programming thing pans out!

Most lawyers don't do much but practice the same thing over and over. 
At least programming allows you to do things never done before.

>Also -- re our classes:  We had geometry and algebra and chemistry and
>bio --  but the calculus and physics were "for the boys". LOL!
>I guess they were very afraid we'd start burning our bras and building
>nuclear weapons in our kitchens??

Well, of course, that's always been a concern. What you do with your 
bra is up to you, but we have to draw the line at building nuclear 
weapons in your kitchen. After all, it might spread to other rooms 
and who knows what might happen there. :-)

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Apr 20 12:24:50 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:24:50 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Message-ID: <1208708690.21825@coral.he.net>


Tedd -- I've spent a LOT of time this week enumerating variables and 
dumping them out of $_POST arrays, and building sql strings...it's 
starting to seem a LITTLE monotonous...but nowhere near as monotonous 
as being a lawyer...!!

Which does go back to one of our (original) topics on this 
thread...that lawyers get more respect and money when what they do just 
doesn't require more brainpower than programming.   (At least I think 
that was one of the original topics...can't remember that far back!)

The bottom line is, whatever we have to do to increase the status and 
prestige of our profession, we have to do.  The only problem is that 
getting a roomful of programmers to AGREE on anything has never been 
done before!!! :)

-- Kristina

PS Nuclear weapons don't interest me, but I've always wanted to build a 
time machine.

> At 3:55 PM -0700 4/19/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >The only "vocational" type of education I can see myself getting is a
> >law degree if I ever, in the years I have left, do decide to pursue
> >that...but we'll see how this programming thing pans out!
> 
> Most lawyers don't do much but practice the same thing over and over. 
> At least programming allows you to do things never done before.
> 
> >Also -- re our classes:  We had geometry and algebra and chemistry 
and
> >bio --  but the calculus and physics were "for the boys". LOL!
> >I guess they were very afraid we'd start burning our bras and 
building
> >nuclear weapons in our kitchens??
> 
> Well, of course, that's always been a concern. What you do with your 
> bra is up to you, but we have to draw the line at building nuclear 
> weapons in your kitchen. After all, it might spread to other rooms 
> and who knows what might happen there. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> 



From randalrust at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 12:43:18 2008
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:43:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP and MySQL Connections
In-Reply-To: <20080414151314.GA4932@panix.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080414151314.GA4932@panix.com>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50804200943v4b61e5e2n6fcece38a79f370c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Daniel Convissor
<danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:

>  close() is called during PHP's cleanup process that happens at the
>  end of script execution.

OK, so if I don't have to *explicitly* tell the process to close, then
why do I keep getting a lot of threads that are Sleeping? And for a
long period of time? This is what is causing the slowdown on the
server. If I manually go into the DB and kill threads that have been
sleeping for a long time, then the system speeds back up.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com


From tgales at tgaconnect.com  Sun Apr 20 12:49:33 2008
From: tgales at tgaconnect.com (Tim Gales)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:49:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080419074028.02a2f800@e-government.com>
References: <1208361750.10824@coral.he.net>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0804181720440.15831-100000@bitblit.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080419074028.02a2f800@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <480B741D.9000808@tgaconnect.com>

Urb LeJeune wrote:
>
> Let me make a practical point. 10 years after the Financial Analysts
> Federation announced there Certified Financial Analysts (CFA) 
I think you mean 'Chartered Financial Analyst'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered_Financial_Analyst
> designation
> those so certified was making 56% more than their cohorts not certified.
There are three different levels of the CFA exam.
(an interesting side point, for people doing consulting, is the
definition of 'conflict of interest' and scenarios which do and do not
constitute a conflict in the level one CHA preparation material))
And you need four years of qualified experience.

"..,only 19 percent complete the entire three-test program.
?Many people [who start the CFA program] have not tasted failure in any
sort of testing or school environment,? Johnson explains. ?Once they 
realize
how rigorous it is and how high the standards are, many of them back away.?
-- Bob Johnson, Director. Education Divisionm CFA Institute
[http://career-advice.monster.com/job-promotion/finance/Is-the-CFA-Right-for-You/home.aspx] 


I would guess the main reason why there are so few CHA's is because
it is harder to get qualified than people think -- not that it isn't 
valuable.
(maybe I got what you meant wrong)

-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com



From ramons at gmx.net  Sun Apr 20 12:49:46 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:49:46 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP and MySQL Connections
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50804200943v4b61e5e2n6fcece38a79f370c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<20080414151314.GA4932@panix.com>
	<a9caffe50804200943v4b61e5e2n6fcece38a79f370c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480B742A.3080808@gmx.net>

Randal Rust wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Daniel Convissor
> <danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:
> 
>>  close() is called during PHP's cleanup process that happens at the
>>  end of script execution.
> 
> OK, so if I don't have to *explicitly* tell the process to close, then
> why do I keep getting a lot of threads that are Sleeping? And for a
> long period of time? This is what is causing the slowdown on the
> server. If I manually go into the DB and kill threads that have been
> sleeping for a long time, then the system speeds back up.


I am by no means an expert, by I always close the connections explicitly. My 
understanding is that the connection gets closed eventually, but by MySQL 
itself after a time out period. I'd just send the close commands and see that 
the connections are closed in a controlled fashion that I can influence. I am 
sure the one command more will be way less overhead than MySQL holding on to 
idle connections that never will be used again.

David


From ajai at bitblit.net  Sun Apr 20 12:57:04 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:57:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420064535.03174de8@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804201250550.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008, Urb LeJeune wrote:

>          I'm not so sure. Do you think communications technology is 
> changing faster that tax laws?

So fast that the law can't keep up. That's why stupid bills get passed - 
most politicians dont understand the implications of what they're 
passing...


-- 
Aj.



From randalrust at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 12:59:16 2008
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:59:16 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP and MySQL Connections
In-Reply-To: <480B742A.3080808@gmx.net>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080414151314.GA4932@panix.com>
	<a9caffe50804200943v4b61e5e2n6fcece38a79f370c@mail.gmail.com>
	<480B742A.3080808@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50804200959x41ba4ec9m188b2eff0cab1d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:

>  I am by no means an expert, by I always close the connections explicitly.
> My understanding is that the connection gets closed eventually, but by MySQL
> itself after a time out period.

OK, that makes sense. I didn't want to do that just yet, because
things have been running fairly well since I ditched persistent
connections.

The curious thing is that MySQL doesn't seem to be cleaning them up. I
checked last night, and there were some threads that had been in sleep
for more than 7,000 (seconds?).

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com


From ajai at bitblit.net  Sun Apr 20 13:00:36 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208708690.21825@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804201258020.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008, Kristina Anderson wrote:

> The only problem is that 
> getting a roomful of programmers to AGREE on anything has never been 
> done before!!! :)

Or lawyers!

> PS Nuclear weapons don't interest me, but I've always wanted to build a 
> time machine.

Not that there's anything to stop you, burnt bras be damned.


-- 
Aj.



From lists at zaunere.com  Sun Apr 20 13:26:41 2008
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:26:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP and MySQL Connections
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50804200959x41ba4ec9m188b2eff0cab1d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50804110351i527bed4fn4fb3a63c13551b85@mail.gmail.com>	<20080414151314.GA4932@panix.com>	<a9caffe50804200943v4b61e5e2n6fcece38a79f370c@mail.gmail.com>	<480B742A.3080808@gmx.net>
	<a9caffe50804200959x41ba4ec9m188b2eff0cab1d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008301c8a30b$b29ef9f0$17dcedd0$@com>

> >  I am by no means an expert, by I always close the connections
explicitly.
> > My understanding is that the connection gets closed eventually, but by
MySQL
> > itself after a time out period.
> 
> OK, that makes sense. I didn't want to do that just yet, because
> things have been running fairly well since I ditched persistent
> connections.

There are a couple of factors here.

-- when the Apache process actually terminates, because of Apache's process
settings

-- when the PHP script "shutsdown" which should typically mysql_close() the
connections to MySQL

-- when MySQL will kill a connection thread because of thread-reuse/caching
settings

> The curious thing is that MySQL doesn't seem to be cleaning them up. I
> checked last night, and there were some threads that had been in sleep
> for more than 7,000 (seconds?).

That does seem like a long time.  On the mysql server, do show variables
like '%thread%'; and show status like '%thread%';

See if anything looks out of wack as far as configuration and server stats
go.  Are these threads being reused (check the thread ID).

Is this a high-load server?  You may want to try to restart Apache - if this
then kills those threads from sleeping, you've isolated it to something in
Apache/PHP.  These aren't persistent connections right?  There was a bug
sometime ago in glibc (if I remember correctly) that prevented connections
from closing correctly, but this likely isn't the problem so double check
the PHP code/config.

H




From tedd at sperling.com  Sun Apr 20 15:40:39 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:40:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
In-Reply-To: <1208708690.21825@coral.he.net>
References: <1208708690.21825@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240801c43148dc00a0@[192.168.1.101]>

At 9:24 AM -0700 4/20/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>The bottom line is, whatever we have to do to increase the status and
>prestige of our profession, we have to do.

The only things you have to do is: a) to be good at what you do; b) 
help others; c) and be humble (my hardest) -- the rest will follow.

As for status and prestige -- who cares? Been there, done that, and 
it doesn't matter nor help. Either people are going to hold you in 
esteem, or not. But, there's nothing you can do change their view 
except be as good as you can be. It helps if you don't place too much 
value in what other people think. The only people you have to answer 
to are your clients -- as it should be.

>The only problem is that
>getting a roomful of programmers to AGREE on anything has never been
>done before!!! :)

That's where you're looking at this the wrong way -- it's not what's 
new in programming, but rather a new way to apply programming to the 
real world.

For example, I was the first nationally recognized micro-computer 
programmer to find oil with my software. I could go on with my 
accomplishments, but there's no need to bore anyone. If you're 
interested, please review my resume on my site.

It's not the method, but the application that's new.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From david at davidmintz.org  Mon Apr 21 10:34:47 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 10:34:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT?] inconsistent html email display
In-Reply-To: <48098C2E.1010606@nopersonal.info>
References: <721f1cc50804180856j4f61483fp56a17af7197ba170@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690804180913m6300cb99p19427756af3a1f35@mail.gmail.com>
	<721f1cc50804181054n3a75447dif6e404acebad48b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<48098C2E.1010606@nopersonal.info>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804210734m28c31807y82f565b64088a982@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, useful to know. I thought (unthinkingly) that it was ok since I as
author and owner of the external sheet know that it's not evil. But the user
agent doesn't know that (duh). Perhaps I was also thinking it's like images
-- in many clients, blocked unless the user explicitly allows them.

Thanks!

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:07 AM, BAS <lists at nopersonal.info> wrote:

> David Mintz wrote:
>
> > I'm not styling with class attributes, but I am linking to my own
> > stylesheet via fully qualified URL -- is that a crime or something?
> >
>
> Hi David,
>
> I'll second what John said--yes, external stylesheets are evil and will
> give you nothing but grief in HTML emails.
>
> CSS support in HTML email is highly unpredictable & buggy--much more so
> than in browsers, and it's only gotten worse with the advent of Outlook
> 2007.
>
> The best resource I know of is at:
>
> http://www.campaignmonitor.com/blog/archives/2007/04/a_guide_to_css_support_in_emai_2.html
>
> It contains an accurate, up-to-date, exhaustive list of CSS support in all
> major email clients (PC & Mac), as well as the webmail-based stuff like
> GMail, Windows Live Mail, etc.
>
> Bev
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 11:17:52 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:17:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT?] inconsistent html email display
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804210734m28c31807y82f565b64088a982@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804180856j4f61483fp56a17af7197ba170@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690804180913m6300cb99p19427756af3a1f35@mail.gmail.com>
	<721f1cc50804181054n3a75447dif6e404acebad48b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<48098C2E.1010606@nopersonal.info>
	<721f1cc50804210734m28c31807y82f565b64088a982@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804210817r2ed49bb8xf5f68c736782cf67@mail.gmail.com>

My best tip is to go get an older version of FrontPage and use that.
Microsoft's lack of respect for web standards and general crappyness
makes for a perfect html email generator.  You want to use tables for
the layout, and all of the css should be inline.  Even a <style> tag
in the head is not well supported.

I also recommend choosing a layout that works with both images and css
turned off.  It requires extra time to make something that degrades
nicely, but it is worth the effort when it comes to email.

Regards,
John C.


From bmartin at mac.com  Tue Apr 22 07:54:55 2008
From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:54:55 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
Message-ID: <27F56A93-669F-45FB-A941-696FC5308BC9@mac.com>

Hi, I just joined the list and thought I would introduce myself.

I have been programming since 1995, well before that if you include  
the years I spend toying with BASIC. I just recently started using  
PHP, I find it well thought out, although there are somethings that  
take some time to get use to, I guess the biggest is setting cookies.  
The challenge is due to the way I am using include and processing  
forms on a single page it takes me a while to find the place in the  
process to set the cookie. Other than that I am very pleased.

I come from a Mac background devoting many years to learning  
everything I can on the Mac, but I have programmed on the PC in VB 5  
and 6. and moved on before .NET. On the Mac side of things I mainly  
use SuperCard, I have tried other development environments including  
REALbasic, which I would say is a good alternative for X-platform  
development, but for pure Mac applications I lean on SuperCard. I also  
dabble in C and Objective-C from time to time, to extend the  
abilities, or make custom functions for SuperCard.

For web development I started using PERL, which I still like and use,  
but PHP may replace PERL for my web development efforts. I have also  
used JHTML and JSP. for a short time. I am also quite pleased with the  
way JavaScript has evolved.

I work for a web site called Beliefnet, which was recently acquired by  
FOX Digital Media.

Well, I guess that is enough for now, I look forward to getting in on  
the discussions.


Bruce Martin
The Martin Solution
bruce at martinsolution.com
http://www.martinsolution.com
http://externals.martinsolution.com



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From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 09:13:19 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:13:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <27F56A93-669F-45FB-A941-696FC5308BC9@mac.com>
References: <27F56A93-669F-45FB-A941-696FC5308BC9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804220613w528c74f6jf3fc1f90d79e1915@mail.gmail.com>

The cookie problem you're having, have you considered using a
framework to take the guess work out of when it is appropriate to set
a cookie (ie send a header)? Using a consistent method for processing
requests and delivering pages will often make the whole issue trivial.

I would suggest the Zend Framework (framework.zend.com).

- jake

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com> wrote:
> Hi, I just joined the list and thought I would introduce myself.
>
> I have been programming since 1995, well before that if you include the
> years I spend toying with BASIC. I just recently started using PHP, I find
> it well thought out, although there are somethings that take some time to
> get use to, I guess the biggest is setting cookies. The challenge is due to
> the way I am using include and processing forms on a single page it takes me
> a while to find the place in the process to set the cookie. Other than that
> I am very pleased.
>
> I come from a Mac background devoting many years to learning everything I
> can on the Mac, but I have programmed on the PC in VB 5 and 6. and moved on
> before .NET. On the Mac side of things I mainly use SuperCard, I have tried
> other development environments including REALbasic, which I would say is a
> good alternative for X-platform development, but for pure Mac applications I
> lean on SuperCard. I also dabble in C and Objective-C from time to time, to
> extend the abilities, or make custom functions for SuperCard.
>
> For web development I started using PERL, which I still like and use, but
> PHP may replace PERL for my web development efforts. I have also used JHTML
> and JSP. for a short time. I am also quite pleased with the way JavaScript
> has evolved.
>
> I work for a web site called Beliefnet, which was recently acquired by FOX
> Digital Media.
>
> Well, I guess that is enough for now, I look forward to getting in on the
> discussions.
>
>
>
>
> Bruce Martin
> The Martin Solution
> bruce at martinsolution.com
> http://www.martinsolution.com
> http://externals.martinsolution.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From ben at projectskyline.com  Tue Apr 22 09:22:07 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804220613w528c74f6jf3fc1f90d79e1915@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27F56A93-669F-45FB-A941-696FC5308BC9@mac.com>
	<e065b8610804220613w528c74f6jf3fc1f90d79e1915@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480DE67F.4030804@projectskyline.com>

Welcome!!!

+1 Zend framework. Starting using it a few weeks ago. Really enjoying it.

- Ben

Jake McGraw wrote:
> The cookie problem you're having, have you considered using a
> framework to take the guess work out of when it is appropriate to set
> a cookie (ie send a header)? Using a consistent method for processing
> requests and delivering pages will often make the whole issue trivial.
>
> I would suggest the Zend Framework (framework.zend.com).
>
> - jake
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com> wrote:
>   
>> Hi, I just joined the list and thought I would introduce myself.
>>
>> I have been programming since 1995, well before that if you include the
>> years I spend toying with BASIC. I just recently started using PHP, I find
>> it well thought out, although there are somethings that take some time to
>> get use to, I guess the biggest is setting cookies. The challenge is due to
>> the way I am using include and processing forms on a single page it takes me
>> a while to find the place in the process to set the cookie. Other than that
>> I am very pleased.
>>
>> I come from a Mac background devoting many years to learning everything I
>> can on the Mac, but I have programmed on the PC in VB 5 and 6. and moved on
>> before .NET. On the Mac side of things I mainly use SuperCard, I have tried
>> other development environments including REALbasic, which I would say is a
>> good alternative for X-platform development, but for pure Mac applications I
>> lean on SuperCard. I also dabble in C and Objective-C from time to time, to
>> extend the abilities, or make custom functions for SuperCard.
>>
>> For web development I started using PERL, which I still like and use, but
>> PHP may replace PERL for my web development efforts. I have also used JHTML
>> and JSP. for a short time. I am also quite pleased with the way JavaScript
>> has evolved.
>>
>> I work for a web site called Beliefnet, which was recently acquired by FOX
>> Digital Media.
>>
>> Well, I guess that is enough for now, I look forward to getting in on the
>> discussions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce Martin
>> The Martin Solution
>> bruce at martinsolution.com
>> http://www.martinsolution.com
>> http://externals.martinsolution.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   


From bmartin at mac.com  Tue Apr 22 09:22:40 2008
From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804220613w528c74f6jf3fc1f90d79e1915@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27F56A93-669F-45FB-A941-696FC5308BC9@mac.com>
	<e065b8610804220613w528c74f6jf3fc1f90d79e1915@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D3C23E0B-0CB7-4A17-9026-8FDB510594CE@mac.com>

Thanks, I'll look into it. Often when I start out with a different  
language I try to stick to writing my own code, so I can get to know  
the language itself. Then after at least one project I find my way to  
using the libs or frameworks. I will look into the Zend Framework  
though, it sounds interesting.

Bruce Martin
The Martin Solution
bruce at martinsolution.com
http://www.martinsolution.com
http://externals.martinsolution.com



On Apr 22, 2008, at 9:13 AM, Jake McGraw wrote:

> The cookie problem you're having, have you considered using a
> framework to take the guess work out of when it is appropriate to set
> a cookie (ie send a header)? Using a consistent method for processing
> requests and delivering pages will often make the whole issue trivial.
>
> I would suggest the Zend Framework (framework.zend.com).
>
> - jake
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com> wrote:
>> Hi, I just joined the list and thought I would introduce myself.
>>
>> I have been programming since 1995, well before that if you include  
>> the
>> years I spend toying with BASIC. I just recently started using PHP,  
>> I find
>> it well thought out, although there are somethings that take some  
>> time to
>> get use to, I guess the biggest is setting cookies. The challenge  
>> is due to
>> the way I am using include and processing forms on a single page it  
>> takes me
>> a while to find the place in the process to set the cookie. Other  
>> than that
>> I am very pleased.
>>
>> I come from a Mac background devoting many years to learning  
>> everything I
>> can on the Mac, but I have programmed on the PC in VB 5 and 6. and  
>> moved on
>> before .NET. On the Mac side of things I mainly use SuperCard, I  
>> have tried
>> other development environments including REALbasic, which I would  
>> say is a
>> good alternative for X-platform development, but for pure Mac  
>> applications I
>> lean on SuperCard. I also dabble in C and Objective-C from time to  
>> time, to
>> extend the abilities, or make custom functions for SuperCard.
>>
>> For web development I started using PERL, which I still like and  
>> use, but
>> PHP may replace PERL for my web development efforts. I have also  
>> used JHTML
>> and JSP. for a short time. I am also quite pleased with the way  
>> JavaScript
>> has evolved.
>>
>> I work for a web site called Beliefnet, which was recently acquired  
>> by FOX
>> Digital Media.
>>
>> Well, I guess that is enough for now, I look forward to getting in  
>> on the
>> discussions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce Martin
>> The Martin Solution
>> bruce at martinsolution.com
>> http://www.martinsolution.com
>> http://externals.martinsolution.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

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From ajai at bitblit.net  Tue Apr 22 09:57:54 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:57:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <D3C23E0B-0CB7-4A17-9026-8FDB510594CE@mac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804220956410.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008, Bruce Martin wrote:

> Thanks, I'll look into it. Often when I start out with a different  
> language I try to stick to writing my own code, so I can get to know  
> the language itself. Then after at least one project I find my way to  
> using the libs or frameworks. I will look into the Zend Framework  
> though, it sounds interesting.

Also see http://www.symfony-project.com - we are using it to build some 
large web sites.


-- 
Aj.



From erik at hecanjog.com  Tue Apr 22 10:04:24 2008
From: erik at hecanjog.com (Erik Schoster)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:04:24 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804220956410.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804220956410.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <BC717572-CA14-43A5-87AF-3922BF462DEB@hecanjog.com>

I can attest to symfony.  As someone who forced themselves to shirk  
frameworks while I learned PHP, I do enjoy a good framework.  Symfony  
has impressed me recently.

Erik

On Apr 22, 2008, at 8:57 AM, Ajai Khattri wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Apr 2008, Bruce Martin wrote:
>
>> Thanks, I'll look into it. Often when I start out with a different
>> language I try to stick to writing my own code, so I can get to know
>> the language itself. Then after at least one project I find my way to
>> using the libs or frameworks. I will look into the Zend Framework
>> though, it sounds interesting.
>
> Also see http://www.symfony-project.com - we are using it to build  
> some
> large web sites.
>
>
> -- 
> Aj.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

Erik






From nayefae at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 10:33:00 2008
From: nayefae at gmail.com (Nayef Abu Ebaid)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:33:00 +0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <BC717572-CA14-43A5-87AF-3922BF462DEB@hecanjog.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804220956410.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<BC717572-CA14-43A5-87AF-3922BF462DEB@hecanjog.com>
Message-ID: <480DF71C.7040602@gmail.com>

I would go for Zend Frame work, in our company we used (Code Igniter, 
Symfony, and Zend Frame). Zend is the best and very powerful.

Erik Schoster wrote:
> I can attest to symfony.  As someone who forced themselves to shirk 
> frameworks while I learned PHP, I do enjoy a good framework.  Symfony 
> has impressed me recently.
>
> Erik
>
> On Apr 22, 2008, at 8:57 AM, Ajai Khattri wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 22 Apr 2008, Bruce Martin wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, I'll look into it. Often when I start out with a different
>>> language I try to stick to writing my own code, so I can get to know
>>> the language itself. Then after at least one project I find my way to
>>> using the libs or frameworks. I will look into the Zend Framework
>>> though, it sounds interesting.
>>
>> Also see http://www.symfony-project.com - we are using it to build some
>> large web sites.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Aj.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
> Erik
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 22 10:51:22 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:51:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer 
Message-ID: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>

It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and instruments
already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and application
of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've got
on hand.

For example:

a) we have the very large and well-recognized repository of PHP work for
reference and re-use at Sourceforge.net and PEAR, 
b) we have the very well used and respected Php.net as large-scale
reference hub,  
c) we have Zend offering a commercialized IDE/framework and other
enterprise updates to PHP 
d) we have a handful of large free PHP user groups and these groups, say
the top 10, should be formally recognized, and one should be expected to
belong to one of these groups.

So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to use
these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert, the
Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and code. 

We would not deny the use of, learning of, or the amicable co-existence
of any and all other outlets/entities, but the above noted entities
would be the generalized initial standards.

So as a new programmer in books/classes/tutorials you are always pointed
to Php.net for reference, you are behooved to use from and contribute to
Sourceforge.net/PEAR, you are prompted/guided/expected to join a listed
user group, and you are advised to get Zend cert and learn that
IDE/framework. 

And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user group
member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
credentials/resume.

Just a thought. Now that could be a start.

Warmest regards, 
?
Peter Sawczynec 
Technology Dir.
Sun-code Interactive
Sun-code.com 
646.316.3678 
ps at sun-code.com





From ben at projectskyline.com  Tue Apr 22 11:01:52 2008
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:01:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
Message-ID: <480DFDE0.5050406@projectskyline.com>

Hello Peter/et all,

I agree with a lot of this. I've been thinking about the same thing 
since the "OT Webmaster Test" thread started.

Some kind of move like this would surely help increase the quality of 
software and allow those
new to a project to become productive more quickly.

This is basically what we are doing at my current place of employment.

We've agreed on the Zend Framework, the zend modules and coding style 
(albeit somewhat improved), along with the
the PEAR/PECL repositories.

We also hold brief meetings before making extensions to the Zend 
framework, and general problem solving sessions
are encouraged.

Where else can we go with this, both my company and PHP community in 
general to make it more
of a "respected and enforced" *standard*?


- Ben

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and instruments
> already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and application
> of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've got
> on hand.
>
> For example:
>
> a) we have the very large and well-recognized repository of PHP work for
> reference and re-use at Sourceforge.net and PEAR, 
> b) we have the very well used and respected Php.net as large-scale
> reference hub,  
> c) we have Zend offering a commercialized IDE/framework and other
> enterprise updates to PHP 
> d) we have a handful of large free PHP user groups and these groups, say
> the top 10, should be formally recognized, and one should be expected to
> belong to one of these groups.
>
> So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to use
> these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert, the
> Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and code. 
>
> We would not deny the use of, learning of, or the amicable co-existence
> of any and all other outlets/entities, but the above noted entities
> would be the generalized initial standards.
>
> So as a new programmer in books/classes/tutorials you are always pointed
> to Php.net for reference, you are behooved to use from and contribute to
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR, you are prompted/guided/expected to join a listed
> user group, and you are advised to get Zend cert and learn that
> IDE/framework. 
>
> And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user group
> member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> credentials/resume.
>
> Just a thought. Now that could be a start.
>
> Warmest regards, 
>  
> Peter Sawczynec 
> Technology Dir.
> Sun-code Interactive
> Sun-code.com 
> 646.316.3678 
> ps at sun-code.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   


From JasonS at innovationads.com  Tue Apr 22 11:06:11 2008
From: JasonS at innovationads.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:06:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <480DFDE0.5050406@projectskyline.com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
	<480DFDE0.5050406@projectskyline.com>
Message-ID: <5D7E5B842CD6134D949F787C0196E3D7022A16E1@INASREX019350.exmst.local>

I voice my vote in favor, as well, and offer my - and my company's - full support as needed. 

Jason Scott |?Chief Information Officer
233 Broadway, 21st Floor,?New York, NY 10279 
Ph: 212.509.5218 ext?226?|?Fax: 866-797-0971
innovationads.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Ben Sgro
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:02 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+Developer

Hello Peter/et all,

I agree with a lot of this. I've been thinking about the same thing 
since the "OT Webmaster Test" thread started.

Some kind of move like this would surely help increase the quality of 
software and allow those
new to a project to become productive more quickly.

This is basically what we are doing at my current place of employment.

We've agreed on the Zend Framework, the zend modules and coding style 
(albeit somewhat improved), along with the
the PEAR/PECL repositories.

We also hold brief meetings before making extensions to the Zend 
framework, and general problem solving sessions
are encouraged.

Where else can we go with this, both my company and PHP community in 
general to make it more
of a "respected and enforced" *standard*?


- Ben

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and instruments
> already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and application
> of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've got
> on hand.
>
> For example:
>
> a) we have the very large and well-recognized repository of PHP work for
> reference and re-use at Sourceforge.net and PEAR, 
> b) we have the very well used and respected Php.net as large-scale
> reference hub,  
> c) we have Zend offering a commercialized IDE/framework and other
> enterprise updates to PHP 
> d) we have a handful of large free PHP user groups and these groups, say
> the top 10, should be formally recognized, and one should be expected to
> belong to one of these groups.
>
> So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to use
> these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert, the
> Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and code. 
>
> We would not deny the use of, learning of, or the amicable co-existence
> of any and all other outlets/entities, but the above noted entities
> would be the generalized initial standards.
>
> So as a new programmer in books/classes/tutorials you are always pointed
> to Php.net for reference, you are behooved to use from and contribute to
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR, you are prompted/guided/expected to join a listed
> user group, and you are advised to get Zend cert and learn that
> IDE/framework. 
>
> And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user group
> member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> credentials/resume.
>
> Just a thought. Now that could be a start.
>
> Warmest regards, 
>  
> Peter Sawczynec 
> Technology Dir.
> Sun-code Interactive
> Sun-code.com 
> 646.316.3678 
> ps at sun-code.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

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From rolan at omnistep.com  Tue Apr 22 11:07:36 2008
From: rolan at omnistep.com (Rolan Yang)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:07:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
Message-ID: <480DFF38.1060601@omnistep.com>

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to use
> these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert, the
> Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and code. 
>
> We would not deny the use of, learning of, or the amicable co-existence
> of any and all other outlets/entities, but the above noted entities
> would be the generalized initial standards.
>
> ....
>
>   
What governing body would have the authority to grant the "medal of 
standards" to these entities? Also,  how often would the new candidates 
be reviewed, should say.. something better than PEAR bubble up to the top?

~Rolan




From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 22 11:14:41 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:14:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <480DFDE0.5050406@projectskyline.com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
	<480DFDE0.5050406@projectskyline.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c8a48b$970dc2d0$c5294870$@com>

I believe that every person/entity that could put
academic/professional/commercial/author weight behind the formalization
of this idea is on this list. Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Ben Sgro
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:02 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer

Hello Peter/et all,

I agree with a lot of this. I've been thinking about the same thing 
since the "OT Webmaster Test" thread started.

Some kind of move like this would surely help increase the quality of 
software and allow those
new to a project to become productive more quickly.

This is basically what we are doing at my current place of employment.

We've agreed on the Zend Framework, the zend modules and coding style 
(albeit somewhat improved), along with the
the PEAR/PECL repositories.

We also hold brief meetings before making extensions to the Zend 
framework, and general problem solving sessions
are encouraged.

Where else can we go with this, both my company and PHP community in 
general to make it more
of a "respected and enforced" *standard*?


- Ben

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and
instruments
> already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and
application
> of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've
got
> on hand.
>
> For example:
>
> a) we have the very large and well-recognized repository of PHP work
for
> reference and re-use at Sourceforge.net and PEAR, 
> b) we have the very well used and respected Php.net as large-scale
> reference hub,  
> c) we have Zend offering a commercialized IDE/framework and other
> enterprise updates to PHP 
> d) we have a handful of large free PHP user groups and these groups,
say
> the top 10, should be formally recognized, and one should be expected
to
> belong to one of these groups.
>
> So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to
use
> these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert,
the
> Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and
code. 
>
> We would not deny the use of, learning of, or the amicable
co-existence
> of any and all other outlets/entities, but the above noted entities
> would be the generalized initial standards.
>
> So as a new programmer in books/classes/tutorials you are always
pointed
> to Php.net for reference, you are behooved to use from and contribute
to
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR, you are prompted/guided/expected to join a
listed
> user group, and you are advised to get Zend cert and learn that
> IDE/framework. 
>
> And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user
group
> member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> credentials/resume.
>
> Just a thought. Now that could be a start.
>
> Warmest regards, 
>  
> Peter Sawczynec 
> Technology Dir.
> Sun-code Interactive
> Sun-code.com 
> 646.316.3678 
> ps at sun-code.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 22 11:18:14 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:18:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <480DFF38.1060601@omnistep.com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
	<480DFF38.1060601@omnistep.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c8a48c$15ed7780$41c86680$@com>

I believe that a starting point for a governing entity would be the
author of PHP (and/or his appointed representatives/associates), the
core developers of PHP itself (including Zend), and possibly the current
top-level leadership of the major User Groups. Review is annual as most
other such self-regulating bodies. Peter 

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Rolan Yang
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:08 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to
use
> these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert,
the
> Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and
code. 
>
> We would not deny the use of, learning of, or the amicable
co-existence
> of any and all other outlets/entities, but the above noted entities
> would be the generalized initial standards.
>
> ....
>
>   
What governing body would have the authority to grant the "medal of 
standards" to these entities? Also,  how often would the new candidates 
be reviewed, should say.. something better than PEAR bubble up to the
top?

~Rolan


_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From scott at crisscott.com  Tue Apr 22 11:46:34 2008
From: scott at crisscott.com (Scott Mattocks)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:46:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
Message-ID: <480E085A.3000501@crisscott.com>

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and instruments
> already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and application
> of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've got
> on hand.

Instead of trying to force a few applications, repositories and people 
into positions they are not ready for, would it not be better to 
organize efforts to contribute to those which are best suited to take 
those positions in the near future? A defacto standard is much more 
powerful than an appointed standard.

Instead of trying to convince everyone that PEAR is the best place to 
get reusable code, why not contribute to PEAR and remove all doubt? 
Instead of forcing everyone to sign up for a proprietary certification 
that does not have community support, why not create an open 
certification group that has the support of the community and gains 
community respect because of it? Don't just name user groups as 
something a programmer should be a member of, make them so valuable 
(through contributions of experience) that one will be foolish not to 
sign up.

If you can get a large group of people to take those steps, your dream 
of a well respected and formally recognized best practices and 
applications will follow.

-- 
Scott Mattocks
Author: Pro PHP-GTK
http://www.crisscott.com


From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 22 11:58:02 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:58:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <480E085A.3000501@crisscott.com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
	<480E085A.3000501@crisscott.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c8a491$a5610030$f0230090$@com>

I believe that all of the informal industry-standard acknowledgements
and accolades that you call for in your note have already been
informally applied to all the entities that you mention and that this
informal approved/sanctioned condition has existed for years for PEAR,
sourceforege.net, et al. This has not successfully gelled into a
reliable, knowable, useable set of standards that makes it possible for
programmers and managers to have a quantifiable standard to work up to
and within. I am still in the camp that PHP programmers like realtors,
financial planners should have an association approved path and tool set
that ultimately will have more knowable and strongly negotiable pay
scale. Peter

 

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Scott Mattocks
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:47 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and
instruments
> already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and
application
> of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've
got
> on hand.

Instead of trying to force a few applications, repositories and people 
into positions they are not ready for, would it not be better to 
organize efforts to contribute to those which are best suited to take 
those positions in the near future? A defacto standard is much more 
powerful than an appointed standard.

Instead of trying to convince everyone that PEAR is the best place to 
get reusable code, why not contribute to PEAR and remove all doubt? 
Instead of forcing everyone to sign up for a proprietary certification 
that does not have community support, why not create an open 
certification group that has the support of the community and gains 
community respect because of it? Don't just name user groups as 
something a programmer should be a member of, make them so valuable 
(through contributions of experience) that one will be foolish not to 
sign up.

If you can get a large group of people to take those steps, your dream 
of a well respected and formally recognized best practices and 
applications will follow.

-- 
Scott Mattocks
Author: Pro PHP-GTK
http://www.crisscott.com
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 22 12:05:00 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:05:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <480E085A.3000501@crisscott.com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
	<480E085A.3000501@crisscott.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c8a492$9eba9e70$dc2fdb50$@com>

I would have nothing against an independently created and sanctioned PHP
cert devised/approved by the author/core developers, but it seems that
would be a big waste of how far Zend has already taken things and it
does not seem like there is sufficient momentum/cohesion to firmly
establish such an independent entity or it would probably have appeared
by now. Peter 

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Scott Mattocks
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:47 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and
instruments
> already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and
application
> of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've
got
> on hand.

Instead of trying to force a few applications, repositories and people 
into positions they are not ready for, would it not be better to 
organize efforts to contribute to those which are best suited to take 
those positions in the near future? A defacto standard is much more 
powerful than an appointed standard.

Instead of trying to convince everyone that PEAR is the best place to 
get reusable code, why not contribute to PEAR and remove all doubt? 
Instead of forcing everyone to sign up for a proprietary certification 
that does not have community support, why not create an open 
certification group that has the support of the community and gains 
community respect because of it? Don't just name user groups as 
something a programmer should be a member of, make them so valuable 
(through contributions of experience) that one will be foolish not to 
sign up.

If you can get a large group of people to take those steps, your dream 
of a well respected and formally recognized best practices and 
applications will follow.

-- 
Scott Mattocks
Author: Pro PHP-GTK
http://www.crisscott.com
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From tgales at tgaconnect.com  Tue Apr 22 12:07:08 2008
From: tgales at tgaconnect.com (Tim Gales)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:07:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
Message-ID: <480E0D2C.8060601@tgaconnect.com>

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
[...]
> And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user group
> member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> credentials/resume.
>   
Is being Zend certified (alone) a big help?

-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com



From ajai at bitblit.net  Tue Apr 22 12:09:25 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:09:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <BC717572-CA14-43A5-87AF-3922BF462DEB@hecanjog.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804221208460.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008, Erik Schoster wrote:

> I can attest to symfony.  As someone who forced themselves to shirk  
> frameworks while I learned PHP, I do enjoy a good framework.  Symfony  
> has impressed me recently.

We're in good company (<cough>Yahoo</cough>).


:-)


-- 
Aj.



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Apr 22 12:34:40 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:34:40 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
	the	PHP+Developer
Message-ID: <1208882080.8098@coral.he.net>

>I am still in the camp that PHP programmers like realtors,
> financial planners should have an association approved path and tool 
set
> that ultimately will have more knowable and strongly negotiable pay
> scale.

YES!!  Yes yes yes.

Realistically speaking, though, nobody is going to like being "strongly 
urged" to use a particular framework or a particular code base.  And 
that's cool -- because we will always find ways to make the programming 
process "our own" and do it the way we feel is best, on a case by case 
basis.  

But as Peter pointed out, the cert is not really meant to lock us in 
to "standards", it's important so that we are able to say "I'm a 
certified PHP programmer and certified programmers get $XYZ per hour" 
and have the power to back that up when the suit types decide we might 
be a cost sink, or that we don't need a lot of money because "don't 
programmers all wear stained T shirts and exist on Pizza and computer 
games..."!   [N.B. It's quite true that I do eat a lot of pizza and 
enjoy playing computer games, especially the antique arcade variety, 
but that's not ALL I need!.]

With regard to Zend, I haven't used it yet but did some cursory reading 
on it today after seeing this thread...and it looks very interesting.  
Of particular value, I think, is the session & application state 
handling (which is always a huge chore and can lead to mental agony 
over "the very best way to handle it in this case") -- standardizing 
this into best practice could be huge.  I'd like to get a chance to 
work with some of this, and also the JSON/AJAX stuff ...I had an 
opportunity to work with JSON a couple years ago but not since then.

I did use PEAR::SOAP recently while working with some Amazon AWS stuff 
and found the code to be very understandable and well documented.  
Ultimately we discovered we did not need the PEAR::SOAP & could use 
PHP's built in SOAP, but I would definitely recommend this SOAP API for 
its ease of use.

--Kristina



> I believe that all of the informal industry-standard acknowledgements
> and accolades that you call for in your note have already been
> informally applied to all the entities that you mention and that this
> informal approved/sanctioned condition has existed for years for PEAR,
> sourceforege.net, et al. This has not successfully gelled into a
> reliable, knowable, useable set of standards that makes it possible 
for
> programmers and managers to have a quantifiable standard to work up to
> and within. I am still in the camp that PHP programmers like realtors,
> financial planners should have an association approved path and tool 
set
> that ultimately will have more knowable and strongly negotiable pay
> scale. Peter
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> On Behalf Of Scott Mattocks
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:47 AM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
> PHP+Developer
> 
> Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> > It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and
> instruments
> > already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and
> application
> > of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've
> got
> > on hand.
> 
> Instead of trying to force a few applications, repositories and 
people 
> into positions they are not ready for, would it not be better to 
> organize efforts to contribute to those which are best suited to take 
> those positions in the near future? A defacto standard is much more 
> powerful than an appointed standard.
> 
> Instead of trying to convince everyone that PEAR is the best place to 
> get reusable code, why not contribute to PEAR and remove all doubt? 
> Instead of forcing everyone to sign up for a proprietary 
certification 
> that does not have community support, why not create an open 
> certification group that has the support of the community and gains 
> community respect because of it? Don't just name user groups as 
> something a programmer should be a member of, make them so valuable 
> (through contributions of experience) that one will be foolish not to 
> sign up.
> 
> If you can get a large group of people to take those steps, your 
dream 
> of a well respected and formally recognized best practices and 
> applications will follow.
> 
> -- 
> Scott Mattocks
> Author: Pro PHP-GTK
> http://www.crisscott.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From scott at crisscott.com  Tue Apr 22 12:36:57 2008
From: scott at crisscott.com (Scott Mattocks)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:36:57 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
	the	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <000e01c8a491$a5610030$f0230090$@com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>	<480E085A.3000501@crisscott.com>
	<000e01c8a491$a5610030$f0230090$@com>
Message-ID: <480E1429.8000301@crisscott.com>

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> I believe that all of the informal industry-standard acknowledgements
> and accolades that you call for in your note have already been
> informally applied to all the entities that you mention and that this
> informal approved/sanctioned condition has existed for years for PEAR,
> sourceforege.net, et al. This has not successfully gelled into a
> reliable, knowable, useable set of standards that makes it possible for
> programmers and managers to have a quantifiable standard to work up to
> and within. I am still in the camp that PHP programmers like realtors,
> financial planners should have an association approved path and tool set
> that ultimately will have more knowable and strongly negotiable pay
> scale. Peter

The fact that we are discussing this is evidence that none of the items 
you highlight are ready to be industry standards and have not received 
enough acknowledgments. When these questions have one and only one 
correct answer, your vision will be a reality:

1) What is the best framework for developing a website in PHP? 
(<rant>Zend Framework is not a framework</rant>. Get some CakePHP and 
Symphony developers in the same room and see if you can get an answer to 
this one)
2) What is the best place for reusable code? (You keep saying 
"sourceforce.net/PEAR". There shouldn't be a slash.)
3) What user group should I belong to in order to get answers to my 
questions? (The answer here is "all of them")
4) Is there a certification that is guaranteed to be respected by anyone 
  I talk to when I go on an interview? (It could be argued that this 
question is not even needed)

The best way to answer these questions is to contribute to the 
projects/lists/whatever to make them better. One will show its merits, 
rise above the others, and become a real defacto standard. Then you can 
ask someone "Do you belong to group X? Do you have certification Y? Do 
you use application/repository Z?" Based on their answers you can make 
the PHP+ determination yourself.

-- 
Scott Mattocks
Author: Pro PHP-GTK
http://www.crisscott.com


From ramons at gmx.net  Tue Apr 22 12:40:33 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:40:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
Message-ID: <480E1501.1010402@gmx.net>

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> d) we have a handful of large free PHP user groups and these groups, say
> the top 10, should be formally recognized, and one should be expected to
> belong to one of these groups.

I understand the motivation, but I don't think mandating a membership in a 
club is helpful. And why just limit it to the top 10? And who says/knows who 
the top 10 are?

> So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to use
> these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert, the
> Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and code. 

Hmmm, I am not likely what one would consider "enterprise PHP", but I have no 
idea on how to outlet code on Sourceforge and I think the Zend IDE rapidly 
inhales big time. And while I do like a good IDE, I don't know if tying 
anything to a specific vendor is beneficial.

> We would not deny the use of, learning of, or the amicable co-existence
> of any and all other outlets/entities, but the above noted entities
> would be the generalized initial standards.

I think it is not good to have tool X define your standard and outright say 
that tool X is the standard. A standard should name specific requirements and 
rules as to what needs to be adhered to. If tool X can do that, fine, but if 
tool Y can do that as well and I happen to like it better, what's wrong with 
that. I know you are getting at that, but "amicable co-existance" is a no go 
when you clearly prefer one over all others.

> So as a new programmer in books/classes/tutorials you are always pointed
> to Php.net for reference, you are behooved to use from and contribute to
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR, you are prompted/guided/expected to join a listed
> user group, and you are advised to get Zend cert and learn that
> IDE/framework.

Nah, have them look at the IDEs and frameworks that are available. For 
example, I think NuSphere rivals Zend (and I think it wipes the floor with it, 
but that is purely subjective), but both are not free. I find that a suitable 
classification of a free environment such as is the case with PHP ought not 
mandate and benefit for profit organizations as is the case with Zend.


> And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user group
> member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> credentials/resume.

I don't know enough about the Zend cert, but is that a cash cow like the cert 
programs are for Cisco or Microsoft? Are there any other PHP certifications in 
place? Doesn't CompTIA have something like that?
Also, who would be the entity issuing the PHP+ credential? If there is no 
place one could verify the credentials anyone can just write it on their 
resume, which devalues the credential quite quickly. Also, is it to be 
internationally or only nationally recognized (such as A+)?

> 
> Just a thought. Now that could be a start.

It is a good start and a good thought.

David


From tom at supertom.com  Tue Apr 22 12:49:57 2008
From: tom at supertom.com (Tom Melendez)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:49:57 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <480E0D2C.8060601@tgaconnect.com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
	<480E0D2C.8060601@tgaconnect.com>
Message-ID: <117286890804220949n2e0e574ema20102c23417eb3e@mail.gmail.com>

So,

"recognized user group member"

And what does this actually mean?

Active on a mailing list?  Shows up at meetings?  Knows the organizer
of the group?  Pays dues?

As the founder and past president of LIPHP I can say that this is hard
to validate.  Sure, there are people in the group and on the list who
ask great questions and give great advice but as a user group, with
intentions of being free and open to all, I would be concerned that
this is beginnings of local politics" (not what you know but who) and
the lack of that is what I enjoyed most about our group.

I'm not poo-pooing the idea, just saying that really, it is going to
come down to this:

1. Candidate says that they are a member of User Group
2. Hiring manager goes to Google and/or mailing list of that User
Group and searches for that user
3. Hiring manager reads those posts and gets a sense of their
involvement (or lack thereof) and technical ability.

Which is probably what is going to happen anyway.

Tom
http://www.liphp.org

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Tim Gales <tgales at tgaconnect.com> wrote:
> Peter Sawczynec wrote:
>  [...]
>
>
> > And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user group
> > member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> > credentials/resume.
> >
> >
>  Is being Zend certified (alone) a big help?
>
>  --
>
>  T. Gales & Associates
>  'Helping People Connect with Technology'
>
>  http://www.tgaconnect.com
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 22 12:56:56 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:56:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <480E0D2C.8060601@tgaconnect.com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com>
	<480E0D2C.8060601@tgaconnect.com>
Message-ID: <001001c8a499$dfd2b9e0$9f782da0$@com>

I believe in cert in general. I believe it provides a real tool for any
journeyman in any industry to launch themselves on a known career path. 

So I would have to answer yes. If a programmer has the knowledge and
poise to successfully rise to the series of questions and situations
that are posed in cert testing then I would feel comfortable we have a
more known entity of a programmer before us. From this benchmark
stepping stone we can as managers more reliably look for talent of a
known level and the talent has a known knowledge level to strive for. I
don't think it would take long for a PHP certified user to be matched
with a commensurate known decent salary that acknowledges their
practical study achievement and future potential. 

Now keep in mind, I am not a developer who is knowledgeable to the
maximum degree. I am not a PHP innovator myself. I want that clear. I am
not on a high-horse pontificating here. I am trying to help programmers
who are just now facing the knowledge/standards obstacles that I faced.
And I believe that, as I have stated in another thread, that the
seriousness of the quality programming that is needed (so much if it
related to financials) to we can no longer afford to just have an entire
industry of non-standardized developers. 

We need some self-regulation, a self-regulation that dares to boldly
recognize that our programming work is of tremendous importance. With a
recognized need for trust, accuracy, and standardized reliability
because our work touches more institutions and people in more mission
critical ways than was ever anticipated 10 years ago.

Peter



-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Tim Gales
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:07 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
[...]
> And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user
group
> member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> credentials/resume.
>   
Is being Zend certified (alone) a big help?

-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com

_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From ps at sun-code.com  Tue Apr 22 13:16:21 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:16:21 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <480E1501.1010402@gmx.net>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com> <480E1501.1010402@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <001101c8a49c$9667af10$c3370d30$@com>

You know, not being able to go forward with a plan/concept/task because
"well, you know, all of the things that need to be in place for
perfection are not in a perfect state" and so therefore we do nothing,
is not how inspiring, new, bold work gets done.

Most businesses/new processes brought about through fresh initiative are
just brought together as best as can be done right now while the iron is
hot and perfection is a state that is usually never achieved or at best
we just keep striving for it in process and product.

I'm not saying I've got the answer. I'm not saying Zend is the only
answer. But I think the lack of knowable skill measurement hampers the
growth and respect of this PHP business, hampers and hinders fluid
hiring and keeps a large segment of programmers stagnated with no known
career route/objective to strive for. 

I'd rather go to any business interview being able to say "yes, I took
the cert and passed" than not.

Peter



-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of David Krings
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:41 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> d) we have a handful of large free PHP user groups and these groups,
say
> the top 10, should be formally recognized, and one should be expected
to
> belong to one of these groups.

I understand the motivation, but I don't think mandating a membership in
a 
club is helpful. And why just limit it to the top 10? And who says/knows
who 
the top 10 are?

> So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to
use
> these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert,
the
> Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and
code. 

Hmmm, I am not likely what one would consider "enterprise PHP", but I
have no 
idea on how to outlet code on Sourceforge and I think the Zend IDE
rapidly 
inhales big time. And while I do like a good IDE, I don't know if tying 
anything to a specific vendor is beneficial.

> We would not deny the use of, learning of, or the amicable
co-existence
> of any and all other outlets/entities, but the above noted entities
> would be the generalized initial standards.

I think it is not good to have tool X define your standard and outright
say 
that tool X is the standard. A standard should name specific
requirements and 
rules as to what needs to be adhered to. If tool X can do that, fine,
but if 
tool Y can do that as well and I happen to like it better, what's wrong
with 
that. I know you are getting at that, but "amicable co-existance" is a
no go 
when you clearly prefer one over all others.

> So as a new programmer in books/classes/tutorials you are always
pointed
> to Php.net for reference, you are behooved to use from and contribute
to
> Sourceforge.net/PEAR, you are prompted/guided/expected to join a
listed
> user group, and you are advised to get Zend cert and learn that
> IDE/framework.

Nah, have them look at the IDEs and frameworks that are available. For 
example, I think NuSphere rivals Zend (and I think it wipes the floor
with it, 
but that is purely subjective), but both are not free. I find that a
suitable 
classification of a free environment such as is the case with PHP ought
not 
mandate and benefit for profit organizations as is the case with Zend.


> And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user
group
> member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> credentials/resume.

I don't know enough about the Zend cert, but is that a cash cow like the
cert 
programs are for Cisco or Microsoft? Are there any other PHP
certifications in 
place? Doesn't CompTIA have something like that?
Also, who would be the entity issuing the PHP+ credential? If there is
no 
place one could verify the credentials anyone can just write it on their

resume, which devalues the credential quite quickly. Also, is it to be 
internationally or only nationally recognized (such as A+)?

> 
> Just a thought. Now that could be a start.

It is a good start and a good thought.

David
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 13:31:52 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:31:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>

I am a bit stumped on this one.

I have a products table with a standard auto number primary key, and a
descriptions table that is keyed off the product id and a language id
('en','es','zh_cn', etc)

I want to join the description table to the product table on a 1:0,1
basis, and if the users language is something other than english, I
want to use that language as the default but fall back on english.

I could do something like:

SELECT product.id, product.price, (SELECT d.description FROM
descriptions d WHERE d.product_id=product.id AND d.lang_id IN
(:1,'en') ORDER BY d.lang_id!='en' DESC LIMIT 0,1) as description
FROM product
WHERE product.category=:2

It works, but it sucks because I then don't know the language of the
result.  Of course I could add another sub select, but I feel like I
am missing some really simple way to just join the tables according to
the required condition.

Any help here would be appreciated.

Regards,
John Campbell


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 13:58:15 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:58:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804221058q618c94bfn2ba2059d92dd5bb3@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, assuming you don't know the language prior to creating the query,
I think you'd use something like:

SELECT
	product.id
	, product.price
	, IF (lang_id IS NULL, 'en', lang_id) AS lang_id
FROM
	product
LEFT JOIN
	descriptions ON product.id = descriptions.product_id
WHERE
	product.category = :2

Notice that I removed ":1".

- jake

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 1:31 PM, John Campbell <jcampbell1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am a bit stumped on this one.
>
>  I have a products table with a standard auto number primary key, and a
>  descriptions table that is keyed off the product id and a language id
>  ('en','es','zh_cn', etc)
>
>  I want to join the description table to the product table on a 1:0,1
>  basis, and if the users language is something other than english, I
>  want to use that language as the default but fall back on english.
>
>  I could do something like:
>
>  SELECT product.id, product.price, (SELECT d.description FROM
>  descriptions d WHERE d.product_id=product.id AND d.lang_id IN
>  (:1,'en') ORDER BY d.lang_id!='en' DESC LIMIT 0,1) as description
>  FROM product
>  WHERE product.category=:2
>
>  It works, but it sucks because I then don't know the language of the
>  result.  Of course I could add another sub select, but I feel like I
>  am missing some really simple way to just join the tables according to
>  the required condition.
>
>  Any help here would be appreciated.
>
>  Regards,
>  John Campbell
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From tgales at tgaconnect.com  Tue Apr 22 14:10:32 2008
From: tgales at tgaconnect.com (Tim Gales)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
	the	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <001101c8a49c$9667af10$c3370d30$@com>
References: <000a01c8a488$55428730$ffc79590$@com> <480E1501.1010402@gmx.net>
	<001101c8a49c$9667af10$c3370d30$@com>
Message-ID: <480E2A18.5030501@tgaconnect.com>

Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> [...]
> Most businesses/new processes brought about through fresh initiative are
> just brought together as best as can be done right now while the iron is
> hot ... 
Many business profess that they want to have people who can think 
'outside of the box'
and yet they cling to a 'command and control' style of organization 
(versus say a 'teamwork'
style)

When the idea goes up for review by some board or committee, a member 
invariably asks
who else is doing something like this. And you have to explain no one 
else is doing this --
this is a *new* idea (its outside the 'box'). If the innovator doesn't 
have the luxury of being
 able to address the review members directly, the idea suffers dilution 
from being translated
by some manager or vice-president. It seems to take a long time because 
you have to add the 
extra step of explaining it to some intermediary.

Initiatives don't die because they are not implemented quickly enough. 
They die because
others in the organization either see that the idea is unsound and veto 
it, or they they
don't understand its value in the first place and don't move on it.

-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com



From kenneth at ylayali.net  Tue Apr 22 14:10:47 2008
From: kenneth at ylayali.net (Kenneth Dombrowski)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080422181047.GB14564@ylayali.net>


Hi John, 

On 08-04-22 13:31 -0400, John Campbell wrote:
> 
> I have a products table with a standard auto number primary key, and a
> descriptions table that is keyed off the product id and a language id
> ('en','es','zh_cn', etc)
> 
> I want to join the description table to the product table on a 1:0,1
> basis, and if the users language is something other than english, I
> want to use that language as the default but fall back on english.

probably there's a cleverer way, but i would probably go with something
like this over a subselect: 

SELECT 
        p.id , 
        p.price , 
        IF(d.description, d.description, en.description) AS description , 
        IF(d.lang_id, d.lang_id, en.lang_id) AS lang_id 
FROM product AS p 
INNER JOIN user AS u ON u.id = :1 
LEFT JOIN description AS d ON (
        d.product_id = p.id 
        AND d.lang_id = u.lang_id 
) 
LEFT JOIN description AS en ON ( 
        en.product_id = p.id 
        AND d.lang_id = 'en' 
)
WHERE p.category = :2 

hth, 
kenneth




From nate at cakephp.org  Tue Apr 22 14:15:42 2008
From: nate at cakephp.org (Nate Abele)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:15:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <20080422170727.E80375081C@mail.cakephp.org>
References: <20080422170727.E80375081C@mail.cakephp.org>
Message-ID: <49D7332F-5557-4EB2-8C05-6375592C3CFC@cakephp.org>

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:09:25 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Greetings
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>
> On Tue, 22 Apr 2008, Erik Schoster wrote:
>
>> I can attest to symfony.  As someone who forced themselves to shirk
>> frameworks while I learned PHP, I do enjoy a good framework.  Symfony
>> has impressed me recently.
>
> We're in good company (<cough>Yahoo</cough>).
>

Heh, well, Yahoo! also uses CakePHP for quite a few internal apps as  
well.  Mozilla uses Cake for many apps both internal and public-facing  
(http://addons.mozilla.org), Mambo is doing a from-scratch rewrite of  
the new version of their CMS in Cake 1.2.  Cake is also used  
extensively inside the UN, MIT, Yale, Panasonic, and CERN.  Oh, and  
BBN Technologies, the company that invented ARPANET and the use of the  
@ symbol for addressing email had their site done in Cake as well.

I could probably continue, but I think you get the idea. ;-)

Anyhoo, just my two pennies.

- Nate


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 14:26:03 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:26:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
In-Reply-To: <20080422181047.GB14564@ylayali.net>
References: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080422181047.GB14564@ylayali.net>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804221126k204b5594t5ab4a547f3a178dc@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Kenneth Dombrowski <kenneth at ylayali.net> wrote:
>  SELECT
>         p.id ,
>         p.price ,
>         IF(d.description, d.description, en.description) AS description ,
>         IF(d.lang_id, d.lang_id, en.lang_id) AS lang_id
>  FROM product AS p
>  INNER JOIN user AS u ON u.id = :1
>  LEFT JOIN description AS d ON (
>         d.product_id = p.id
>         AND d.lang_id = u.lang_id
>  )
>  LEFT JOIN description AS en ON (
>         en.product_id = p.id
>         AND d.lang_id = 'en'
>  )
>  WHERE p.category = :2

That is perfect... I feel dumb now.

Is there any reason IF is preferable to COALESCE?

Regards,
John Campbell


From bmartin at mac.com  Tue Apr 22 17:07:50 2008
From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:07:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] preforming a task after x hours
Message-ID: <B4DD661A-FE13-473D-B9D6-1223EA81BD40@mac.com>

Hi,
Is there a way to set a process to run every x hours in PHP?

Bruce Martin
The Martin Solution
bruce at martinsolution.com
http://www.martinsolution.com
http://externals.martinsolution.com



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From lists at enobrev.com  Tue Apr 22 17:18:46 2008
From: lists at enobrev.com (Mark Armendariz)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:18:46 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] preforming a task after x hours
In-Reply-To: <B4DD661A-FE13-473D-B9D6-1223EA81BD40@mac.com>
References: <B4DD661A-FE13-473D-B9D6-1223EA81BD40@mac.com>
Message-ID: <480E5636.2090002@enobrev.com>

Bruce Martin wrote:
> Hi,
> Is there a way to set a process to run every x hours in PHP?
look up cron or cronw depending on your platform.

Mark


From david at davidmintz.org  Tue Apr 22 17:19:29 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:19:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] preforming a task after x hours
In-Reply-To: <B4DD661A-FE13-473D-B9D6-1223EA81BD40@mac.com>
References: <B4DD661A-FE13-473D-B9D6-1223EA81BD40@mac.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804221419h36d6ac07j986ae0908ae4ad44@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com> wrote:

> Hi,Is there a way to set a process to run every x hours in PHP?
>
>
I don't think there's any graceful way, but there's certainly a way known as
cron that is meant for just that very thing.


-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Tue Apr 22 18:09:39 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:09:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080422220938.GA6099@panix.com>

Hi John:

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 01:31:52PM -0400, John Campbell wrote:
> 
> I have a products table with a standard auto number primary key, and a
> descriptions table that is keyed off the product id and a language id
> ('en','es','zh_cn', etc)
...
> SELECT product.id, product.price, (SELECT d.description FROM
> descriptions d WHERE d.product_id=product.id AND d.lang_id IN
> (:1,'en') ORDER BY d.lang_id!='en' DESC LIMIT 0,1) as description
> FROM product
> WHERE product.category=:2

Don't use sub selects unless really necessary.  They kill performance.

Also, it's very helpful to use the same column names for the same thing 
throughout the database.  For example, use "product_id" in both the 
product and descriptions tables.  Makes things clearer and allows use of 
"USING".

Also also, use a consistent naming convention.  You've got plural 
descriptions and singular product.

Personally, I dislike aliasing tables (unless you're using the same table 
twice, of course) because it obfuscates the query.

Anyway, all that aside, except the first point, here's how I'd do it:


SELECT product.id, product.price,
COALESCE(user_lang.description, default_lang.description) AS description,
COALESCE(user_lang.lang_id, default_lang.lang_id) AS lang_id

FROM product
LEFT JOIN descriptions AS user_lang
  ON (
    user_lang.product_id = product.id
    AND lang_id = :1
  )
LEFT JOIN descriptions AS default_lang
  ON (
    default_lang.product_id = product.id
    AND lang_id = 'en'
  )

WHERE product.category = :2


--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Apr 22 22:05:59 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:05:59 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
Message-ID: <1208916359.4543@coral.he.net>

//======
SELECT i.id, i.name, i.whatever,
COALESCE(i.specific1, d.default1) as val1,
COALESCE(i.specific2, d.default2) as val2
FROM tblInstance i
LEFT OUTER JOIN tblDefault d
ON i.foreignKey = d.primaryKey;

COALESCE selects the first non-null value of its arguments, and the 
left outer join makes sure all records from the left table are returned.
//====

Here is a nifty example of the COALESCE function that I found.  So 
basically this function is used to handle possible NULL values in a 
join ... or...?  

Is this a MySQL specific thing or do other DBs use this function?


--Kristina 




> Hi John:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 01:31:52PM -0400, John Campbell wrote:
> > 
> > I have a products table with a standard auto number primary key, 
and a
> > descriptions table that is keyed off the product id and a language 
id
> > ('en','es','zh_cn', etc)
> ...
> > SELECT product.id, product.price, (SELECT d.description FROM
> > descriptions d WHERE d.product_id=product.id AND d.lang_id IN
> > (:1,'en') ORDER BY d.lang_id!='en' DESC LIMIT 0,1) as description
> > FROM product
> > WHERE product.category=:2
> 
> Don't use sub selects unless really necessary.  They kill performance.
> 
> Also, it's very helpful to use the same column names for the same 
thing 
> throughout the database.  For example, use "product_id" in both the 
> product and descriptions tables.  Makes things clearer and allows use 
of 
> "USING".
> 
> Also also, use a consistent naming convention.  You've got plural 
> descriptions and singular product.
> 
> Personally, I dislike aliasing tables (unless you're using the same 
table 
> twice, of course) because it obfuscates the query.
> 
> Anyway, all that aside, except the first point, here's how I'd do it:
> 
> 
> SELECT product.id, product.price,
> COALESCE(user_lang.description, default_lang.description) AS 
description,
> COALESCE(user_lang.lang_id, default_lang.lang_id) AS lang_id
> 
> FROM product
> LEFT JOIN descriptions AS user_lang
>   ON (
>     user_lang.product_id = product.id
>     AND lang_id = :1
>   )
> LEFT JOIN descriptions AS default_lang
>   ON (
>     default_lang.product_id = product.id
>     AND lang_id = 'en'
>   )
> 
> WHERE product.category = :2
> 
> 
> --Dan
> 
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From lists at zaunere.com  Tue Apr 22 22:21:25 2008
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:21:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
In-Reply-To: <1208916359.4543@coral.he.net>
References: <1208916359.4543@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <001501c8a4e8$bb3e2840$31ba78c0$@com>

Hi Kristina,

> //======
> SELECT i.id, i.name, i.whatever,
> COALESCE(i.specific1, d.default1) as val1,
> COALESCE(i.specific2, d.default2) as val2
> FROM tblInstance i
> LEFT OUTER JOIN tblDefault d
> ON i.foreignKey = d.primaryKey;
> 
> COALESCE selects the first non-null value of its arguments, and the
> left outer join makes sure all records from the left table are
> returned.
> //====
> 
> Here is a nifty example of the COALESCE function that I found.  So
> basically this function is used to handle possible NULL values in a
> join ... or...?

That is a good example - an elegant if/else if/else :)

> Is this a MySQL specific thing or do other DBs use this function?

More or less.  Databases will have wonderfully standardized ways of
interpreting NULL, and even the functionality of this function, but the
concept is always the same.

This of course effectively rendering database abstraction layers in PHP
meaningless :)

H



From lists at zaunere.com  Tue Apr 22 22:34:27 2008
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:34:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Note: PHP Meetup
Message-ID: <001601c8a4ea$8d2c6aa0$a7853fe0$@com>

Hi all,

I'd like to let everyone know about our PHP Meetup organization efforts.

On the 1st Tuesday of every month, at 6:30pm, we'll be getting together at
Pound and Pence for an informal gathering of PHP, web, and open source
folks.

Details are at http://php.meetup.com/430/

The meetups will be the informal networking events to compliment our
continued monthly general meetings at IBM.

The first meetup is May 6th.  The venue might start to get packed beyond 50
attendees, so please RSVP at the site above so we have a rough count.

We're also looking forward to continuing these events through the summer and
in conjunction with other area groups.  Looking forward to meeting up with
everyone at this first event, through the summer, and beyond.

---
Hans Zaunere / President / New York PHP
www.nyphp.org






From ajai at bitblit.net  Wed Apr 23 10:34:59 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:34:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <480DFDE0.5050406@projectskyline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008, Ben Sgro wrote:

> We've agreed on the Zend Framework, the zend modules and coding style 

I dont think we should favor one framework over another.


-- 
Aj.



From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 10:41:49 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:41:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
In-Reply-To: <20080422220938.GA6099@panix.com>
References: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080422220938.GA6099@panix.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804230741l35090339i8cd2d8a957e68387@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Daniel Convissor
<danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:
> Hi John:
>  [snip]
>  Don't use sub selects unless really necessary.  They kill performance.

Yeah, that's why I knew what I was doing was wrong.

>  Also also, use a consistent naming convention.  You've got plural
>  descriptions and singular product.

While that was just an example, I am a bit stuck with legacy naming
that is all over the place.  I am not aware of any good method for
fixing a schema naming problem without a huge amount of
changes/testing.  I suppose I could create a bunch of views and fix it
piecemeal, but that will likely cause a ton of headaches.

Is there a defacto standard for schema naming?  For new stuff, I have
gone with table names as plural, and first letter is upper case, and
words separated by underscores.  Field names are lower case, separated
by underscores. Field keys should have the same name across all tables
to allow for USING.   I never know what to name timestamp/date fields.

How would you name the following tables?
Users
Permissions
User_Permissions  - a many to many connector table

Thanks,
John Campbell


From tedd at sperling.com  Wed Apr 23 13:16:32 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:16:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>

Hi gang:

It would be nice to be a certified programmer -- I'm certified in 
other professions and it helps somewhat.

However, the problem as I see is two-fold:

1. What's required to become certified (obvious);

2. What are the qualifications of the governing body and its 
industry's support (not so obvious).

First, we need to establish a charter and solicit member 
participation. Then with numbers comes the authority to establish 
acceptable and proper criteria for certification.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From urb at e-government.com  Wed Apr 23 13:42:20 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:42:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+ Developer
In-Reply-To: <p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com>


>1. What's required to become certified (obvious);

         To you is obvious, to me not so obvious :-) I know I sound 
like a broken record but to me
programming is not about syntax it's about logic and problem solving.

         Many years ago Edsger Dijkstr, one of the giants of computer 
science, wrote an article
suggesting that a first course in computer programming be taught 
without using a computer.
At the time I thought he was nuts, but after teaching introductory 
programming for many years
I agree with the concept. Especially in the beginning, syntax get is 
the way of solving problems.
Any non-trivial problem will have multiple solutions. How does one 
determine if their approach
is the "best" solution to the problem and not simple a solution that 
works. In my experience
elegant (read simple) solutions do not happen while you sit at a 
keyboard but rather sitting in
a quite place with a pad and pencil.

         If you've never read "Programming Pearls" by Jon Bentley, 
beg, borrow, or steal a copy
and read it. It will change the way you look at programming.


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From jbaltz at altzman.com  Wed Apr 23 13:49:42 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:49:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <480F76B6.8090508@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-23 13:16 tedd said the following:
> However, the problem as I see is two-fold:
> 1. What's required to become certified (obvious);

Not so obvious; the various flavors of BSD unix have a large volunteer 
community going for BSD Unix certification, and they've only now 
starting to come together to actually HAVE a certification exam.

> 2. What are the qualifications of the governing body and its industry's 
> support (not so obvious).

The latter is less important than the former; obviously if you've got 
Nobel winners on your committee it's easier to get backing, but you can 
do without them.

> First, we need to establish a charter and solicit member participation. 
> Then with numbers comes the authority to establish acceptable and proper 
> criteria for certification.

Should take you about 2 years, judging by BSDCert's progress.

> tedd

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From bmartin at mac.com  Wed Apr 23 14:15:54 2008
From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:15:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the	PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <6419F23F-E1D7-48A8-9C02-86E80ECD5F72@mac.com>


On Apr 23, 2008, at 1:42 PM, Urb LeJeune wrote:
>
>> 1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
>
>        To you is obvious, to me not so obvious :-) I know I sound  
> like a broken record but to me
> programming is not about syntax it's about logic and problem solving.

I would agree. I have seen a few people whom became certified in  
various languages, but could not follow the simple logic of a program.  
When it came time to debug the code they where completely lost. If the  
function of sub routien did not produce the expected outcome, they had  
no idea how to find the root of the problem.
I am self taught in all but PERL, which was my first encounter with  
regular expressions. Had it not been for the regular expressions I  
would have learned that on my own as well. I have found that one thing  
in all programming languages is true and that is the logic, which  
makes it easy, IMHO, to learn multiple languages. The syntax is simply  
the structure or language, if you will, of the logic.

>        Many years ago Edsger Dijkstr, one of the giants of computer  
> science, wrote an article
> suggesting that a first course in computer programming be taught  
> without using a computer.
> At the time I thought he was nuts, but after teaching introductory  
> programming for many years
> I agree with the concept. Especially in the beginning, syntax get is  
> the way of solving problems.
> Any non-trivial problem will have multiple solutions. How does one  
> determine if their approach
> is the "best" solution to the problem and not simple a solution that  
> works. In my experience
> elegant (read simple) solutions do not happen while you sit at a  
> keyboard but rather sitting in
> a quite place with a pad and pencil.

How true.

>        If you've never read "Programming Pearls" by Jon Bentley,  
> beg, borrow, or steal a copy
> and read it. It will change the way you look at programming.

I will have to add this to my collection.

Thanks,
Bruce Martin
The Martin Solution
bruce at martinsolution.com
http://www.martinsolution.com
http://externals.martinsolution.com



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From tedd at sperling.com  Wed Apr 23 14:17:26 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:17:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the 
	PHP+ Developer
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080ac4352845be81@[192.168.1.101]>

At 1:42 PM -0400 4/23/08, Urb LeJeune wrote:
>>1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
>
>         To you is obvious, to me not so obvious :-) I know I sound 
>like a broken record but to me
>programming is not about syntax it's about logic and problem solving.


No, you took the word obvious to mean something not intended. I mean 
that it's obvious that certification will require some sort of 
testing for qualifications.

What isn't obvious are the qualifications of the organization that 
will determine those. Understand?

>         Many years ago Edsger Dijkstr, one of the giants of computer 
>science, wrote an article
>suggesting that a first course in computer programming be taught 
>without using a computer.
>At the time I thought he was nuts, but after teaching introductory 
>programming for many years
>I agree with the concept. Especially in the beginning, syntax get is 
>the way of solving problems.
>Any non-trivial problem will have multiple solutions. How does one 
>determine if their approach
>is the "best" solution to the problem and not simple a solution that 
>works. In my experience
>elegant (read simple) solutions do not happen while you sit at a 
>keyboard but rather sitting in
>a quite place with a pad and pencil.
>
>         If you've never read "Programming Pearls" by Jon Bentley, 
>beg, borrow, or steal a copy
>and read it. It will change the way you look at programming.


I think I read the first edition published in the 80's -- it sounds 
familiar. And I've probably read at least hundred other programming 
books in more languages than I care to remember over the last of 40+ 
years. In addition I've read literally scores of algorithm, fuzzy 
logic, genetic learning, problem analysis, matrix theory, spacial 
relationships, digital filters, signal analysis, data processing, 
chaos theory, AI, and a host of other computer related material. 
Currently, I read about a book a week -- I am currently reading 
jQuery and last week it was DOM scripting. Next week? Who knows?

So, I thank you for your suggestion, but I've been there.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From tedd at sperling.com  Wed Apr 23 14:21:50 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:21:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <480F76B6.8090508@altzman.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]> <480F76B6.8090508@altzman.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080cc4352e833501@[192.168.1.101]>

>on 2008-04-23 13:16 tedd said the following:
>>However, the problem as I see is two-fold:
>>1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
>
>Not so obvious; the various flavors of BSD unix have a large 
>volunteer community going for BSD Unix certification, and they've 
>only now starting to come together to actually HAVE a certification 
>exam.


>>2. What are the qualifications of the governing body and its 
>>industry's support (not so obvious).


I must have said it wrong. That's not what I meant. I used (obvious) 
and (not so obvious) to compare the two points I failed to make.

The point being, unless you have an acceptable governing body, you'll 
have no certification process.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Apr 23 14:43:07 2008
From: paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk (PaulCheung)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:43:07 +0100
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
References: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com><20080422220938.GA6099@panix.com>
	<8f0676b40804230741l35090339i8cd2d8a957e68387@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c8a571$df57f470$0200a8c0@X9183>

Naming conventions were once a hotly debated issue back in the day when 
mainframes ruled the universe. An old applications programming technique was 
to prefix identifier. For example the Users Table would be called 
users_table and each element in that table would be prefixed with ut (for 
users_table) ending up with a file definition that looks something like

users_table(ut_time, ut_date, ut_etc.)
permissions_table(pt_time, pt_date, pt_etc.)
user_permissions(up_time, up_date, up_etc.)

Hope this is of some use

Paul

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Campbell" <jcampbell1 at gmail.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question


> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Daniel Convissor
> <danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:
>> Hi John:
>>  [snip]
>>  Don't use sub selects unless really necessary.  They kill performance.
>
> Yeah, that's why I knew what I was doing was wrong.
>
>>  Also also, use a consistent naming convention.  You've got plural
>>  descriptions and singular product.
>
> While that was just an example, I am a bit stuck with legacy naming
> that is all over the place.  I am not aware of any good method for
> fixing a schema naming problem without a huge amount of
> changes/testing.  I suppose I could create a bunch of views and fix it
> piecemeal, but that will likely cause a ton of headaches.
>
> Is there a defacto standard for schema naming?  For new stuff, I have
> gone with table names as plural, and first letter is upper case, and
> words separated by underscores.  Field names are lower case, separated
> by underscores. Field keys should have the same name across all tables
> to allow for USING.   I never know what to name timestamp/date fields.
>
> How would you name the following tables?
> Users
> Permissions
> User_Permissions  - a many to many connector table
>
> Thanks,
> John Campbell
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 



From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Wed Apr 23 15:09:03 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 03:09:03 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ac4352845be81@[192\.168\.1\.101]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com>
	<p0624080ac4352845be81@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <266866576.20080424030903@qualityadvantages.com>

No matter how many certificates you stack on top of each other from
Manhattan to the Moon, it STILL does not equate to a BScs degree. I
see lots of people here bitterly complaining about legitimacy and yet
the avoid the very thing that gives them instant credibility, the
Degree.

My very first experience with sitting in front of a keyboard was in
fact while I was working on my degree at a time when BScs didn't exist
and colleges were issuing BSEE degrees for graduates who majored in
Computer Science.

From my experience with certificates, the only people who really
benefit from them are the companies that hype them and the test taker
courses that teach you how to take the test and not whether the
qualifications are solid or not.

From my perspective, have been a hiring manager for more than twenty
years, I know from bitter experience that certificate programs are a
LOT more marketing hype than they are a practical barometer for
gauging what someone is suppose to know about anything. Lots of people
can pass tests and don't know basis stuff when you set them in front of
a keyboard.

Some sound advice, GET THE DEGREE! When push comes to shove that is
what give you credibility not some pie in the sky marketing hype that
promises the moon and delivers chopped liver.

In a hiring situation when two candidates are pretty well equally
qualified, one with a degree and one without, almost ALWAYS the degree
is the determining factor for who gets the job!

This whole "self governing body" sounds a lot like a scam to me to
create a yet another bureaucratic monstrosity that has no power and
generates a lot of useless noise. Corporate Entities are obligated to
 do what is best for their stock holders and that is the driving force
 for how products generated by Zend Technologies evolve. The fact that
 they haven't become a Micro$$$ is perhaps only a matter of waiting for
 the right time and has nothing at all to do with "community". Whenever
 they figure out how to do a licensing gig like Micro$$$, to exploit
 all the PHP developers on the planet, then you will discover who exactly the
 "governing body" for PHP is to be sure.

 My experience with User groups is that they tend to think they are the
 "driving force" for products when in reality they are, well, User Groups and
 really don't have the power they think they do. They have the yearly
 meetings and put on their conferences etc. but its the Corporation
 roadmap that decides the directions for where the products go, not the user groups.

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 23 15:38:18 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:38:18 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+	Developer
Message-ID: <1208979498.17701@coral.he.net>

Mike -- 99.9% of the people posting on this list do have a university 
degree, from what I have seen!  A lot of them have MS or PhDs, even.

But, a 10- or 20-year old degree doesn't prove anything when it comes 
to current technology.  A certification in current technology proves 
that you are knowledgeable in a certain area, at least to a certain 
extent, and also quantifies the knowledge base for our profession as 
PHP programmers, which is why we are (mostly) in favor of a cert.

--Kristina (B.A., 1985) :)

> No matter how many certificates you stack on top of each other from
> Manhattan to the Moon, it STILL does not equate to a BScs degree. I
> see lots of people here bitterly complaining about legitimacy and yet
> the avoid the very thing that gives them instant credibility, the
> Degree.
> 
> My very first experience with sitting in front of a keyboard was in
> fact while I was working on my degree at a time when BScs didn't exist
> and colleges were issuing BSEE degrees for graduates who majored in
> Computer Science.
> 
> From my experience with certificates, the only people who really
> benefit from them are the companies that hype them and the test taker
> courses that teach you how to take the test and not whether the
> qualifications are solid or not.
> 
> From my perspective, have been a hiring manager for more than twenty
> years, I know from bitter experience that certificate programs are a
> LOT more marketing hype than they are a practical barometer for
> gauging what someone is suppose to know about anything. Lots of people
> can pass tests and don't know basis stuff when you set them in front 
of
> a keyboard.
> 
> Some sound advice, GET THE DEGREE! When push comes to shove that is
> what give you credibility not some pie in the sky marketing hype that
> promises the moon and delivers chopped liver.
> 
> In a hiring situation when two candidates are pretty well equally
> qualified, one with a degree and one without, almost ALWAYS the degree
> is the determining factor for who gets the job!
> 
> This whole "self governing body" sounds a lot like a scam to me to
> create a yet another bureaucratic monstrosity that has no power and
> generates a lot of useless noise. Corporate Entities are obligated to
>  do what is best for their stock holders and that is the driving force
>  for how products generated by Zend Technologies evolve. The fact that
>  they haven't become a Micro$$$ is perhaps only a matter of waiting 
for
>  the right time and has nothing at all to do with "community". 
Whenever
>  they figure out how to do a licensing gig like Micro$$$, to exploit
>  all the PHP developers on the planet, then you will discover who 
exactly the
>  "governing body" for PHP is to be sure.
> 
>  My experience with User groups is that they tend to think they are 
the
>  "driving force" for products when in reality they are, well, User 
Groups and
>  really don't have the power they think they do. They have the yearly
>  meetings and put on their conferences etc. but its the Corporation
>  roadmap that decides the directions for where the products go, not 
the user groups.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From jim at bizcomputinginc.com  Wed Apr 23 15:39:51 2008
From: jim at bizcomputinginc.com (Jim Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:39:51 -0400
Subject: Spam: Re[2]: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP
	and 	the PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <266866576.20080424030903@qualityadvantages.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>	<p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com>	<p0624080ac4352845be81@[192.168.1.101]>
	<266866576.20080424030903@qualityadvantages.com>
Message-ID: <480F9087.9080106@bizcomputinginc.com>


> Some sound advice, GET THE DEGREE! When push comes to shove that is
> what give you credibility not some pie in the sky marketing hype that
> promises the moon and delivers chopped liver.
>   
You make that sound sooooo easy.  But then again, I'm not one of the 
ones pushing for certification but instead pushing for reasonable hiring 
practice.  Makes no sense to me at all how a hiring manager would refuse 
to even look at a resume of an individual because there is no degree 
when that individual has many years of experience in the field.

I was stupid, when I went to college, I stopped after my first year 
because I didn't want to waste all my time in school when I could be out 
being productive, working, earning, and learning the best way possible, 
at the feet of real people who have been doing just what you want to 
learn.  Back then when there was such a shortage of anybody with the 
ability to program, this worked well.  I learned, I experienced, I 
earned, I taught, I even developed my own in-house curriculum for some 
special purpose language the company was using.  So, from all 
indications I made the right choices.  Until the dot com bubble went 
bang.  Was downsized.

I would love to pursue a degree, but, with a wife and 3 kids to support, 
and a mortgage to pay and spending 60 hrs. a week developing software 
free lance, it's economically challenging to seek a degree as well as 
time challenged.  I realize that many institutions will allow life 
experience to count toward some credits as well as you can pay to test 
out for other credits, but it's a daunting thought going back to school 
after being out for 23 years.

> In a hiring situation when two candidates are pretty well equally
> qualified, one with a degree and one without, almost ALWAYS the degree
> is the determining factor for who gets the job!
>   
And that is acceptable to me IF AND ONLY IF the candidates are otherwise 
equally qualified.  The real problem is many companies won't even look 
at the resume to find out if you are either equally qualified or more 
qualified than the degreed person.



From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Wed Apr 23 16:05:21 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:05:21 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <1208979498.17701@coral.he.net>
References: <1208979498.17701@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1499762486.20080424040521@qualityadvantages.com>

Hello Kristina,

You are right.

> --Kristina (B.A., 1985) :)

My B.A. was in 1986.

I am still a little suspicious about certification programs in general
from what I have encountered as a Software Engineering manager even when
I was at Microsoft. I frequently interviewed people with certifications
on their resume that you would have expected that they were
fairly knowledgeable about the area of the certification but in
practice I often found they were not.

Some of this stuff gets ugly. When I went from the East Coast to the
West Coast, I was shocked to discover, for example that certificate
courses were being offered in Quality Engineering that taught only how
to get through an interview with little or no course work in quality
assurance or testing, much like the degree spam you see today.

Proposing a certification process for PHP developers is not a trivial
undertaking and getting a "standard" by which to measure success is a
huge problem, I think. Like the Webmaster thread here in the past few
weeks, its an octopus that will require a significant effort to get a
clear set of boundaries and requirements. Hope it works out but I am
a bit skeptical about it for sure based on other historical factors.


-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 23 16:07:46 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:07:46 -0700
Subject: Spam: Re[2]: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP	and
	the PHP+Developer
Message-ID: <1208981266.27052@coral.he.net>

I'd have to agree 100% that "in the trenches" experience and a track 
record of being paid to write solid code for many years is worth way 
more than any piece of paper, whether it be degree or cert or whatnot.

Unfortunately, there are few geniuses in HR :)


-Kristina

> 
> > Some sound advice, GET THE DEGREE! When push comes to shove that is
> > what give you credibility not some pie in the sky marketing hype 
that
> > promises the moon and delivers chopped liver.
> >   
> You make that sound sooooo easy.  But then again, I'm not one of the 
> ones pushing for certification but instead pushing for reasonable 
hiring 
> practice.  Makes no sense to me at all how a hiring manager would 
refuse 
> to even look at a resume of an individual because there is no degree 
> when that individual has many years of experience in the field.
> 
> I was stupid, when I went to college, I stopped after my first year 
> because I didn't want to waste all my time in school when I could be 
out 
> being productive, working, earning, and learning the best way 
possible, 
> at the feet of real people who have been doing just what you want to 
> learn.  Back then when there was such a shortage of anybody with the 
> ability to program, this worked well.  I learned, I experienced, I 
> earned, I taught, I even developed my own in-house curriculum for 
some 
> special purpose language the company was using.  So, from all 
> indications I made the right choices.  Until the dot com bubble went 
> bang.  Was downsized.
> 
> I would love to pursue a degree, but, with a wife and 3 kids to 
support, 
> and a mortgage to pay and spending 60 hrs. a week developing software 
> free lance, it's economically challenging to seek a degree as well as 
> time challenged.  I realize that many institutions will allow life 
> experience to count toward some credits as well as you can pay to 
test 
> out for other credits, but it's a daunting thought going back to 
school 
> after being out for 23 years.
> 
> > In a hiring situation when two candidates are pretty well equally
> > qualified, one with a degree and one without, almost ALWAYS the 
degree
> > is the determining factor for who gets the job!
> >   
> And that is acceptable to me IF AND ONLY IF the candidates are 
otherwise 
> equally qualified.  The real problem is many companies won't even 
look 
> at the resume to find out if you are either equally qualified or more 
> qualified than the degreed person.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 23 16:27:46 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:27:46 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+	Developer
Message-ID: <1208982466.1143@coral.he.net>

Mike --

I passed on the opportunity to take the Microsoft certs (back in my 
ASP/VB days).  I thought the questions were assinine because the tests 
had nothing to do with real world programming tasks and were more rote 
memorization of factoids.  Also I was convinced that those testing 
centers had quite a racket going charging 100 bucks a pop for each 
test, and 4 tests required for the cert!!!  

I think I'm pretty safe in saying that that is NOT where we want to go 
with any cert we may be discussing here.  We want it to have relevance 
and value to the marketplace.

-Kristina

> Hello Kristina,
> 
> You are right.
> 
> > --Kristina (B.A., 1985) :)
> 
> My B.A. was in 1986.
> 
> I am still a little suspicious about certification programs in general
> from what I have encountered as a Software Engineering manager even 
when
> I was at Microsoft. I frequently interviewed people with 
certifications
> on their resume that you would have expected that they were
> fairly knowledgeable about the area of the certification but in
> practice I often found they were not.
> 
> Some of this stuff gets ugly. When I went from the East Coast to the
> West Coast, I was shocked to discover, for example that certificate
> courses were being offered in Quality Engineering that taught only how
> to get through an interview with little or no course work in quality
> assurance or testing, much like the degree spam you see today.
> 
> Proposing a certification process for PHP developers is not a trivial
> undertaking and getting a "standard" by which to measure success is a
> huge problem, I think. Like the Webmaster thread here in the past few
> weeks, its an octopus that will require a significant effort to get a
> clear set of boundaries and requirements. Hope it works out but I am
> a bit skeptical about it for sure based on other historical factors.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From ps at sun-code.com  Wed Apr 23 17:25:55 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:25:55 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <266866576.20080424030903@qualityadvantages.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net><p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]><7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com><p0624080ac4352845be81@[192.168.1.101]>
	<266866576.20080424030903@qualityadvantages.com>
Message-ID: <000001c8a588$9dd311d0$d9793570$@com>

It would of course be very valuable to have a Computer Science degree
that included actual hands on programming and multimedia.
But then it would still be best to have an professional
industry/association cert just like other serious technical/professional
careers that involve consumer/business finances, accuracy, trust and
ethics. 

I believe the most beneficial PHP+ cert that we can strive for would be
more on par with a Cisco cert. An acknowledged, industry heavy weight,
difficult but well worth while cert. I believe that the cert should be
advanced, sophisticated and relatively difficult -- the PHP+ cert should
not be about qualifying entry-level initiates, it would be used for
qualifying middle to expert level.

There could/should be a separate entry-level cert if needed.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of mikesz at qualityadvantages.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:09 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re[2]: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer

No matter how many certificates you stack on top of each other from
Manhattan to the Moon, it STILL does not equate to a BScs degree. I
see lots of people here bitterly complaining about legitimacy and yet
the avoid the very thing that gives them instant credibility, the
Degree.

My very first experience with sitting in front of a keyboard was in
fact while I was working on my degree at a time when BScs didn't exist
and colleges were issuing BSEE degrees for graduates who majored in
Computer Science.

>From my experience with certificates, the only people who really
benefit from them are the companies that hype them and the test taker
courses that teach you how to take the test and not whether the
qualifications are solid or not.

>From my perspective, have been a hiring manager for more than twenty
years, I know from bitter experience that certificate programs are a
LOT more marketing hype than they are a practical barometer for
gauging what someone is suppose to know about anything. Lots of people
can pass tests and don't know basis stuff when you set them in front of
a keyboard.

Some sound advice, GET THE DEGREE! When push comes to shove that is
what give you credibility not some pie in the sky marketing hype that
promises the moon and delivers chopped liver.

In a hiring situation when two candidates are pretty well equally
qualified, one with a degree and one without, almost ALWAYS the degree
is the determining factor for who gets the job!

This whole "self governing body" sounds a lot like a scam to me to
create a yet another bureaucratic monstrosity that has no power and
generates a lot of useless noise. Corporate Entities are obligated to
 do what is best for their stock holders and that is the driving force
 for how products generated by Zend Technologies evolve. The fact that
 they haven't become a Micro$$$ is perhaps only a matter of waiting for
 the right time and has nothing at all to do with "community". Whenever
 they figure out how to do a licensing gig like Micro$$$, to exploit
 all the PHP developers on the planet, then you will discover who
exactly the
 "governing body" for PHP is to be sure.

 My experience with User groups is that they tend to think they are the
 "driving force" for products when in reality they are, well, User
Groups and
 really don't have the power they think they do. They have the yearly
 meetings and put on their conferences etc. but its the Corporation
 roadmap that decides the directions for where the products go, not the
user groups.

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com

_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From ps at sun-code.com  Wed Apr 23 17:27:19 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:27:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>

It would most likely benefit all if the questions/situations/reviews
were based on very contemporary (if not forward looking) programming,
i.e. the cert would be heavily weighted towards security,
state/cookies/sessions, database related, file handling and uploads, and
internet/SOAP/CURL. 

Maybe a rough categories breakout might look like this:

 5 % -- Package(s) and install
 5 % -- PHP .ini 
15 % -- Security 
20 % -- Functions 
25 % -- Classes
 5 % -- Error Handling 
 5 % -- RegExp
10 % -- PEAR/PECL
 5 % -- Version Control 


Peter



-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of tedd
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:17 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer

Hi gang:

It would be nice to be a certified programmer -- I'm certified in 
other professions and it helps somewhat.

However, the problem as I see is two-fold:

1. What's required to become certified (obvious);

2. What are the qualifications of the governing body and its 
industry's support (not so obvious).

First, we need to establish a charter and solicit member 
participation. Then with numbers comes the authority to establish 
acceptable and proper criteria for certification.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 18:59:52 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:59:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@192.168.1.101>
	<000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com>

This is sillyness in my opinion.  All certs are fatally flawed.  As
soon as you write a good test, someone writes a better study guide.  I
personally think the latest Zend test would be hard to improve upon.
If you think you can do better than Zend, Microsoft, et al, I think
you are kidding yourself, but I would love to be proven wrong.

John C.


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 23 19:28:51 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:28:51 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
Message-ID: <1208993331.32111@coral.he.net>

Hi everyone --

My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box (don't 
ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() function and 
the mail isn't cooperating.  

(Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail 
Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.

So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, or 
there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get this 
to work?)

It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a 
significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the site.

Thanks for any help...

--Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the mail is 
not sending!)



From ps at sun-code.com  Wed Apr 23 19:39:25 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:39:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
	thePHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net><p06240805c4351b59b719@192.168.1.101><000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>
	<8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c8a59b$44261700$cc724500$@com>

There is nothing silly in engendering some conversation around promoting
an updatable cert that allows PHP to be constantly guiding programmers
up to and in to the known needed skills most highly anticipated in the
market today. 

I would like to clarify:

1) I originally suggested to simply use the Zend cert 

2) That I said that I felt that it behooves us as a professional group
of PHP programmers to have some standardized way to measure skill set to
clarify the career path for programmers and to give hiring managers some
kind of benchmark to start from 

3) I am not proposing that the cert be mandatory. It would be an
optional -- but highly recommended and PHP endorsed -- step that gives a
programmer a method to demonstrate his knowledge according to a known
standard 

Use the Zend cert. But PHP has to get behind it. And persuade it into
the hands of programmers/managers right from the get go.

I did my time. Read the books, made a library, read PDFs on my PDA while
I commuted, worked all night, fetched arcane answers from obscure blogs.


My experience says it would have helped to have a clearer professional
knowledge path set out.

But if we want to leave the industry as a bad lands of high plains
drifters and men with names who guard and protect their craft to the
exception of new comers then hey that is the way it stays and all enjoy.

But, I feel that if this PHP craft wants manage its identity. Plan ahead
for a future tightly integrated to more and more demanding
digital/internet alert businesses, then we should polish the methodology
of the tool set somewhat.

Pero, hombres, esto es solo mis dos centavos y usted debe construir sus
propios sue?os. 

Pedro




-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of John Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:00 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
thePHP+Developer

This is sillyness in my opinion.  All certs are fatally flawed.  As
soon as you write a good test, someone writes a better study guide.  I
personally think the latest Zend test would be hard to improve upon.
If you think you can do better than Zend, Microsoft, et al, I think
you are kidding yourself, but I would love to be proven wrong.

John C.
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From ps at sun-code.com  Wed Apr 23 19:48:11 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:48:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
	thePHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net><p06240805c4351b59b719@192.168.1.101><000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>
	<8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c8a59c$7d950ae0$78bf20a0$@com>

I'm sorry I left one thing out: I also muttered my way through many,
many help files apparently loosely translated from the original Balkan
on many, many unending moonless nights.  -P

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of John Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:00 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
thePHP+Developer

This is sillyness in my opinion.  All certs are fatally flawed.  As
soon as you write a good test, someone writes a better study guide.  I
personally think the latest Zend test would be hard to improve upon.
If you think you can do better than Zend, Microsoft, et al, I think
you are kidding yourself, but I would love to be proven wrong.

John C.
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Apr 23 20:25:24 2008
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:25:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
In-Reply-To: <1208993331.32111@coral.he.net>
References: <1208993331.32111@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <480FD374.1020704@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Hi everyone --
> 
> My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box (don't 
> ask...I have no idea why).

Because it is a stable setup and typically outperforms a LAMPP stack. I use 
this since day one and even before my PHP time for both development and 
production use.

> I'm trying to use the mail() function and 
> the mail isn't cooperating.  
> 
> (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail 
> Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.

I never got the mail() function to work right on Windows. There are tools 
around. I did try once the Unix Utilities from Luckasoft (get them here: 
http://luckasoft.com/download/UUtils_setup.exe). It is a freeware package for 
Windows that mimics sendmail. It has a GUI configuration program and accepts 
the same shell command format as known from Unix. But since this is a client's 
box installing extra stuff is probably the least desireable approach.

> So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, or 
> there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get this 
> to work?)

Well, there are other means. You may even google for the CLI of Outlook 
assuming it is setup and configured right.

> It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a 
> significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the site.
> 
> Thanks for any help...

Well, I guess once it works volume becomes a concern only when you send a lot 
of messages.

Sorry, I'm not excessively useful here.

David


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 23 20:43:06 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:43:06 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
Message-ID: <1208997786.20899@coral.he.net>

Thanks David,

I found the following...is it worth trying to modify the ini file or 
should I start trying to use the Zend mail function and/or Outlook?

//==

Runtime Configuration

The behavior of the mail functions is affected by settings in the 
php.ini file.


Mail configuration options:

Name Default Description Changeable 
SMTP "localhost" Windows only: The DNS name or IP address of the SMTP 
server PHP_INI_ALL 
smtp_port "25" Windows only: The SMTP port number. Available since PHP 
4.3 PHP_INI_ALL 
sendmail_from NULL Windows only: Specifies the "from" address to be 
used in email sent from PHP PHP_INI_ALL 

//==

BTW the client's environment is a hosted server and I will investigate 
the options available if we determine that this turkey won't fly as 
configured. I wasn't anticipating having to install anything and not 
sure whether that is an option.

--Kristina


> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Hi everyone --
> > 
> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
(don't 
> > ask...I have no idea why).
> 
> Because it is a stable setup and typically outperforms a LAMPP stack. 
I use 
> this since day one and even before my PHP time for both development 
and 
> production use.
> 
> > I'm trying to use the mail() function and 
> > the mail isn't cooperating.  
> > 
> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail 
> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
> 
> I never got the mail() function to work right on Windows. There are 
tools 
> around. I did try once the Unix Utilities from Luckasoft (get them 
here: 
> http://luckasoft.com/download/UUtils_setup.exe). It is a freeware 
package for 
> Windows that mimics sendmail. It has a GUI configuration program and 
accepts 
> the same shell command format as known from Unix. But since this is a 
client's 
> box installing extra stuff is probably the least desireable approach.
> 
> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, 
or 
> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
this 
> > to work?)
> 
> Well, there are other means. You may even google for the CLI of 
Outlook 
> assuming it is setup and configured right.
> 
> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a 
> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the 
site.
> > 
> > Thanks for any help...
> 
> Well, I guess once it works volume becomes a concern only when you 
send a lot 
> of messages.
> 
> Sorry, I'm not excessively useful here.
> 
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Wed Apr 23 20:50:03 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:50:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804230741l35090339i8cd2d8a957e68387@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080422220938.GA6099@panix.com>
	<8f0676b40804230741l35090339i8cd2d8a957e68387@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080424005003.GA27243@panix.com>

Hi John:

> I am a bit stuck with legacy naming that is all over the place.

Fun fun fun!


> Is there a defacto standard for schema naming?

There are loads of naming standards.  I think very highly of Peter 
Gulutzan.  The live version of the web page has been yanked, but 
Archive.org to the rescue...

http://web.archive.org/web/20070409075643rn_1/www.dbazine.com/db2/db2-disarticles/gulutzan5

I used to be in the plural camp.  But I've become fond of the singular 
camp.  That way the table can more easily match the names of the columns.  
This makes things easier when it comes to making automatic tools for 
sanitizing input and reverse engineering databases.  Particularly when it 
comes to things like this:

people
  person_id

loans
  loan_id

...VS...

person
  person_id

loan
  loan_id


> I never know what to name timestamp/date fields.

What's your issue?  Not calling things "date"?  I tend to call things 
"birth_date", "creation_date" etc.


> How would you name the following tables?
> Users
> Permissions
> User_Permissions  - a many to many connector table

system_user
system_permission
system_permission_user


But all this kind of stuff is up to personal taste.  When it comes down 
to taste, I often say, "Some people have it.  Some people don't." :)

All that aside, you didn't answer the burning question:  did my query 
suggestion work?! :)

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 21:40:03 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:40:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
In-Reply-To: <20080424005003.GA27243@panix.com>
References: <8f0676b40804221031u610d2d13v79e3d56826b0ee1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080422220938.GA6099@panix.com>
	<8f0676b40804230741l35090339i8cd2d8a957e68387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080424005003.GA27243@panix.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804231840l53dd68a0x9f56a1d3594741b8@mail.gmail.com>

>  I used to be in the plural camp.  But I've become fond of the singular
>  camp.  That way the table can more easily match the names of the columns.
>  This makes things easier when it comes to making automatic tools for
>  sanitizing input and reverse engineering databases.

Makes sense. I will join your camp.

>  > I never know what to name timestamp/date fields.
>
>  What's your issue?  Not calling things "date"?  I tend to call things
>  "birth_date", "creation_date" etc.

Yeah, that's the crux of the problem.  I feel like it is something I
shouldn't have to think about, but every time I create a table I have
to stop and think:
"date_created or creation_date or created or date_added or add_date" and
"transaction_time or transaction_timestamp or transaction_datetime or
transaction_date"

Then I think, I'll just follow the last guys convention and discover
"the_date" is being used.  "the_date" is wrong on so many levels that
I can't stand the thought of repeating it.


>  All that aside, you didn't answer the burning question:  did my query
>  suggestion work?! :)
>

Yes of course!... but Kenneth beat you to it.  I had it in my head
that I wanted a flexible fallback path for languages like:
zh_CN' -> zh_TW -> zh_US -> en_US
fr_CA -> fr_FR -> en_us

When I actually asked the question, I simplified it.  After I saw how
elegant and simple the two language solution is, I decided it wasn't
worth the additional complexity to have the fallback path.

Cheers,
John Campbell


From tim_lists at o2group.com  Wed Apr 23 22:08:38 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:08:38 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP
	and	thePHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <000d01c8a59c$7d950ae0$78bf20a0$@com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net><p06240805c4351b59b719@192.168.1.101><000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>	<8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com>
	<000d01c8a59c$7d950ae0$78bf20a0$@com>
Message-ID: <480FEBA6.7070906@o2group.com>

Certifications about particular technologies are dumb, unless there's a 
certain amount of built-in complexity that justifies them (or not, but I 
don't know what Cisco certifications are like, etc).  PHP is a small 
enough system that it doesn't warrant it.

Any competent programmer can become satisfactorily proficient in a 
language in less than two weeks (assuming the language is of a common 
langauge class -- C to lisp is hard.  Perl or C to php is simple.  Also 
see C++ to Java, PHP to ColdFusion, Java to C#, etc).  Given two or 
three months, that programmer who gained some proficiency can become 
fairly expert.

If you want a certification, it should be wider.

As someone who's in a position to hire, I'd love to see a really strong 
certification that I could count on.  This would require conceptual 
knowledge, not particulars about a language.

I want someone who can (among other things):

    - Administer UNIX-like servers.  Including some basic understaning 
of package management, and also (especially?) compiling from source.
    - Can at least make their way around a windows/IIS type system.
    - Understands version control systems (for me, CVS + SVN, but you'd 
probably need to understand VSS in the cert exam).
    - Knows how to program.  Understands how to optimize (and when).  
Understands recursion.
    - Has a good knowledge of object-oriented things. 
    - Knows their way around major design patterns (MVC, Singletons, 
Factories, and so on)
    - Understands SQL -- you might be a PHP-expert, but if you're 
writing bad SQL your app will suck (unless it eschews SQL entirely -- 
how often does that happen).
    - Understands XML parsers.
    - Understands some common XML-based standards (SOAP, RSS)
    - Knows how to write a cron job that will actually work.
    - Can manually interact with an SMTP server (via telnet)

Knowledge of PHP's syntax just simply pales in comparison to the 
importance of this stuff.  PHP is *easy* to learn if ... wait for it ... 
you know how to program your way out of a paper bag.  ($bag.exit();?  
exit($me,$bag);? $this.parent = null;? ... maybe it's harder than I 
thought ... getting claustrophobic!)

All this stuff (together) is hard to test for, and it's hardly an 
exhaustive list.  It's also just the start of the list that *I* want -- 
some people might not care about version control, for instance.

But a much better place to start, IMO, is not a PHP certification, but 
some kind of overall web-development certification. 

I care a LOT more about a candidate having a good understanding of 
relational databases than I do about them understanding PHP.  I also 
want my subordinates to be clear on good semantic markup, and have a 
good, solid understanding of Javascript (these days).




From jbaltz at altzman.com  Wed Apr 23 22:09:38 2008
From: jbaltz at altzman.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:09:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
	PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <000001c8a588$9dd311d0$d9793570$@com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net><p06240805c4351b59b719@[192.168.1.101]><7.0.1.0.2.20080423132833.02c1a5f8@e-government.com><p0624080ac4352845be81@[192.168.1.101]>
	<266866576.20080424030903@qualityadvantages.com>
	<000001c8a588$9dd311d0$d9793570$@com>
Message-ID: <480FEBE2.4010507@altzman.com>

on 2008-04-23 17:25 Peter Sawczynec said the following:
> I believe the most beneficial PHP+ cert that we can strive for would be
> more on par with a Cisco cert. An acknowledged, industry heavy weight,

Note that the lower-level Cisco certs (i.e. everything but the CCIE or 
its equivalent) now have a multitude of boot-camps available for them to 
push you through in a weekend, and therefore their value, both real and 
perceived, is slipping. It's been a while since I've studied the finer 
trivia of Cisco kit, but I'm confident I could muster a passing score 
all the way up to CCNP without studying for more than a weekend--a week, 
tops. Would you let me loose on your routers *only* knowing *that*? (The 
fact that I deal with Cisco kit in other ways on a daily basis 
notwithstanding...)

What makes the CCIE so valuable is that it contains both a written and a 
lab component, and the latter is damn *hard* -- it has a real failure 
rate in the double digits -- so that it's unlikely that you'll be able 
to pass it through book learning alone. That is to say: in order to pass 
it, you're most likely an experienced practitioner already.

I see a lot of talk about certifications, and I have to reiterate the 
question: why bother? In other words, what are you trying to accomplish? 
In order for it to really fulfill its mission, a certification basically 
needs to substantiate someone's years of experience and actual ability 
to perform: it's a *certification* that you can *do something* that 
isn't just your word for it, and it comes from an impartial third party 
(whoever they may be).

Of course, it matters a bit who the certifying authority is (which is 
why people value degrees from real colleges over mail-order degrees), 
but unless there is a statutory requirement for licensure and 
registration, the only value of the certification "in the marketplace" 
is what the holders are actually doing: if you've got a certificate that 
is, in a word, achievable in a week's intensive course, it's worthless 
except to paper collectors, and the market will value the certification 
accordingly.

> difficult but well worth while cert. I believe that the cert should be
> advanced, sophisticated and relatively difficult -- the PHP+ cert should
> not be about qualifying entry-level initiates, it would be used for
> qualifying middle to expert level.

Peter has successfully compiled the correct here. I would take it 
further: the exam should be QUITE difficult, and dilettantes should NOT 
be able to pass it.

Make a certification more like the PE, where you must show verifiable 
years of experience (signed off by another in the field), and have a 
tough exam on top of that (and I'm not even counting the EIT), or more 
like the CCIE, with a very difficult pair of exams, *written and 
practical*, and then you'd have a certification that is worth bandying 
about--something that conveys the elusive "I should get paid more 
because I'm *demonstrably* worth it" message.

Oh yes, it should also need to be renewed every 7 years or so, not just 
to generate income for the certifying authority, but to demonstrate that 
you're still at the level you claim to be.

> There could/should be a separate entry-level cert if needed.

Given the field of programming, I would suggest the "fog a mirror" 
certification. For $29.95, I'll provide you with a certificate suitable 
for framing. For $39.95, I'll even make it 3 color. (Latin available 
upon request, and only to Kristina.)

> Peter

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 23 22:21:43 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:21:43 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
	the	PHP+Developer
Message-ID: <1209003703.23020@coral.he.net>

Really hope the questions about Left Outer Joins using COALESCE and how 
to get mail() to work on a Windows box aren't on the cert test??

Or I'm doo doo. :)

PS I'm not sure how to say "fogged a mirror" in Latin but we can look 
it up!

> on 2008-04-23 17:25 Peter Sawczynec said the following:
> > I believe the most beneficial PHP+ cert that we can strive for 
would be
> > more on par with a Cisco cert. An acknowledged, industry heavy 
weight,
> 
> Note that the lower-level Cisco certs (i.e. everything but the CCIE 
or 
> its equivalent) now have a multitude of boot-camps available for them 
to 
> push you through in a weekend, and therefore their value, both real 
and 
> perceived, is slipping. It's been a while since I've studied the 
finer 
> trivia of Cisco kit, but I'm confident I could muster a passing score 
> all the way up to CCNP without studying for more than a weekend--a 
week, 
> tops. Would you let me loose on your routers *only* knowing *that*? 
(The 
> fact that I deal with Cisco kit in other ways on a daily basis 
> notwithstanding...)
> 
> What makes the CCIE so valuable is that it contains both a written 
and a 
> lab component, and the latter is damn *hard* -- it has a real failure 
> rate in the double digits -- so that it's unlikely that you'll be 
able 
> to pass it through book learning alone. That is to say: in order to 
pass 
> it, you're most likely an experienced practitioner already.
> 
> I see a lot of talk about certifications, and I have to reiterate the 
> question: why bother? In other words, what are you trying to 
accomplish? 
> In order for it to really fulfill its mission, a certification 
basically 
> needs to substantiate someone's years of experience and actual 
ability 
> to perform: it's a *certification* that you can *do something* that 
> isn't just your word for it, and it comes from an impartial third 
party 
> (whoever they may be).
> 
> Of course, it matters a bit who the certifying authority is (which is 
> why people value degrees from real colleges over mail-order degrees), 
> but unless there is a statutory requirement for licensure and 
> registration, the only value of the certification "in the 
marketplace" 
> is what the holders are actually doing: if you've got a certificate 
that 
> is, in a word, achievable in a week's intensive course, it's 
worthless 
> except to paper collectors, and the market will value the 
certification 
> accordingly.
> 
> > difficult but well worth while cert. I believe that the cert should 
be
> > advanced, sophisticated and relatively difficult -- the PHP+ cert 
should
> > not be about qualifying entry-level initiates, it would be used for
> > qualifying middle to expert level.
> 
> Peter has successfully compiled the correct here. I would take it 
> further: the exam should be QUITE difficult, and dilettantes should 
NOT 
> be able to pass it.
> 
> Make a certification more like the PE, where you must show verifiable 
> years of experience (signed off by another in the field), and have a 
> tough exam on top of that (and I'm not even counting the EIT), or 
more 
> like the CCIE, with a very difficult pair of exams, *written and 
> practical*, and then you'd have a certification that is worth 
bandying 
> about--something that conveys the elusive "I should get paid more 
> because I'm *demonstrably* worth it" message.
> 
> Oh yes, it should also need to be renewed every 7 years or so, not 
just 
> to generate income for the certifying authority, but to demonstrate 
that 
> you're still at the level you claim to be.
> 
> > There could/should be a separate entry-level cert if needed.
> 
> Given the field of programming, I would suggest the "fog a mirror" 
> certification. For $29.95, I'll provide you with a certificate 
suitable 
> for framing. For $39.95, I'll even make it 3 color. (Latin available 
> upon request, and only to Kristina.)
> 
> > Peter
> 
> //jbaltz
> -- 
> jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at altzman.com     www.jbaltz.com
> thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Wed Apr 23 22:23:39 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:23:39 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise
	PHP	and	thePHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <480FEBA6.7070906@o2group.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net><p06240805c4351b59b719@192.168.1.101><000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>	<8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com>	<000d01c8a59c$7d950ae0$78bf20a0$@com>
	<480FEBA6.7070906@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <480FEF2B.9030302@o2group.com>

Following up on my own post, just to be clear -- I think a certification 
exam for web developers is impossible. And/or the fact that you know PHP 
inside and out doesn't make you worth anything on a real project. You 
can't reduce the breadth and complexity to a multiple-choice test.  Such 
a setup is too easily gamed.

What might be interesting would be some kind of jury system.  If there 
were a 4-ish person jury consisting of, I dunno, Steve Manes, Tom 
Riemer, Jack Slocum, and Chris Corbyn , who would review a bunch of 
"thesis-like" stuff you put together, and then hop on a chat and 
interrogate you for an hour before saying "yeah, this guy/gal is pro or 
slow" -- then I might pay attention to that, when hiring you.

So who wants to help recruit some recognizable names, and start selling 
"shots" at such a cert.  Maybe 3 or 5 $k to sit in front of the jury ... 
I mean, you've got to pay these juries well.  These are busy people.

-Tim



Tim Lieberman wrote:
> Certifications about particular technologies are dumb, unless there's 
> a certain amount of built-in complexity that justifies them (or not, 
> but I don't know what Cisco certifications are like, etc).  PHP is a 
> small enough system that it doesn't warrant it.
>
> Any competent programmer can become satisfactorily proficient in a 
> language in less than two weeks (assuming the language is of a common 
> langauge class -- C to lisp is hard.  Perl or C to php is simple.  
> Also see C++ to Java, PHP to ColdFusion, Java to C#, etc).  Given two 
> or three months, that programmer who gained some proficiency can 
> become fairly expert.
>
> If you want a certification, it should be wider.
>
> As someone who's in a position to hire, I'd love to see a really 
> strong certification that I could count on.  This would require 
> conceptual knowledge, not particulars about a language.
>
> I want someone who can (among other things):
>
>    - Administer UNIX-like servers.  Including some basic understaning 
> of package management, and also (especially?) compiling from source.
>    - Can at least make their way around a windows/IIS type system.
>    - Understands version control systems (for me, CVS + SVN, but you'd 
> probably need to understand VSS in the cert exam).
>    - Knows how to program.  Understands how to optimize (and when).  
> Understands recursion.
>    - Has a good knowledge of object-oriented things.    - Knows their 
> way around major design patterns (MVC, Singletons, Factories, and so on)
>    - Understands SQL -- you might be a PHP-expert, but if you're 
> writing bad SQL your app will suck (unless it eschews SQL entirely -- 
> how often does that happen).
>    - Understands XML parsers.
>    - Understands some common XML-based standards (SOAP, RSS)
>    - Knows how to write a cron job that will actually work.
>    - Can manually interact with an SMTP server (via telnet)
>
> Knowledge of PHP's syntax just simply pales in comparison to the 
> importance of this stuff.  PHP is *easy* to learn if ... wait for it 
> ... you know how to program your way out of a paper bag.  
> ($bag.exit();?  exit($me,$bag);? $this.parent = null;? ... maybe it's 
> harder than I thought ... getting claustrophobic!)
>
> All this stuff (together) is hard to test for, and it's hardly an 
> exhaustive list.  It's also just the start of the list that *I* want 
> -- some people might not care about version control, for instance.
>
> But a much better place to start, IMO, is not a PHP certification, but 
> some kind of overall web-development certification.
> I care a LOT more about a candidate having a good understanding of 
> relational databases than I do about them understanding PHP.  I also 
> want my subordinates to be clear on good semantic markup, and have a 
> good, solid understanding of Javascript (these days).
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Wed Apr 23 22:27:45 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:27:45 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
In-Reply-To: <1208997786.20899@coral.he.net>
References: <1208997786.20899@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <480FF021.6090004@o2group.com>

mail() used to work fine on windows (under IIS, anyway) last time I had 
to deal with it (years ago).

My suggestion:
    - Get an SMTP server hostname at your hosting provider
    - Use a better mail-sending system, like swiftmailer: 
http://www.swiftmailer.org/ (I think you can still get a reasonably 
up-to-date version that will work w. php4)
    - Send mail by having PHP talk directly to a dedicated SMTP box. 

This is almost always the right answer.

-Tim

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Thanks David,
>
> I found the following...is it worth trying to modify the ini file or 
> should I start trying to use the Zend mail function and/or Outlook?
>
> //==
>
> Runtime Configuration
>
> The behavior of the mail functions is affected by settings in the 
> php.ini file.
>
>
> Mail configuration options:
>
> Name Default Description Changeable 
> SMTP "localhost" Windows only: The DNS name or IP address of the SMTP 
> server PHP_INI_ALL 
> smtp_port "25" Windows only: The SMTP port number. Available since PHP 
> 4.3 PHP_INI_ALL 
> sendmail_from NULL Windows only: Specifies the "from" address to be 
> used in email sent from PHP PHP_INI_ALL 
>
> //==
>
> BTW the client's environment is a hosted server and I will investigate 
> the options available if we determine that this turkey won't fly as 
> configured. I wasn't anticipating having to install anything and not 
> sure whether that is an option.
>
> --Kristina
>
>
>   
>> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi everyone --
>>>
>>> My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
>>>       
> (don't 
>   
>>> ask...I have no idea why).
>>>       
>> Because it is a stable setup and typically outperforms a LAMPP stack. 
>>     
> I use 
>   
>> this since day one and even before my PHP time for both development 
>>     
> and 
>   
>> production use.
>>
>>     
>>> I'm trying to use the mail() function and 
>>> the mail isn't cooperating.  
>>>
>>> (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail 
>>> Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>>>       
>> I never got the mail() function to work right on Windows. There are 
>>     
> tools 
>   
>> around. I did try once the Unix Utilities from Luckasoft (get them 
>>     
> here: 
>   
>> http://luckasoft.com/download/UUtils_setup.exe). It is a freeware 
>>     
> package for 
>   
>> Windows that mimics sendmail. It has a GUI configuration program and 
>>     
> accepts 
>   
>> the same shell command format as known from Unix. But since this is a 
>>     
> client's 
>   
>> box installing extra stuff is probably the least desireable approach.
>>
>>     
>>> So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, 
>>>       
> or 
>   
>>> there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
>>>       
> this 
>   
>>> to work?)
>>>       
>> Well, there are other means. You may even google for the CLI of 
>>     
> Outlook 
>   
>> assuming it is setup and configured right.
>>
>>     
>>> It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a 
>>> significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the 
>>>       
> site.
>   
>>> Thanks for any help...
>>>       
>> Well, I guess once it works volume becomes a concern only when you 
>>     
> send a lot 
>   
>> of messages.
>>
>> Sorry, I'm not excessively useful here.
>>
>> David
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 23 22:36:11 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:36:11 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
Message-ID: <1209004571.26577@coral.he.net>

Tim -- thanks -- 

I am 99% sure that it's not my code that's the issue...I will look into 
the below first thing in the morning.  If it comes down to it, we can 
port the site to a new server if we can't make it work in this 
environment.

-- Kristina

> mail() used to work fine on windows (under IIS, anyway) last time I 
had 
> to deal with it (years ago).
> 
> My suggestion:
>     - Get an SMTP server hostname at your hosting provider
>     - Use a better mail-sending system, like swiftmailer: 
> http://www.swiftmailer.org/ (I think you can still get a reasonably 
> up-to-date version that will work w. php4)
>     - Send mail by having PHP talk directly to a dedicated SMTP box. 
> 
> This is almost always the right answer.
> 
> -Tim
> 
> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Thanks David,
> >
> > I found the following...is it worth trying to modify the ini file 
or 
> > should I start trying to use the Zend mail function and/or Outlook?
> >
> > //==
> >
> > Runtime Configuration
> >
> > The behavior of the mail functions is affected by settings in the 
> > php.ini file.
> >
> >
> > Mail configuration options:
> >
> > Name Default Description Changeable 
> > SMTP "localhost" Windows only: The DNS name or IP address of the 
SMTP 
> > server PHP_INI_ALL 
> > smtp_port "25" Windows only: The SMTP port number. Available since 
PHP 
> > 4.3 PHP_INI_ALL 
> > sendmail_from NULL Windows only: Specifies the "from" address to be 
> > used in email sent from PHP PHP_INI_ALL 
> >
> > //==
> >
> > BTW the client's environment is a hosted server and I will 
investigate 
> > the options available if we determine that this turkey won't fly as 
> > configured. I wasn't anticipating having to install anything and 
not 
> > sure whether that is an option.
> >
> > --Kristina
> >
> >
> >   
> >> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >>     
> >>> Hi everyone --
> >>>
> >>> My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
> >>>       
> > (don't 
> >   
> >>> ask...I have no idea why).
> >>>       
> >> Because it is a stable setup and typically outperforms a LAMPP 
stack. 
> >>     
> > I use 
> >   
> >> this since day one and even before my PHP time for both 
development 
> >>     
> > and 
> >   
> >> production use.
> >>
> >>     
> >>> I'm trying to use the mail() function and 
> >>> the mail isn't cooperating.  
> >>>
> >>> (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal 
Sendmail 
> >>> Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
> >>>       
> >> I never got the mail() function to work right on Windows. There 
are 
> >>     
> > tools 
> >   
> >> around. I did try once the Unix Utilities from Luckasoft (get them 
> >>     
> > here: 
> >   
> >> http://luckasoft.com/download/UUtils_setup.exe). It is a freeware 
> >>     
> > package for 
> >   
> >> Windows that mimics sendmail. It has a GUI configuration program 
and 
> >>     
> > accepts 
> >   
> >> the same shell command format as known from Unix. But since this 
is a 
> >>     
> > client's 
> >   
> >> box installing extra stuff is probably the least desireable 
approach.
> >>
> >>     
> >>> So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the 
mails, 
> >>>       
> > or 
> >   
> >>> there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
> >>>       
> > this 
> >   
> >>> to work?)
> >>>       
> >> Well, there are other means. You may even google for the CLI of 
> >>     
> > Outlook 
> >   
> >> assuming it is setup and configured right.
> >>
> >>     
> >>> It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a 
> >>> significant amount of automated emails to registered people on 
the 
> >>>       
> > site.
> >   
> >>> Thanks for any help...
> >>>       
> >> Well, I guess once it works volume becomes a concern only when you 
> >>     
> > send a lot 
> >   
> >> of messages.
> >>
> >> Sorry, I'm not excessively useful here.
> >>
> >> David
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >>
> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >>
> >>
> >>     
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Wed Apr 23 22:39:32 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:39:32 +0800
Subject: Spam: Re[2]: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP
	and the PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <1208981266.27052@coral.he.net>
References: <1208981266.27052@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1896029374.20080424103932@qualityadvantages.com>

Hello Kristina,



> Unfortunately, there are few geniuses in HR :)

HA! I'll second, third and fourth that one!  I have seen many who
thought they were ... LOL

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Wed Apr 23 22:47:02 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:47:02 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
In-Reply-To: <1208993331.32111@coral.he.net>
References: <1208993331.32111@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <281084528.20080424104702@qualityadvantages.com>

Hello Kristina,

Thursday, April 24, 2008, 7:28:51 AM, you wrote:

> Hi everyone --

> My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box (don't
> ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() function and 
> the mail isn't cooperating.  

> (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail 
> Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.

> So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, or 
> there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get this 
> to work?)

> It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a 
> significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the site.

> Thanks for any help...

> --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the mail is 
> not sending!)

> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com

> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

> __________ NOD32 3050 (20080423) Information __________

> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com


On the windows box you have to use the SMTP settings in PHP.ini AND
they need to point to your external mail server AND that external mail
server needs to not have port 25 blocked. My current ISP recently
blocked port 25 so my php mail quit working. I was using the same
access setting that I use for my POP account and it was working prior
to that, fyi. The alternative phpmailer works pretty well at least the
new one does so you might want to take a look at that to "fix" the php
mail problem on the windows box. Unfortunately, no elegant solutions
there for windows.

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Wed Apr 23 22:53:28 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:53:28 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
In-Reply-To: <1208997786.20899@coral.he.net>
References: <1208997786.20899@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1778005576.20080424105328@qualityadvantages.com>

Hello Kristina,

Thursday, April 24, 2008, 8:43:06 AM, you wrote:

> Thanks David,

> I found the following...is it worth trying to modify the ini file or 
> should I start trying to use the Zend mail function and/or Outlook?

> //==

> Runtime Configuration

> The behavior of the mail functions is affected by settings in the 
> php.ini file.


> Mail configuration options:

> Name Default Description Changeable 
> SMTP "localhost" Windows only: The DNS name or IP address of the SMTP 
> server PHP_INI_ALL 
> smtp_port "25" Windows only: The SMTP port number. Available since PHP
> 4.3 PHP_INI_ALL 
> sendmail_from NULL Windows only: Specifies the "from" address to be 
> used in email sent from PHP PHP_INI_ALL 

> //==

> BTW the client's environment is a hosted server and I will investigate
> the options available if we determine that this turkey won't fly as 
> configured. I wasn't anticipating having to install anything and not 
> sure whether that is an option.

> --Kristina


>> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>> > Hi everyone --
>> > 
>> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
> (don't 
>> > ask...I have no idea why).
>> 
>> Because it is a stable setup and typically outperforms a LAMPP stack. 
> I use 
>> this since day one and even before my PHP time for both development 
> and 
>> production use.
>> 
>> > I'm trying to use the mail() function and 
>> > the mail isn't cooperating.  
>> > 
>> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail 
>> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>> 
>> I never got the mail() function to work right on Windows. There are 
> tools 
>> around. I did try once the Unix Utilities from Luckasoft (get them 
> here: 
>> http://luckasoft.com/download/UUtils_setup.exe). It is a freeware 
> package for 
>> Windows that mimics sendmail. It has a GUI configuration program and 
> accepts 
>> the same shell command format as known from Unix. But since this is a 
> client's 
>> box installing extra stuff is probably the least desireable approach.
>> 
>> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, 
> or 
>> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
> this 
>> > to work?)
>> 
>> Well, there are other means. You may even google for the CLI of 
> Outlook 
>> assuming it is setup and configured right.
>> 
>> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a 
>> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the 
> site.
>> > 
>> > Thanks for any help...
>> 
>> Well, I guess once it works volume becomes a concern only when you 
> send a lot 
>> of messages.
>> 
>> Sorry, I'm not excessively useful here.
>> 
>> David
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>> 
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>> 
>> 


> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com

> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

> __________ NOD32 3050 (20080423) Information __________

> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com


Forgot, I was using the mail.mysite.com and the IP address for same
with similar results and it worked beautifully until they blocked the
SMTP port on me.

I have had mixed results with windows sendmail clones. Fake Sendmail
worked sometimes but crashed a lot so I stopped using it. Pear Mail
works beautifully and allows you to specify authentication settings so
you can log into your external mailserver.

HTH

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Wed Apr 23 23:06:36 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:06:36 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
In-Reply-To: <1778005576.20080424105328@qualityadvantages.com>
References: <1208997786.20899@coral.he.net>
	<1778005576.20080424105328@qualityadvantages.com>
Message-ID: <480FF93C.9060507@o2group.com>

mikesz at qualityadvantages.com wrote:
> Forgot, I was using the mail.mysite.com and the IP address for same
> with similar results and it worked beautifully until they blocked the
> SMTP port on me.
>
> I have had mixed results with windows sendmail clones. Fake Sendmail
> worked sometimes but crashed a lot so I stopped using it. Pear Mail
> works beautifully and allows you to specify authentication settings so
> you can log into your external mailserver
>   
As I said earlier, moving away from just "mail()" is usually a good idea.

phpmailer used to be what I'd use, until I found swiftmailer, which is 
capable, nicely designed, and nicely implemented, and nicely documented.

the only downside to swiftmailer might be that newer releases are 
php5-only.  But I think that at the moment, there are separate php4 and 
php5 libraries available.

-Tim



From ps at sun-code.com  Thu Apr 24 05:35:52 2008
From: ps at sun-code.com (Peter Sawczynec)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:35:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <480FEBA6.7070906@o2group.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net><p06240805c4351b59b719@192.168.1.101><000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>	<8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com><000d01c8a59c$7d950ae0$78bf20a0$@com>
	<480FEBA6.7070906@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <000001c8a5ee$96d685e0$c48391a0$@com>

Now this roll up (redisplayed below) from Time Lieberman is excellent
and elegantly captures what a real PHP+ programmer would be. And in
reality and based on my own experience too, this skill set is exactly
what is most often needed and even silently tacitly expected when you
step into an advanced PHP programmer job OR you will likely need all
this knowledge if you are independently consulting and taking on entire
web site design, development and maintenance.

--------------- START: T. Lieberman advanced PHP+ rollup ------------

I want someone who can (among other things):

- Administer UNIX-like servers. Including some basic understanding of
package management, and also (especially?) compiling from source.
- Can at least make their way around a windows/IIS type system.
- Understands version control systems (for me, CVS + SVN, but you'd
probably need to understand VSS in the cert exam).
- Knows how to program.  Understands how to optimize (and when).
Understands recursion.
- Has a good knowledge of object-oriented things. 
- Knows their way around major design patterns (MVC, Singletons,
Factories, and so on)
- Understands SQL -- you might be a PHP-expert, but if you're writing
bad SQL your app will suck (unless it eschews SQL entirely -- how often
does that happen).
- Understands XML parsers.
- Understands some common XML-based standards (SOAP, RSS)
- Knows how to write a cron job that will actually work.
- Can manually interact with an SMTP server (via telnet) 

--------------- END: T. Lieberman advanced PHP+ rollup ------------

I would suggest to any average PHP programmer who is looking for a hot
list of "what do I need to know" to really get ahead. Then you can use
the above list almost like bible, the above knowledge set (with or
without a cert to test you) is a very good full tool kit of skills that
will make you a very valuable and versatile member/manager on most any
PHP job -- full time/part time/freelance.

My list below, I would suggest then, is very good knowledge set for a
beginner/intermediate level.


--------------- START: P. Sawczynec beginner/intermediate PHP+ rollup
------------

-- State/cookies/sessions 
-- Database related 
-- Email 
-- Forms 
-- File handling and uploads 
-- Internet/SOAP/CURL 

Educate yourself roughly committing time to concepts in these
percentages shown below:

 5 % -- Package(s) and install
 5 % -- PHP .ini 
15 % -- Security 
20 % -- Functions 
25 % -- Classes
 5 % -- Error Handling 
 5 % -- RegExp
10 % -- PEAR/PECL
 5 % -- Version Control 

--------------- END: P. Sawczynec beginner/intermediate PHP+ rollup
------------

Well, well something quite good has already come of this thread.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On Behalf Of Tim Lieberman
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:09 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHPand
thePHP+Developer

Certifications about particular technologies are dumb, unless there's a 
certain amount of built-in complexity that justifies them (or not, but I

don't know what Cisco certifications are like, etc).  PHP is a small 
enough system that it doesn't warrant it.

Any competent programmer can become satisfactorily proficient in a 
language in less than two weeks (assuming the language is of a common 
langauge class -- C to lisp is hard.  Perl or C to php is simple.  Also 
see C++ to Java, PHP to ColdFusion, Java to C#, etc).  Given two or 
three months, that programmer who gained some proficiency can become 
fairly expert.

If you want a certification, it should be wider.

As someone who's in a position to hire, I'd love to see a really strong 
certification that I could count on.  This would require conceptual 
knowledge, not particulars about a language.

I want someone who can (among other things):

    - Administer UNIX-like servers.  Including some basic understaning 
of package management, and also (especially?) compiling from source.
    - Can at least make their way around a windows/IIS type system.
    - Understands version control systems (for me, CVS + SVN, but you'd 
probably need to understand VSS in the cert exam).
    - Knows how to program.  Understands how to optimize (and when).  
Understands recursion.
    - Has a good knowledge of object-oriented things. 
    - Knows their way around major design patterns (MVC, Singletons, 
Factories, and so on)
    - Understands SQL -- you might be a PHP-expert, but if you're 
writing bad SQL your app will suck (unless it eschews SQL entirely -- 
how often does that happen).
    - Understands XML parsers.
    - Understands some common XML-based standards (SOAP, RSS)
    - Knows how to write a cron job that will actually work.
    - Can manually interact with an SMTP server (via telnet)

Knowledge of PHP's syntax just simply pales in comparison to the 
importance of this stuff.  PHP is *easy* to learn if ... wait for it ...

you know how to program your way out of a paper bag.  ($bag.exit();?  
exit($me,$bag);? $this.parent = null;? ... maybe it's harder than I 
thought ... getting claustrophobic!)

All this stuff (together) is hard to test for, and it's hardly an 
exhaustive list.  It's also just the start of the list that *I* want -- 
some people might not care about version control, for instance.

But a much better place to start, IMO, is not a PHP certification, but 
some kind of overall web-development certification. 

I care a LOT more about a candidate having a good understanding of 
relational databases than I do about them understanding PHP.  I also 
want my subordinates to be clear on good semantic markup, and have a 
good, solid understanding of Javascript (these days).


_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php




From SyAD at aol.com  Thu Apr 24 08:54:35 2008
From: SyAD at aol.com (SyAD at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:54:35 EDT
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MySQL - SQL Question
Message-ID: <c5a.2d7a4b51.3541dd0b@aol.com>

 
Just to give you another convention, I do:
 
1) tbl<object> for tables, with the singular, like tblEmployee -- not really 
necessary in SQL statements directly, but I use a class to generate SQL 
statements, so in PHP function calls I can tell what's a table more easily
2) I capitalize field names with no delimiter, except that I do all caps for 
acronyms, like EmployeeName, EmployeeID
3) For dates, for some reason I put Date at the beginning, like DateOrdered, 
DateShipped.
 
Steve
 
In a message dated 4/23/2008 9:40:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jcampbell1 at gmail.com writes:

>  I used to be in the plural camp.  But I've become fond of the singular
>  camp.  That way the table can more easily match the names of the columns.
>  This makes things easier when it comes to making automatic tools for
>  sanitizing input and reverse engineering databases.

Makes sense. I will join your camp.

>  > I never know what to name timestamp/date fields.
>
>  What's your issue?  Not calling things "date"?  I tend to call things
>  "birth_date", "creation_date" etc.

Yeah, that's the crux of the problem.  I feel like it is something I
shouldn't have to think about, but every time I create a table I have
to stop and think:
"date_created or creation_date or created or date_added or add_date" and
"transaction_time or transaction_timestamp or transaction_datetime or
transaction_date"

Then I think, I'll just follow the last guys convention and discover
"the_date" is being used.  "the_date" is wrong on so many levels that
I can't stand the thought of repeating it.


>  All that aside, you didn't answer the burning question:  did my query
>  suggestion work?! :)
>

Yes of course!... but Kenneth beat you to it.  I had it in my head
that I wanted a flexible fallback path for languages like:
zh_CN' -> zh_TW -> zh_US -> en_US
fr_CA -> fr_FR -> en_us

When I actually asked the question, I simplified it.  After I saw how
elegant and simple the two language solution is, I decided it wasn't
worth the additional complexity to have the fallback path.

Cheers,
John Campbell
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
http://www.nyphpcon.com

Show Your Participation in New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php





**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
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From tom at supertom.com  Thu Apr 24 10:29:09 2008
From: tom at supertom.com (Tom Melendez)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:29:09 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the PHP+
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <000001c8a5ee$96d685e0$c48391a0$@com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804231034210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>
	<p06240805c4351b59b719@192.168.1.101>
	<000101c8a588$d016ce70$70446b50$@com>
	<8f0676b40804231559i664de23ek4cdad99d25f68292@mail.gmail.com>
	<000d01c8a59c$7d950ae0$78bf20a0$@com> <480FEBA6.7070906@o2group.com>
	<000001c8a5ee$96d685e0$c48391a0$@com>
Message-ID: <117286890804240729s52aa2acbk8bfcfc1e2aa42c87@mail.gmail.com>

So, everyone knows what I think of this thread and the one preceding
it regarding testing and such.  I won't go there.

However, now that some specs have been laid as to what some employers
want and some ideas for the implementation, I challenge everyone (or
anyone interested) to put some numbers and policy ideas behind it.

1.  Potential employers have spec'ed out what they want (list below,
for example) and how to prove it (test, jury system).  Well, how much
are you willing to pay?  Candidates, how much do you need to do this?
Is it worth it?  IMO, the "jury aspect" easily makes this $150K+perks,
benefits as you are greatly narrowing the available talent pool

2. How does a developer who goes through this process have their
investment of time and money protected?  So, I just spent 5k on the
jury process and passed.  Are companies allowed to hire non-certified
developers?  If so, then what is the value of my investment?  If they
are not, sounds like a union to me.  And if it is a union, don't you
think that it would just force more work overseas as unlike
contractors and electricians, our work is not bound geographically?
Do we then need state and national regulation to prevent this?

People seem really passionate about this idea - so lets flesh it out
and see if it really works, then.

Finally, to the employers, if you wouldn't mind, I would be interested
in hearing about some of the horror stories that have driven you to
this.  I want to hear the scenarios that you feel this testing and
policy (my word, not yours) fixes.  For example, did you have someone
on staff that during a "crunch time" didn't know how to use cURL while
a big client was on the phone?  That kind of thing.

Tom
http://www.liphp.org

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:35 AM, Peter Sawczynec <ps at sun-code.com> wrote:
> Now this roll up (redisplayed below) from Time Lieberman is excellent
>  and elegantly captures what a real PHP+ programmer would be. And in
>  reality and based on my own experience too, this skill set is exactly
>  what is most often needed and even silently tacitly expected when you
>  step into an advanced PHP programmer job OR you will likely need all
>  this knowledge if you are independently consulting and taking on entire
>  web site design, development and maintenance.
>
>  --------------- START: T. Lieberman advanced PHP+ rollup ------------
>
>
>  I want someone who can (among other things):
>
>  - Administer UNIX-like servers. Including some basic understanding of
>
> package management, and also (especially?) compiling from source.
>  - Can at least make their way around a windows/IIS type system.
>  - Understands version control systems (for me, CVS + SVN, but you'd
>  probably need to understand VSS in the cert exam).
>  - Knows how to program.  Understands how to optimize (and when).
>  Understands recursion.
>  - Has a good knowledge of object-oriented things.
>  - Knows their way around major design patterns (MVC, Singletons,
>  Factories, and so on)
>  - Understands SQL -- you might be a PHP-expert, but if you're writing
>  bad SQL your app will suck (unless it eschews SQL entirely -- how often
>  does that happen).
>  - Understands XML parsers.
>  - Understands some common XML-based standards (SOAP, RSS)
>  - Knows how to write a cron job that will actually work.
>  - Can manually interact with an SMTP server (via telnet)
>
>  --------------- END: T. Lieberman advanced PHP+ rollup ------------
>
>  I would suggest to any average PHP programmer who is looking for a hot
>  list of "what do I need to know" to really get ahead. Then you can use
>  the above list almost like bible, the above knowledge set (with or
>  without a cert to test you) is a very good full tool kit of skills that
>  will make you a very valuable and versatile member/manager on most any
>  PHP job -- full time/part time/freelance.
>
>  My list below, I would suggest then, is very good knowledge set for a
>  beginner/intermediate level.
>
>
>  --------------- START: P. Sawczynec beginner/intermediate PHP+ rollup
>  ------------
>
>  -- State/cookies/sessions
>  -- Database related
>  -- Email
>  -- Forms
>  -- File handling and uploads
>  -- Internet/SOAP/CURL
>
>  Educate yourself roughly committing time to concepts in these
>  percentages shown below:
>
>
>   5 % -- Package(s) and install
>   5 % -- PHP .ini
>  15 % -- Security
>  20 % -- Functions
>  25 % -- Classes
>   5 % -- Error Handling
>   5 % -- RegExp
>  10 % -- PEAR/PECL
>   5 % -- Version Control
>
>  --------------- END: P. Sawczynec beginner/intermediate PHP+ rollup
>  ------------
>
>  Well, well something quite good has already come of this thread.
>
>  Peter
>
>


From tedd at sperling.com  Thu Apr 24 10:47:53 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:47:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and
	the 	PHP+	Developer
In-Reply-To: <1208979498.17701@coral.he.net>
References: <1208979498.17701@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240808c4364b568f0b@[192.168.1.101]>

At 12:38 PM -0700 4/23/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>Mike -- 99.9% of the people posting on this list do have a university
>degree, from what I have seen!  A lot of them have MS or PhDs, even.
>
>But, a 10- or 20-year old degree doesn't prove anything when it comes
>to current technology.  A certification in current technology proves
>that you are knowledgeable in a certain area, at least to a certain
>extent, and also quantifies the knowledge base for our profession as
>PHP programmers, which is why we are (mostly) in favor of a cert.
>
--Kristina (B.A., 1985) :)

Kristina:

I think the technology is moving faster than academia. Formal 
education is nice for proving you know how to take test and muddle 
through all the nonsense that colleges dish out, but the real issue 
here is if you can do the work (whatever that may be).

And, if you look at the "qualifications" posted on this list as being 
required, you'll see that it is very large net. Probably larger than 
any one person can master. One even required knowing windozes, so 
that fails the process for me.

I think it's probably pointless to try to get this group to agree on 
anything, let alone certification.

Cheers,

tedd (MSc., 1984) :-)
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From tedd at sperling.com  Thu Apr 24 11:03:20 2008
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:03:20 -0400
Subject: Spam: Re[2]: [nycphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP
	and 	the PHP+Developer
In-Reply-To: <1208981266.27052@coral.he.net>
References: <1208981266.27052@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240809c4365096c9f7@[192.168.1.101]>

At 1:07 PM -0700 4/23/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>Unfortunately, there are few geniuses in HR :)

Surprise, surprise.

But to their defense, they have nothing else to go on but what can be 
put to paper or provided by a test and therein lies the problem. They 
are hired to judge, but don't have the qualifications to do so.

Cheers,

tedd


-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Thu Apr 24 12:55:09 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:55:09 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
Message-ID: <1209056109.26208@coral.he.net>

Everyone -- thanks tons for your feedback so far.  We are contacting 
the host company today to get details on what our options are and I 
will let you know what we find out!

--Kristina

> mikesz at qualityadvantages.com wrote:
> > Forgot, I was using the mail.mysite.com and the IP address for same
> > with similar results and it worked beautifully until they blocked 
the
> > SMTP port on me.
> >
> > I have had mixed results with windows sendmail clones. Fake Sendmail
> > worked sometimes but crashed a lot so I stopped using it. Pear Mail
> > works beautifully and allows you to specify authentication settings 
so
> > you can log into your external mailserver
> >   
> As I said earlier, moving away from just "mail()" is usually a good 
idea.
> 
> phpmailer used to be what I'd use, until I found swiftmailer, which 
is 
> capable, nicely designed, and nicely implemented, and nicely 
documented.
> 
> the only downside to swiftmailer might be that newer releases are 
> php5-only.  But I think that at the moment, there are separate php4 
and 
> php5 libraries available.
> 
> -Tim
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From tgales at tgaconnect.com  Thu Apr 24 13:51:34 2008
From: tgales at tgaconnect.com (Tim Gales)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:51:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
In-Reply-To: <1208993331.32111@coral.he.net>
References: <1208993331.32111@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4810C8A6.9020505@tgaconnect.com>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Hi everyone --
>
> My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box (don't 
> ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() function and 
> the mail isn't cooperating.  
> [...]
> Thanks for any help...
>   
I got this to work once using IIS6 on WindowsXP Prof. which is a lot 
like Windows
Server 2003 (you didn't mention which version Windows you were trying 
this with)

I had the IIS server turned off and used the IIS Manager plugin to point 
the windows
mail server to a Linux mail server relay style. The Linux machine was on 
a private
network but with another public facing interface.

To test it you can
Open a window cmd box and start telnet (set localecho)
and 'open localhost 25'.

You enter 'helo' and get something like '250 10.10.x.x Hello [127.0.0.1]'
mail from:email at any.com   .                '250 2.1.0 
email at any.com....Sender OK'
rcpt to:valid at domain.com                   '250 2.1.5 valid at domain.com
DATA                                                '354 Start mail 
input; end with <CRLF>.<CRLF>'
test test test

.
250 2.6.0 <DESKqjTfLiCiW8St44v00000003 at 10.10.x.x> Queued mail for Delivery

I can mail you the settings for the properties (in the IIS Manager) if 
you want.

-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com



From paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 15:02:13 2008
From: paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk (PaulCheung)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:02:13 +0100
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
References: <1208993331.32111@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <003601c8a63d$b54f5430$0200a8c0@X9183>

Hi Kristina

I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember having to do 
some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for WINDOWS 
and PHP 5


<?php session_start; ob_start;
    ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
    ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
    ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);

   $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
   $subject  = "Enter your subject here";

   $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
                        I can put anything I like here";


   $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
   mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");

   echo "The email has been sent";
?>

Paul

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?


> Hi everyone --
>
> My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box (don't
> ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() function and
> the mail isn't cooperating.
>
> (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail
> Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>
> So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, or
> there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get this
> to work?)
>
> It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
> significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the site.
>
> Thanks for any help...
>
> --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the mail is
> not sending!)
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Thu Apr 24 15:16:55 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:16:55 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
Message-ID: <1209064615.10179@coral.he.net>

Hi Paul,

Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking through 
the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing 
PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what settings 
to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so on)...I'm 
assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?

Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?

--Kristina

> Hi Kristina
> 
> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember having 
to do 
> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for 
WINDOWS 
> and PHP 5
> 
> 
> <?php session_start; ob_start;
>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
> 
>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
> 
>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
>                         I can put anything I like here";
> 
> 
>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
> 
>    echo "The email has been sent";
> ?>
> 
> Paul
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
> 
> 
> > Hi everyone --
> >
> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
(don't
> > ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() function 
and
> > the mail isn't cooperating.
> >
> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail
> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
> >
> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, 
or
> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
this
> > to work?)
> >
> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the 
site.
> >
> > Thanks for any help...
> >
> > --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the mail 
is
> > not sending!)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:26:52 2008
From: paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk (PaulCheung)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:26:52 +0100
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
References: <1209064615.10179@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <005401c8a649$88765920$0200a8c0@X9183>

When I was having problems this is what was suggested to me.
============================================
If you are trying to send through localhost, then PHP expects to be able to 
connect to port 25 on localhost and talk SMTP to it to send the email.
If you are using your ISPs mail server to send the email, then I would test 
from the command-line by telnetting to port 25 if your ISPs mail server and 
trying to send an email via SMTP.
If you can't connect to port 25 then check for things like firewall settings 
or whatever "security" is running.

As for PHP 4, I am very sorry but I could not advise or help. This is how I 
use it, all the ini_set are correct  and required by windows, everything 
inside is correct too - except for port "25" - maybe.

The "smtp.kacomputerconsulting.com" tell Windows this is outgoing email and 
from where
The "smtp_port" tell windows from which port
The "sendmail_from" tells windows from whom

<?php session_start; ob_start;
ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.kacomputerconsulting.com");
ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
ini_set("sendmail_from", "ka at kacomputerconsulting.com");

$to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
$subject  = "Enter your subject here";

$message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
                     I can put anything I like here";

$from  = "FROM: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com";
mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");

echo "The email has been sent";
?>

try it, it should work.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?


> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking through
> the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing
> PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what settings
> to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so on)...I'm
> assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?
>
> Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?
>
> --Kristina
>
>> Hi Kristina
>>
>> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember having
> to do
>> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for
> WINDOWS
>> and PHP 5
>>
>>
>> <?php session_start; ob_start;
>>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
>>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
>>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
>>
>>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
>>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
>>
>>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
>>                         I can put anything I like here";
>>
>>
>>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
>>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
>>
>>    echo "The email has been sent";
>> ?>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
>> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
>> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
>>
>>
>> > Hi everyone --
>> >
>> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box
> (don't
>> > ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() function
> and
>> > the mail isn't cooperating.
>> >
>> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail
>> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>> >
>> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails,
> or
>> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get
> this
>> > to work?)
>> >
>> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
>> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the
> site.
>> >
>> > Thanks for any help...
>> >
>> > --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the mail
> is
>> > not sending!)
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
>> >
>> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 



From paul at devonianfarm.com  Thu Apr 24 16:40:13 2008
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (paul at devonianfarm.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
Message-ID: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>

    I've been coding in static languages for my day job for much of the last year,  but I'm still using PHP for my own projects.  I'm increasingly coming to appreciate dynamic object construction,  dynamic method calls and 'magic' methods in PHP.

    As much as I like symfony,  it feels like an invader from the Java universe.  When are we going to have a mature framework that ~feels~ like PHP?

    More: http://gen5.info/q/2008/04/24/embrace-dynamic-php/
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From netaustin at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 19:34:50 2008
From: netaustin at gmail.com (Austin Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:34:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
Message-ID: <68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>

You know, I feel much the same way about the Zend components... reference
implementations of important patterns, for sure, which I've enjoyed using on
Big Important Projects but they hurt my head to use, what with the
Zend_Package_Class_Subclass naming, the zillion page manual...

Generally, though, as a RoR/Symfony/Django/Zope/Drupal veteran, I'm tired of
these monolithic frameworks. If it needs a book, it's too much for me these
days. I love (usually) Drupal for what it is, but websites built in Drupal
are built _in_ Drupal, and the language happens to be PHP. Same with
Symfony. I think CodeIgniter feels fairly PHP-ish, but for something with
supposedly no learning curve, it's still a bit steep.

Further, I've long wanted to write a very simple set of flexible helper
functions for PHP newbies so they don't blow their brains out with things
like mysql_query("insert into blog_entries values(0, "{$_POST['title']}",
"{$_POST['body']}");

You know, provide simple active record, super simple controllers, no
configuration, lightweight templates, pack it into one file to include in a
single front controller, and forget about it. Plus a strong mission to avoid
bloat... and that's it. Everything else could be a plugin, including the
automatic admin architecture that was cool two years ago, but which I find
pretty useless these unless you really _are_ setting up a CD library
management system, the user management subsystem, blah blah blah.

Web.py, but for PHP, you know? And we could just use PHP for templating
anyways, so it'd be lighter and simpler still.

I may just build this.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:40 PM, <paul at devonianfarm.com> wrote:

>     I've been coding in static languages for my day job for much of the
> last year,  but I'm still using PHP for my own projects.  I'm increasingly
> coming to appreciate dynamic object construction,  dynamic method calls and
> 'magic' methods in PHP.
>
>     As much as I like symfony,  it feels like an invader from the Java
> universe.  When are we going to have a mature framework that ~feels~ like
> PHP?
>
>     More: http://gen5.info/q/2008/04/24/embrace-dynamic-php/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From tim_lists at o2group.com  Thu Apr 24 20:57:48 2008
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:57:48 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48112C8C.50102@o2group.com>

I've only played very little with the big CMS++ type systems like Drupal 
and Joomla.  Always seems to me that the learning curve is just too 
steep and it's too easy to get backed into a corner which means spending 
days doing it "right" or else you end up with some ugly hack.

I haven't played with symfony, but did take the time to play with 
CakePHP on a couple of biggish projects.  It's not so bad, though there 
is a learning curve.  The nice thing is that once you're done with the 
learning of various conventions, lots of things are very quick -- but 
you can still resort to isolated "hacks" (or really, just lower-level 
coding) to get things done.  The downside is that anything beyond simple 
one-table operations seems to be horribly inefficient, and I fear for 
the day that I have to try to optimize things.

For a while, I was using my own little system, which was an unholy 
marriage of PEAR's DB_DataObject (for activerecord stuff) and Smarty.  
It basically just extended DBDO with a render() method (for single 
records) and a renderList() function for recordsets. I've since decided 
that a non-PHP syntax for templates is just dumb -- so I don't use that 
anymore.  I might re-implement with PHP for templates and start using it 
again.  It can speed some things up.

Cake's main advantage is that it simplifies the simple cases for lots of 
UI stuff, which is usually a huge timesink.

Of course, once I got comfy with Cake, I started getting interested in 
what I can do on the front-end with extJS (http://www.extjs.com) -- 
maybe in a few months time I'll be fluent enough in both to have a good 
clean integration, which might be cool -- or might be completely 
unworkable... we'll see.  One of the big problems there is that by using 
something like Ext, you're throwing out all of the saved effort of using 
Cake's view helpers, etc.

Anyway, just my $.02 on the state of PHP frameworks (or at least those 
I've played with seriously).

-Tim






Austin Smith wrote:
> You know, I feel much the same way about the Zend components... 
> reference implementations of important patterns, for sure, which I've 
> enjoyed using on Big Important Projects but they hurt my head to use, 
> what with the Zend_Package_Class_Subclass naming, the zillion page 
> manual...
>
> Generally, though, as a RoR/Symfony/Django/Zope/Drupal veteran, I'm 
> tired of these monolithic frameworks. If it needs a book, it's too 
> much for me these days. I love (usually) Drupal for what it is, but 
> websites built in Drupal are built _in_ Drupal, and the language 
> happens to be PHP. Same with Symfony. I think CodeIgniter feels fairly 
> PHP-ish, but for something with supposedly no learning curve, it's 
> still a bit steep.
>
> Further, I've long wanted to write a very simple set of flexible 
> helper functions for PHP newbies so they don't blow their brains out 
> with things like mysql_query("insert into blog_entries values(0, 
> "{$_POST['title']}", "{$_POST['body']}");
>
> You know, provide simple active record, super simple controllers, no 
> configuration, lightweight templates, pack it into one file to include 
> in a single front controller, and forget about it. Plus a strong 
> mission to avoid bloat... and that's it. Everything else could be a 
> plugin, including the automatic admin architecture that was cool two 
> years ago, but which I find pretty useless these unless you really 
> _are_ setting up a CD library management system, the user management 
> subsystem, blah blah blah.
>
> Web.py, but for PHP, you know? And we could just use PHP for 
> templating anyways, so it'd be lighter and simpler still.
>
> I may just build this.
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:40 PM, <paul at devonianfarm.com 
> <mailto:paul at devonianfarm.com>> wrote:
>
>         I've been coding in static languages for my day job for much
>     of the last year,  but I'm still using PHP for my own projects. 
>     I'm increasingly coming to appreciate dynamic object
>     construction,  dynamic method calls and 'magic' methods in PHP.
>
>         As much as I like symfony,  it feels like an invader from the
>     Java universe.  When are we going to have a mature framework that
>     ~feels~ like PHP?
>
>         More: http://gen5.info/q/2008/04/24/embrace-dynamic-php/
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>     http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>     NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>     http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>     Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>     http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From nate at cakephp.org  Thu Apr 24 22:03:32 2008
From: nate at cakephp.org (Nate Abele)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:03:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <20080424233611.DFCED5081C@mail.cakephp.org>
References: <20080424233611.DFCED5081C@mail.cakephp.org>
Message-ID: <D89DD586-0156-4E42-B2DC-A161F8D9317F@cakephp.org>

> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
> From: paul at devonianfarm.com
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
> To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
>
>    I've been coding in static languages for my day job for much of  
> the last year,  but I'm still using PHP for my own projects.  I'm  
> increasingly coming to appreciate dynamic object construction,   
> dynamic method calls and 'magic' methods in PHP.
>
>    As much as I like symfony,  it feels like an invader from the  
> Java universe.  When are we going to have a mature framework that  
> ~feels~ like PHP?
>
>    More: http://gen5.info/q/2008/04/24/embrace-dynamic-php/

Enter CakePHP, stage left.  It is at this point far and away the most  
popular PHP framework:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=CakePHP%2C+Symfony%2C+Zend+Framework%2C+Code+Igniter&ctab=0&geo=all&date=ytd&sort=0

More: http://cake.insertdesignhere.com/posts/view/18



From hans at cyberxdesigns.com  Thu Apr 24 22:18:48 2008
From: hans at cyberxdesigns.com (Hans Kaspersetz)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:18:48 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48113F88.5050205@cyberxdesigns.com>


Austin Smith wrote:
> Further, I've long wanted to write a very simple set of flexible 
> helper functions for PHP newbies so they don't blow their brains out 
> with things like mysql_query("insert into blog_entries values(0, 
> "{$_POST['title']}", "{$_POST['body']}");
>
> You know, provide simple active record, super simple controllers, no 
> configuration, lightweight templates, pack it into one file to include 
> in a single front controller, and forget about it. Plus a strong 
> mission to avoid bloat... and that's it. Everything else could be a 
> plugin, including the automatic admin architecture that was cool two 
> years ago, but which I find pretty useless these unless you really 
> _are_ setting up a CD library management system, the user management 
> subsystem, blah blah blah.
>
>

You must know this is where all frameworks and monolithic systems are 
born.  The seed is the desire to solve some problem, like db 
connectivity and front end controller.  And before you know it, you have 
had to extend it to cover the edge cases and other need.  And one day 
you open your eyes and see the beast staring at you.

Hans K


From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Fri Apr 25 03:30:36 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:30:36 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
In-Reply-To: <1209064615.10179@coral.he.net>
References: <1209064615.10179@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1122206734.20080425153036@qualityadvantages.com>

Hello Kristina,

Friday, April 25, 2008, 3:16:55 AM, you wrote:

> Hi Paul,

> Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking through
> the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing 
> PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what settings
> to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so on)...I'm 
> assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?

> Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?

> --Kristina

>> Hi Kristina
>> 
>> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember having 
> to do 
>> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for 
> WINDOWS 
>> and PHP 5
>> 
>> 
>> <?php session_start; ob_start;
>>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
>>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
>>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
>> 
>>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
>>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
>> 
>>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
>>                         I can put anything I like here";
>> 
>> 
>>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
>>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
>> 
>>    echo "The email has been sent";
>> ?>
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
>> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
>> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
>> 
>> 
>> > Hi everyone --
>> >
>> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
> (don't
>> > ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() function 
> and
>> > the mail isn't cooperating.
>> >
>> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail
>> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>> >
>> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails, 
> or
>> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
> this
>> > to work?)
>> >
>> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
>> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the 
> site.
>> >
>> > Thanks for any help...
>> >
>> > --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the mail 
> is
>> > not sending!)
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
>> >
>> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>> 
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>> 
>> 

> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com

> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

> __________ NOD32 3053 (20080424) Information __________

> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com


php.ini is probably in the WINDOWS folders or the equivalent on your
server as is my.ini as I remember.

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Apr 25 04:02:45 2008
From: paulcheung at tiscali.co.uk (PaulCheung)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:02:45 +0100
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
References: <1209064615.10179@coral.he.net>
	<1122206734.20080425153036@qualityadvantages.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c8a6aa$bee44060$0200a8c0@X9183>

My PHP.INI is sitting in the root directory. Search using "mail" and 
hopefully it will be of some help. It might be prudent before you alter your 
PHP.INI to make a backup.

Paul
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <mikesz at qualityadvantages.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 8:30 AM
Subject: Re[2]: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?


> Hello Kristina,
>
> Friday, April 25, 2008, 3:16:55 AM, you wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul,
>
>> Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking through
>> the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing
>> PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what settings
>> to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so on)...I'm
>> assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?
>
>> Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?
>
>> --Kristina
>
>>> Hi Kristina
>>>
>>> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember having
>> to do
>>> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for
>> WINDOWS
>>> and PHP 5
>>>
>>>
>>> <?php session_start; ob_start;
>>>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
>>>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
>>>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
>>>
>>>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
>>>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
>>>
>>>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
>>>                         I can put anything I like here";
>>>
>>>
>>>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
>>>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
>>>
>>>    echo "The email has been sent";
>>> ?>
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
>>> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
>>> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hi everyone --
>>> >
>>> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box
>> (don't
>>> > ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() function
>> and
>>> > the mail isn't cooperating.
>>> >
>>> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal Sendmail
>>> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>>> >
>>> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the mails,
>> or
>>> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get
>> this
>>> > to work?)
>>> >
>>> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
>>> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on the
>> site.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for any help...
>>> >
>>> > --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the mail
>> is
>>> > not sending!)
>>> >
>> __________ NOD32 3053 (20080424) Information __________
>
>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> php.ini is probably in the WINDOWS folders or the equivalent on your
> server as is my.ini as I remember.
>
> -- 
> Best regards,
> mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com 



From urb at e-government.com  Fri Apr 25 08:35:31 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:35:31 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <D89DD586-0156-4E42-B2DC-A161F8D9317F@cakephp.org>
References: <20080424233611.DFCED5081C@mail.cakephp.org>
	<D89DD586-0156-4E42-B2DC-A161F8D9317F@cakephp.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080425083456.02bf2cb8@e-government.com>


>>increasingly coming to appreciate dynamic object construction,
>>dynamic method calls and 'magic' methods in PHP.

         What is a "magic" method?


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Fri Apr 25 08:49:17 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:49:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 07:34:50PM -0400, Austin Smith wrote:

> Further, I've long wanted to write a very simple set of flexible helper
> functions for PHP newbies so they don't blow their brains out with things
> like mysql_query("insert into blog_entries values(0, "{$_POST['title']}",
> "{$_POST['body']}");

Fortunately, you haven't done so yet and thereby introduce the world to 
another SQL Injection attack and path disclosure vulnerability. :)  You 
have to escape input into the query and ensure $_POST variables actually 
exist before using them to avoid PHP notices.

Of course, you can say you were just posting short hand.  But you were 
being pretty specific in your example.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Fri Apr 25 08:50:50 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:50:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080425083456.02bf2cb8@e-government.com>
References: <20080424233611.DFCED5081C@mail.cakephp.org>
	<D89DD586-0156-4E42-B2DC-A161F8D9317F@cakephp.org>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080425083456.02bf2cb8@e-government.com>
Message-ID: <20080425125050.GB15054@panix.com>

Hi Urb

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:35:31AM -0400, Urb LeJeune wrote:
>         What is a "magic" method?

http://php.net/oop5.overloading.  Manual page written by moi. :)

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From chsnyder at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 08:55:19 2008
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:55:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
Message-ID: <b76252690804250555h7361d1c9uf0ea9d975bcb4a3a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:40 PM,  <paul at devonianfarm.com> wrote:
>     I've been coding in static languages for my day job for much of the last
> year,  but I'm still using PHP for my own projects.  I'm increasingly coming
> to appreciate dynamic object construction,  dynamic method calls and 'magic'
> methods in PHP.
>
>     As much as I like symfony,  it feels like an invader from the Java
> universe.  When are we going to have a mature framework that ~feels~ like
> PHP?
>
>     More: http://gen5.info/q/2008/04/24/embrace-dynamic-php/


The best way to get the framework you want is to build your own. The
downside is that maturity takes time and application across many
related projects to achieve, but the upside is that you have a
platform that works the way you do.

I love how this thread follows hard on the heels of the "must
standardize on Zend!" mini-conference, so obviously this advice isn't
for everyone. But if you feel constrained by what you have used in the
past, take a few weeks to whip up something new.

-- 
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 09:06:54 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:06:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804250606h7f9c196ay7d290c7a2cab4c17@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Convissor
<danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 07:34:50PM -0400, Austin Smith wrote:
>
>  > Further, I've long wanted to write a very simple set of flexible helper
>  > functions for PHP newbies so they don't blow their brains out with things
>  > like mysql_query("insert into blog_entries values(0, "{$_POST['title']}",
>  > "{$_POST['body']}");
>
>  Fortunately, you haven't done so yet and thereby introduce the world to
>  another SQL Injection attack and path disclosure vulnerability. :)  You
>  have to escape input into the query and ensure $_POST variables actually
>  exist before using them to avoid PHP notices.
>
>  Of course, you can say you were just posting short hand.  But you were
>  being pretty specific in your example.
>
>  --Dan

Not necessarily true, secure string interpolation is coming soon:

http://google-caja.googlecode.com/svn/changes/mikesamuel/string-interpolation-29-Jan-2008/trunk/src/js/com/google/caja/interp/index.html

- jake


From urb at e-government.com  Fri Apr 25 09:13:04 2008
From: urb at e-government.com (Urb LeJeune)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:13:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080425090147.02bf2cb8@e-government.com>


>Further, I've long wanted to write a very simple set of flexible 
>helper functions for PHP newbies so they don't blow their brains out 
>with things like mysql_query("insert into blog_entries values(0, 
>"{$_POST['title']}", "{$_POST['body']}");

         I've written a DB abstraction layer in which everything is 
hash array based. The insert it method
header is:

   InsertNewRow($HTML,$_POST,$NewKey,$Table);

where $HTML is an error or progress message. There are several assumptions:

The first field in a table is named ID and is an auto-increment fields.

$_POST elements have a key that is the same as a table field name. 
$_POST[FirstName]
would map to a field named FirstName in the specified table.

There CAN be $_POST elements that do not map to any table field.

The update function header is:

   UpdateRow($HTML,$_POST,$Table,$KeyName);

$KeyName is the field name, almost always ID in my case, and must by 
undefined in
the $_POST array.

Another workhorse is:

   ExecuteQuery($HTML,$Select,$Result,$Count);

Where the $Select variables contains the desired action such as

$Select = "SELECT * FROM Messages WHERE ID = \"12345\"';

         This is then processed with:

   while($Row=mysql_fetch_assoc($Result)) {
     extract($Row);
     action code
   } # End of while($Row=mysql_fetch_assoc($Result))

         The class also has a bunch of handy methods.

         I didn't write it to make it easy for a newbe but to make it 
easy for me :-)


Urb

Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
E-Government.com
609-294-0320  800-204-9545
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations.




From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Fri Apr 25 09:37:47 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:37:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610804250606h7f9c196ay7d290c7a2cab4c17@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>
	<e065b8610804250606h7f9c196ay7d290c7a2cab4c17@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080425133747.GA29785@panix.com>

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 09:06:54AM -0400, Jake McGraw wrote:
> 
> Not necessarily true, secure string interpolation is coming soon:
> 
> http://google-caja.googlecode.com/svn/changes/mikesamuel/string-interpolation-29-Jan-2008/trunk/src/js/com/google/caja/interp/index.html

Yuck.  Such tactics are a cop out for doing the job right in the first 
place.  It adds significant overhead.  It's just another set of functions 
ot achieve security, which if not used, will leave people in the same 
place anyway.  Let alone, that paritcular project is just for JavaScirpt.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From david at davidmintz.org  Fri Apr 25 10:07:46 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:07:46 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>

Flame me for starting this, I know it might get religious. But:  an
organization of which I am a member is evaluating proposals to rebuild its
website. One of those proposals is from some folks who apparently are
partial to ColdFusion. All I know about CF is what I just picked up from
skimming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColdFusion. Recognizing my bias
towards languages that I speak, I try to keep an open mind. I am interested
in hearing what you guys think about CF. I know I can expect a PHPish bias
in this forum but I also know there are a lot of independent-minded,
non-dogmatic, clear-headed, breath-takingly wise and knowledgeable... have I
flattered you enough yet?

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Apr 25 10:34:11 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:34:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804251028210.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Austin Smith wrote:

> You know, provide simple active record, super simple controllers, no
> configuration, lightweight templates, pack it into one file to include in a
> single front controller, and forget about it.

Something super light like Camping?
http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/camping


-- 
Aj.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Apr 25 10:36:06 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:36:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <48113F88.5050205@cyberxdesigns.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804251035390.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Hans Kaspersetz wrote:

> You must know this is where all frameworks and monolithic systems are 
> born.  The seed is the desire to solve some problem, like db 
> connectivity and front end controller.  And before you know it, you have 
> had to extend it to cover the edge cases and other need.  And one day 
> you open your eyes and see the beast staring at you.

I was thinking of a good way to put it but this just about says it all 
AFAIK.


-- 
Aj.



From sequethin at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 10:39:57 2008
From: sequethin at gmail.com (Michael Hernandez)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:39:57 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6252A20A-9F6D-4D08-A69B-7F1E6E2643E7@gmail.com>


On Apr 25, 2008, at 10:07 AM, David Mintz wrote:

> Flame me for starting this, I know it might get religious. But:  an  
> organization of which I am a member is evaluating proposals to  
> rebuild its website. One of those proposals is from some folks who  
> apparently are partial to ColdFusion. All I know about CF is what I  
> just picked up from skimming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
> ColdFusion. Recognizing my bias towards languages that I speak, I  
> try to keep an open mind. I am interested in hearing what you guys  
> think about CF. I know I can expect a PHPish bias in this forum but  
> I also know there are a lot of independent-minded, non-dogmatic,  
> clear-headed, breath-takingly wise and knowledgeable... have I  
> flattered you enough yet?
>
> -- 

The only reason I could see for using coldfusion is that you have a  
site already written in it and you don't want to rewrite the whole  
thing in PHP. Maybe if the only other developers on staff only knew  
coldfusion? That might also be a good case. Other than that I don't  
see any advantages.

--Mike H
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From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 10:46:33 2008
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:46:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <20080425133747.GA29785@panix.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>
	<e065b8610804250606h7f9c196ay7d290c7a2cab4c17@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080425133747.GA29785@panix.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610804250746r19b3355ctda041c0eb804c3c3@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Daniel Convissor
<danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 09:06:54AM -0400, Jake McGraw wrote:
>  >
>  > Not necessarily true, secure string interpolation is coming soon:
>  >
>  > http://google-caja.googlecode.com/svn/changes/mikesamuel/string-interpolation-29-Jan-2008/trunk/src/js/com/google/caja/interp/index.html
>
>  Yuck.  Such tactics are a cop out for doing the job right in the first
>  place.  It adds significant overhead.  It's just another set of functions
>  ot achieve security, which if not used, will leave people in the same
>  place anyway.  Let alone, that paritcular project is just for JavaScirpt.

Ah, well, I respectfully disagree.

>   Let alone, that paritcular project is just for JavaScirpt.

Though this project is specifically for JavaScript, the fundamentals
can be applied to PHP.

>  Yuck.  Such tactics are a cop out for doing the job right in the first
>  place.

There are simply too many vectors  for attack when developing a PHP
application, start thinking about a typical mash up application, where
you take in user input, store some information on your DB, contact
another web application, maybe run a UNIX command and then deliver the
whole thing. Input from the user, another web application, your own
database and any static files on your server has to be checked for all
of the following injections: SQL, HTML, JS, CSS, XML/JSON (third party
web application), CL. All of these vectors have to be checked for at
different processing times in your application, and each has a
different method for escaping nasty input.

Caja aims to take the guess work out this situation by automatically
detecting what kind (SQL query, CSS definition, etc) of string your
creating and correctly escaping or removing any suspect strings. As
far as "getting the job done right", what if the job changes? What if
a new vector of attack is introduced when some junior developer starts
using data from a third party resource in a way your system doesn't
account for?

> It adds significant overhead.

Well, we won't know that until a version for PHP is published, but, I
found the results the Caja team got for JS to be pretty encouraging.

> It's just another set of functions
>  ot achieve security, which if not used, will leave people in the same
>  place anyway.

The whole point of this endeavor is that we already have too many
security functions to account for, each with an unmaintainable
structure CleanX(StringWithMarkers, ValuesToReplaceMarkers):

CleanQuery(), CleanCommandLine(), CleanHTML(), CleanHTMLAttr(),
CleanJavascript(), CleanCSSDef(), CleanCSSAttr(), etc etc etc

Instead imagine:

Clean(String);

I don't know about you, but I prefer the latter.

- jake

Clean(String)


From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Apr 25 10:46:44 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <D89DD586-0156-4E42-B2DC-A161F8D9317F@cakephp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804251042000.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Nate Abele wrote:

> Enter CakePHP, stage left.  It is at this point far and away the most  
> popular PHP framework:
> 
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=CakePHP%2C+Symfony%2C+Zend+Framework%2C+Code+Igniter&ctab=0&geo=all&date=ytd&sort=0

So, the number of searches for a product is directly proportional to the 
popularity of that product?



-- 
Aj.



From alex at pilgrimstudio.com  Fri Apr 25 12:34:31 2008
From: alex at pilgrimstudio.com (Alex Natskovich)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:34:31 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] shipping price calculation
Message-ID: <48120817.4070203@pilgrimstudio.com>

Hello all ;)

I am building some custom software and one of its modules will need to 
calculate shipping price given the shipping method, weight, possibley 
size and zip codes. Now, I've found a handy Perl modules in CPAN 
(Bussiness::Shipping) that pretty much cover that thing for UPS, USPS 
and FedEx. However, there is nothing for DHL, and I will need that as well.

So, the question is, does anyone know how similar things could be 
implemented in PHP? Are there modules around that do that already?
If, not would building that thing in Perl and exposing it via SOAP would 
be a good idea? Application is pretty big and potentially will require 
to perform well given a solid load... and I am not quite sure SOAP-thing 
would be able to accommodate it?

Best regards, Alex



From dan.horning at planetnoc.com  Fri Apr 25 13:08:33 2008
From: dan.horning at planetnoc.com (Dan Horning)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:08:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] shipping price calculation
In-Reply-To: <09F34E49EBB14F5DBB931BEEFF2A5E98@PlanetNOC.local>
References: <09F34E49EBB14F5DBB931BEEFF2A5E98@PlanetNOC.local>
Message-ID: <48121011.9090300@planetnoc.com>

http://www.phpclasses.org/browse/package/2922.html

this one should cover most of it
http://www.dhl-usa.com/TechTools/detail/TTDetail.asp?nav=TechnologyTools/Tracking/TrackIT

my personal suggestion is to call up dHL and ask if there is any other 
options as well as they may have a full api available for you to download

Dan Horning

American Digital Services - Where you are only limited by imagination.
direct 1-866-493-4218 . main 1-800-863-3854 . fax 1-888-474-6133
dan.horning at planetnoc.com
http://www.americandigitalservices.com



Alex Natskovich wrote:
> Hello all ;)
>
> I am building some custom software and one of its modules will need to 
> calculate shipping price given the shipping method, weight, possibley 
> size and zip codes. Now, I've found a handy Perl modules in CPAN 
> (Bussiness::Shipping) that pretty much cover that thing for UPS, USPS 
> and FedEx. However, there is nothing for DHL, and I will need that as 
> well.
>
> So, the question is, does anyone know how similar things could be 
> implemented in PHP? Are there modules around that do that already?
> If, not would building that thing in Perl and exposing it via SOAP 
> would be a good idea? Application is pretty big and potentially will 
> require to perform well given a solid load... and I am not quite sure 
> SOAP-thing would be able to accommodate it?
>
> Best regards, Alex
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>


From nate at cakephp.org  Fri Apr 25 13:18:45 2008
From: nate at cakephp.org (Nate Abele)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:18:45 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Re: Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <20080425160020.947985082A@mail.cakephp.org>
References: <20080425160020.947985082A@mail.cakephp.org>
Message-ID: <275F65E7-587F-4D31-9F9A-2C2EC76B0688@cakephp.org>

> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Re: Embrace Dynamic PHP
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804251042000.28744-100000 at bitblit.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Nate Abele wrote:
>
>> Enter CakePHP, stage left.  It is at this point far and away the most
>> popular PHP framework:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/trends?q=CakePHP%2C+Symfony%2C+Zend+Framework%2C+Code+Igniter&ctab=0&geo=all&date=ytd&sort=0
>
> So, the number of searches for a product is directly proportional to  
> the
> popularity of that product?
>
> -- 
> Aj.

No, that's simply one way to measure.  You could also go by our number  
of downloads (624,000 since May '06), or the size of our community  
(8,300 on the mailing list and avg. 175 on IRC) which is almost double  
that of Symfony's, and several times that of CodeIgniter's, or the  
fact that we consistently chart significantly higher than both on  
Technorati.  That's about all the metrics I could come up with in a  
few minutes, but I'm sure there are others I'm overlooking.

- Nate


From lists at enobrev.com  Fri Apr 25 13:24:06 2008
From: lists at enobrev.com (Mark Armendariz)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:24:06 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <481213B6.9030601@enobrev.com>

David Mintz wrote:
> Flame me for starting this, I know it might get religious. But:  an 
> organization of which I am a member is evaluating proposals to rebuild 
> its website. One of those proposals is from some folks who apparently 
> are partial to ColdFusion. All I know about CF is what I just picked 
> up from skimming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColdFusion. Recognizing 
> my bias towards languages that I speak, I try to keep an open mind. I 
> am interested in hearing what you guys think about CF. I know I can 
> expect a PHPish bias in this forum but I also know there are a lot of 
> independent-minded, non-dogmatic, clear-headed, breath-takingly wise 
> and knowledgeable... have I flattered you enough yet?
>
I worked in CF for a couple years before moving to PHP.  This was around 
version 5 (it's been about 7 years).

CF was quick to learn and allowed me to get the job done.  The language 
provided plenty of built-in goodies including database connections, ftp 
and scheduling.  Anything that wasn't built in could be added using cfx 
tags and cfscript.  My biggest issue back then was the inevitable "tag 
soup".  Tag Monsoon might be more appropriate.  Also, most libraries - 
and even tutorial sites - cost $$ (akin to ASP) - at least back then, 
which was a no-no for the just-starting-out full time web developer that 
I'd been at the time. 

To its credit, as a local network manager for an international financial 
software company downtown, I bought a CF book for $20 from a street 
vendor and changed the entire company's support / service branch for the 
better by providing an intranet based on their orginal access database 
which they (ahem *I*) used to ftp from/to 5 offices internationally 
every Friday. That was after about 3-5 weeks with that book and a copy 
of homesite (now dreamweaver).  I spent about a year with that app 
thereafter and it became incredibly difficult to maintain because of the 
tag soup I mentioned above, but to start - and to learn, quick and easy.

I'm sure it's become a different beast since the move to the Java code 
base.  But if they're still all about the tags, I'd recommend against.

After I left that job, I moved to PHP and rarely, if ever, looked back.  
Happily.

Good luck!

Mark


From consult at covenantedesign.com  Fri Apr 25 14:00:58 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:00:58 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48121C5A.5050409@covenantedesign.com>


Dave,

I work with Coldfusion day-in and day-out. It is a fantastic language 
that can get a lot of things done quickly. It's powerful, versatile and 
has an easy-enough learning curve. Don't listen to anyone who just says 
'PHP is better', or, 'If you're starting from scratch, start with PHP', 
any evaluation to that degree is coming from someone who has little to 
no experience with C vs. Java. (Yes originally CF was written in C, but 
in much wisdom they moved to Java).

I am very well versed in CF and would be more than happy to answer any 
of your questions off list David.

-Ed
Me at EdwardPrevost.info


> Flame me for starting this, I know it might get religious. But:  an 
> organization of which I am a member is evaluating proposals to rebuild 
> its website. One of those proposals is from some folks who apparently 
> are partial to ColdFusion. All I know about CF is what I just picked 
> up from skimming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColdFusion. Recognizing 
> my bias towards languages that I speak, I try to keep an open mind. I 
> am interested in hearing what you guys think about CF. I know I can 
> expect a PHPish bias in this forum but I also know there are a lot of 
> independent-minded, non-dogmatic, clear-headed, breath-takingly wise 
> and knowledgeable... have I flattered you enough yet?
>
> -- 
> David Mintz
> http://davidmintz.org/
>



From david at davidmintz.org  Fri Apr 25 15:03:03 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:03:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <6252A20A-9F6D-4D08-A69B-7F1E6E2643E7@gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6252A20A-9F6D-4D08-A69B-7F1E6E2643E7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804251203i3cd5b0bbr4bae8965f476dfb5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Michael Hernandez <sequethin at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Apr 25, 2008, at 10:07 AM, David Mintz wrote:
>
> Flame me for starting this, I know it might get religious. But:  an
> organization of which I am a member is evaluating proposals to rebuild its
> website. One of those proposals is from some folks who apparently are
> partial to ColdFusion. All I know about CF is what I just picked up from
> skimming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColdFusion. Recognizing my bias
> towards languages that I speak, I try to keep an open mind. I am interested
> in hearing what you guys think about CF. I know I can expect a PHPish bias
> in this forum but I also know there are a lot of independent-minded,
> non-dogmatic, clear-headed, breath-takingly wise and knowledgeable... have I
> flattered you enough yet?
>
> --
>
>
> The only reason I could see for using coldfusion is that you have a site
> already written in it and you don't want to rewrite the whole thing in PHP.
> Maybe if the only other developers on staff only knew coldfusion? That might
> also be a good case. Other than that I don't see any advantages.
>
>
I take it you don't see any disadvantages, then?

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From david at davidmintz.org  Fri Apr 25 15:12:08 2008
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:12:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <48121C5A.5050409@covenantedesign.com>
References: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
	<48121C5A.5050409@covenantedesign.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50804251212n3dff64ffg355e4f75f89d736@mail.gmail.com>

How about the non-free closed-sourcedness, or is it? I prefer something I
can download and run on my own pc if I please --  IOW I'd like to be able to
run a replica of the live CF site without paying anyone any money. The
article on wikipedia said you could "theoretically" run your CF app with an
app server like Tomcat. With something like MySQL/PHP you can way more than
"theoretically" run a copy of your production site on your own box, both
technically and legally.

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Webmaster <consult at covenantedesign.com>
wrote:

>
> Dave,
>
> I work with Coldfusion day-in and day-out. It is a fantastic language that
> can get a lot of things done quickly. It's powerful, versatile and has an
> easy-enough learning curve. Don't listen to anyone who just says 'PHP is
> better', or, 'If you're starting from scratch, start with PHP', any
> evaluation to that degree is coming from someone who has little to no
> experience with C vs. Java. (Yes originally CF was written in C, but in much
> wisdom they moved to Java).
>
> I am very well versed in CF and would be more than happy to answer any of
> your questions off list David.
>
> -Ed
> Me at EdwardPrevost.info
>
>
>  Flame me for starting this, I know it might get religious. But:  an
>> organization of which I am a member is evaluating proposals to rebuild its
>> website. One of those proposals is from some folks who apparently are
>> partial to ColdFusion. All I know about CF is what I just picked up from
>> skimming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColdFusion. Recognizing my bias
>> towards languages that I speak, I try to keep an open mind. I am interested
>> in hearing what you guys think about CF. I know I can expect a PHPish bias
>> in this forum but I also know there are a lot of independent-minded,
>> non-dogmatic, clear-headed, breath-takingly wise and knowledgeable... have I
>> flattered you enough yet?
>>
>> --
>> David Mintz
>> http://davidmintz.org/
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Apr 25 15:22:11 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:22:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804251203i3cd5b0bbr4bae8965f476dfb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804251511540.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, David Mintz wrote:

> I take it you don't see any disadvantages, then?

I too worked with CF and ASP years ago - also moved on to PHP and other 
open source technologies. (Yes, and Im never going back either).

Suprised noone has mentioned that hosting CF apps requires a Java 
application server (and all of the deployment complexities that that can 
entail).



-- 
Aj.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Apr 25 15:24:51 2008
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:24:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804251212n3dff64ffg355e4f75f89d736@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0804251522240.28744-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, David Mintz wrote:

> How about the non-free closed-sourcedness, or is it? I prefer something I
> can download and run on my own pc if I please --  IOW I'd like to be able to
> run a replica of the live CF site without paying anyone any money.

There's a free "developer" edition:
http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/editions/#s3


-- 
Aj.



From consult at covenantedesign.com  Fri Apr 25 15:52:37 2008
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (Webmaster)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:52:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804251203i3cd5b0bbr4bae8965f476dfb5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>	<6252A20A-9F6D-4D08-A69B-7F1E6E2643E7@gmail.com>
	<721f1cc50804251203i3cd5b0bbr4bae8965f476dfb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48123685.7010709@covenantedesign.com>



David,

Technically no. I've found it well summarized like this, Coldfusion is a 
developers tool, when used as Coldfusion, but when used as Java, it's an 
engineer's tool. Although I also say, Coldfusion is for Developers and 
PHP is for programmers. =D

In some sense I would see benefits, one being that you can customize the 
actual core by deploying your own Java.
Blue dragon is what I usually recommend for those who are shy to the 
high price tag of CF.

(And it would be JRun, Because Tomcat won't do the trick  =P)

-Ed





David Mintz wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Michael Hernandez 
> <sequethin at gmail.com <mailto:sequethin at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     On Apr 25, 2008, at 10:07 AM, David Mintz wrote:
>
>>     Flame me for starting this, I know it might get religious. But: 
>>     an organization of which I am a member is evaluating proposals to
>>     rebuild its website. One of those proposals is from some folks
>>     who apparently are partial to ColdFusion. All I know about CF is
>>     what I just picked up from skimming
>>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColdFusion. Recognizing my bias
>>     towards languages that I speak, I try to keep an open mind. I am
>>     interested in hearing what you guys think about CF. I know I can
>>     expect a PHPish bias in this forum but I also know there are a
>>     lot of independent-minded, non-dogmatic, clear-headed,
>>     breath-takingly wise and knowledgeable... have I flattered you
>>     enough yet?
>>
>>     -- 
>
>     The only reason I could see for using coldfusion is that you have
>     a site already written in it and you don't want to rewrite the
>     whole thing in PHP. Maybe if the only other developers on staff
>     only knew coldfusion? That might also be a good case. Other than
>     that I don't see any advantages.
>
>
> I take it you don't see any disadvantages, then?
>
> -- 
> David Mintz
> http://davidmintz.org/
>
> The subtle source is clear and bright
> The tributary streams flow through the darkness
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From chsnyder at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 16:38:45 2008
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:38:45 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ColdFusion vs PHP (Ruby, Perl....)
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50804251212n3dff64ffg355e4f75f89d736@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50804250707h347dc48ct27afd74982530cf0@mail.gmail.com>
	<48121C5A.5050409@covenantedesign.com>
	<721f1cc50804251212n3dff64ffg355e4f75f89d736@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690804251338u5bdd7e25y20218c191847674a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:12 PM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:
> How about the non-free closed-sourcedness, or is it?

That sums it up for me. The first web application I ever built was an
online poll using Cold Fusion circa 1998. The production company I was
working for was too cheap to shell out for the server, and in
researching alternatives I found php.

The price was right of course, but it you could also do so much more
with it because of access to all these free C libraries. The code
reuse benefit of open source was pretty clear.

-- 
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From netaustin at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 17:27:58 2008
From: netaustin at gmail.com (Austin Smith)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:27:58 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>
Message-ID: <68a246880804251427o7dd2c0ew1df840c7f52c7abb@mail.gmail.com>

I thought I was pretty clear, that query was an example of what many newbies
do, not what I would do (... so they don't blow their brains out with things
like ...) exposing a vulnerability and almost certainly exposing themselves
to copy-paste repetition. It certainly wasn't shorthand, and I've seen it a
thousand times.

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Convissor <
danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 07:34:50PM -0400, Austin Smith wrote:
>
> > Further, I've long wanted to write a very simple set of flexible helper
> > functions for PHP newbies so they don't blow their brains out with things
> > like mysql_query("insert into blog_entries values(0, "{$_POST['title']}",
> > "{$_POST['body']}");
>
> Fortunately, you haven't done so yet and thereby introduce the world to
> another SQL Injection attack and path disclosure vulnerability. :)  You
> have to escape input into the query and ensure $_POST variables actually
> exist before using them to avoid PHP notices.
>
> Of course, you can say you were just posting short hand.  But you were
> being pretty specific in your example.
>
> --Dan
>
> --
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>            data intensive web and database programming
>                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
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From chsnyder at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 17:44:36 2008
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:44:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <68a246880804251427o7dd2c0ew1df840c7f52c7abb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>
	<68a246880804251427o7dd2c0ew1df840c7f52c7abb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690804251444r2b9304a3yd46ddf2f64b27700@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Austin Smith <netaustin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought I was pretty clear, that query was an example of what many newbies
> do, not what I would do (... so they don't blow their brains out with things
> like ...) exposing a vulnerability and almost certainly exposing themselves
> to copy-paste repetition. It certainly wasn't shorthand, and I've seen it a
> thousand times.

I think we're all a little sensitive about jumping on posts that
illustrate worst-practices because there's the perception that newbie
developers will pick them up as they trawl the archives. They must be
getting these crazy ideas from somewhere, right?

Hopefully anyone reading this list has seen "filter input, escape
output" enough times to know that "{$_POST['title']}" is just _wrong_
no matter where it appears.

Maybe next time just annotate it with an <--anti-pattern note...

-- 
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From anthony at thrillist.com  Fri Apr 25 17:57:47 2008
From: anthony at thrillist.com (anthony wlodarski)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:57:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <b76252690804251444r2b9304a3yd46ddf2f64b27700@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>	<20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>	<68a246880804251427o7dd2c0ew1df840c7f52c7abb@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690804251444r2b9304a3yd46ddf2f64b27700@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <481253DB.2060902@thrillist.com>

I <3 mysql_real_escape_string()
-- 
Anthony Wlodarski
PHP/MySQL Developer
www.thrillist.com
560 Broadway, Suite 308
New York, NY 10012
p 646.274.2435
f 646.557.0803



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Fri Apr 25 19:28:47 2008
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:28:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Embrace Dynamic PHP
In-Reply-To: <68a246880804251427o7dd2c0ew1df840c7f52c7abb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57941.192.168.1.35.1209069613.webmail@192.168.1.35>
	<68a246880804241634k4d1efa58n62f1b324c6316727@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080425124917.GA15054@panix.com>
	<68a246880804251427o7dd2c0ew1df840c7f52c7abb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080425232847.GA12668@panix.com>

Hey Austin:

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 05:27:58PM -0400, Austin Smith wrote:
> I thought I was pretty clear, that query was an example of what many newbies
> do, not what I would do

Oh. :)  I read "blow their brains out" as "spend hours trying to figure 
out."

Pardon,

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 26 11:11:22 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:11:22 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
Message-ID: <1209222682.13660@coral.he.net>

Mike -- apparently there isn't one automatically created for the 
account and I've been instructed to create one myself.  I also 
uncovered some other settings that are required for the file upload 
which need to be set, such as upload_tmp_dir ... this should be a fun 
weekend.

The thing that confuses me is that the documentation says that PHP will 
first look for the ini file in the directory where the PHP script is 
being called, and THEN look for it in the root directory.  Does this 
mean that I can have more than one ini file in my application...or?

I think the best place to have it would be in the root directory where 
it can be accessed by any scripts...


> Hello Kristina,
> 
> Friday, April 25, 2008, 3:16:55 AM, you wrote:
> 
> > Hi Paul,
> 
> > Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking 
through
> > the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing 
> > PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what 
settings
> > to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so 
on)...I'm 
> > assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?
> 
> > Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?
> 
> > --Kristina
> 
> >> Hi Kristina
> >> 
> >> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember 
having 
> > to do 
> >> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for 
> > WINDOWS 
> >> and PHP 5
> >> 
> >> 
> >> <?php session_start; ob_start;
> >>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
> >>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
> >>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
> >> 
> >>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
> >>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
> >> 
> >>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
> >>                         I can put anything I like here";
> >> 
> >> 
> >>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
> >>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
> >> 
> >>    echo "The email has been sent";
> >> ?>
> >> 
> >> Paul
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> >> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
> >> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > Hi everyone --
> >> >
> >> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
> > (don't
> >> > ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() 
function 
> > and
> >> > the mail isn't cooperating.
> >> >
> >> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal 
Sendmail
> >> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
> >> >
> >> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the 
mails, 
> > or
> >> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
> > this
> >> > to work?)
> >> >
> >> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
> >> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on 
the 
> > site.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for any help...
> >> >
> >> > --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the 
mail 
> > is
> >> > not sending!)
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> >
> >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >> >
> >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> 
> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >> 
> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >> 
> >> 
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> > __________ NOD32 3053 (20080424) Information __________
> 
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> > http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> php.ini is probably in the WINDOWS folders or the equivalent on your
> server as is my.ini as I remember.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 26 11:12:48 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:12:48 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
Message-ID: <1209222768.13985@coral.he.net>

Yep the root directory is the way to go here...that's where I'm going 
to try putting it.  Will keep everyone posted.

--Kristina

> My PHP.INI is sitting in the root directory. Search using "mail" and 
> hopefully it will be of some help. It might be prudent before you 
alter your 
> PHP.INI to make a backup.
> 
> Paul
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <mikesz at qualityadvantages.com>
> To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 8:30 AM
> Subject: Re[2]: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows 
server?
> 
> 
> > Hello Kristina,
> >
> > Friday, April 25, 2008, 3:16:55 AM, you wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >
> >> Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking 
through
> >> the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing
> >> PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what 
settings
> >> to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so 
on)...I'm
> >> assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?
> >
> >> Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?
> >
> >> --Kristina
> >
> >>> Hi Kristina
> >>>
> >>> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember 
having
> >> to do
> >>> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for
> >> WINDOWS
> >>> and PHP 5
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> <?php session_start; ob_start;
> >>>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
> >>>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
> >>>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
> >>>
> >>>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
> >>>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
> >>>
> >>>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
> >>>                         I can put anything I like here";
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
> >>>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
> >>>
> >>>    echo "The email has been sent";
> >>> ?>
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> >>> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
> >>> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Hi everyone --
> >>> >
> >>> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box
> >> (don't
> >>> > ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() 
function
> >> and
> >>> > the mail isn't cooperating.
> >>> >
> >>> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal 
Sendmail
> >>> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
> >>> >
> >>> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the 
mails,
> >> or
> >>> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get
> >> this
> >>> > to work?)
> >>> >
> >>> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
> >>> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on 
the
> >> site.
> >>> >
> >>> > Thanks for any help...
> >>> >
> >>> > --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the 
mail
> >> is
> >>> > not sending!)
> >>> >
> >> __________ NOD32 3053 (20080424) Information __________
> >
> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> >> http://www.eset.com
> >
> >
> > php.ini is probably in the WINDOWS folders or the equivalent on your
> > server as is my.ini as I remember.
> >
> > -- 
> > Best regards,
> > mikesz                            
mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Sat Apr 26 11:52:28 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:52:28 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
In-Reply-To: <1209222768.13985@coral.he.net>
References: <1209222768.13985@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <188355616.20080426235228@qualityadvantages.com>

Hello Kristina,

Saturday, April 26, 2008, 11:12:48 PM, you wrote:

> Yep the root directory is the way to go here...that's where I'm going 
> to try putting it.  Will keep everyone posted.

> --Kristina

>> My PHP.INI is sitting in the root directory. Search using "mail" and 
>> hopefully it will be of some help. It might be prudent before you 
> alter your 
>> PHP.INI to make a backup.
>> 
>> Paul
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <mikesz at qualityadvantages.com>
>> To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 8:30 AM
>> Subject: Re[2]: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows 
> server?
>> 
>> 
>> > Hello Kristina,
>> >
>> > Friday, April 25, 2008, 3:16:55 AM, you wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Paul,
>> >
>> >> Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking 
> through
>> >> the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing
>> >> PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what 
> settings
>> >> to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so 
> on)...I'm
>> >> assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?
>> >
>> >> Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?
>> >
>> >> --Kristina
>> >
>> >>> Hi Kristina
>> >>>
>> >>> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember 
> having
>> >> to do
>> >>> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for
>> >> WINDOWS
>> >>> and PHP 5
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> <?php session_start; ob_start;
>> >>>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
>> >>>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
>> >>>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
>> >>>
>> >>>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
>> >>>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
>> >>>
>> >>>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
>> >>>                         I can put anything I like here";
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
>> >>>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
>> >>>
>> >>>    echo "The email has been sent";
>> >>> ?>
>> >>>
>> >>> Paul
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >>> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
>> >>> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
>> >>> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> > Hi everyone --
>> >>> >
>> >>> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box
>> >> (don't
>> >>> > ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() 
> function
>> >> and
>> >>> > the mail isn't cooperating.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal 
> Sendmail
>> >>> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the 
> mails,
>> >> or
>> >>> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get
>> >> this
>> >>> > to work?)
>> >>> >
>> >>> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
>> >>> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on 
> the
>> >> site.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Thanks for any help...
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the 
> mail
>> >> is
>> >>> > not sending!)
>> >>> >
>> >> __________ NOD32 3053 (20080424) Information __________
>> >
>> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>> >> http://www.eset.com
>> >
>> >
>> > php.ini is probably in the WINDOWS folders or the equivalent on your
>> > server as is my.ini as I remember.
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > Best regards,
>> > mikesz                            
> mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>> 
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>> 
>> 

> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com

> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

> __________ NOD32 3056 (20080426) Information __________

> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com


http://techknowsis.beesquared.biz/2007/08/25/InstallingPHPOnWindowsVistaAndWindowsServer2003.aspx

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr 26 21:29:22 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:29:22 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
Message-ID: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>

Hi everyone,

Well, more weirdness.  I tested the code this afternoon and it actually 
worked on the Windows box -- twice -- sent the email upon initial page 
load and again when I reloaded the page.  But then completely stopped 
working.  This was before I had created the php.ini file, and the only 
two times it ever worked on the Windows box.

I then tested the same code on my domain server (a Linux/Apache setup) 
and it worked like clockwork, so it is most definitely NOT my code that 
is the issue (or stuff needs to be added to the code to work with 
Windows).

Pretty basic mail() code:
//===
$to = 'ka at kacomputerconsulting.com';
$subject = 'Completing your Registration';
$message = 'Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!
Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!
Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!
Hello there!Hello there!';
$headers = 'From: registration at clientdomain.com' . "\r\n";
$wmessage = wordwrap($message,70);
mail($to, "Subject: $subject", $wmessage, $headers);

//===


I then created a php.ini file and put the following in it:

SMTP = localhost
smtp_port = 25
sendmail_from = registration at clientdomain.com

and put this first in my local directory and then in the root 
directory; tested each time and still no dice, mail is not sending...

--Kristina


> Hello Kristina,
> 
> Friday, April 25, 2008, 3:16:55 AM, you wrote:
> 
> > Hi Paul,
> 
> > Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking 
through
> > the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing 
> > PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what 
settings
> > to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so 
on)...I'm 
> > assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?
> 
> > Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?
> 
> > --Kristina
> 
> >> Hi Kristina
> >> 
> >> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember 
having 
> > to do 
> >> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for 
> > WINDOWS 
> >> and PHP 5
> >> 
> >> 
> >> <?php session_start; ob_start;
> >>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
> >>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
> >>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
> >> 
> >>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
> >>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
> >> 
> >>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
> >>                         I can put anything I like here";
> >> 
> >> 
> >>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
> >>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
> >> 
> >>    echo "The email has been sent";
> >> ?>
> >> 
> >> Paul
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> >> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
> >> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > Hi everyone --
> >> >
> >> > My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
> > (don't
> >> > ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() 
function 
> > and
> >> > the mail isn't cooperating.
> >> >
> >> > (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal 
Sendmail
> >> > Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
> >> >
> >> > So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the 
mails, 
> > or
> >> > there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
> > this
> >> > to work?)
> >> >
> >> > It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
> >> > significant amount of automated emails to registered people on 
the 
> > site.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for any help...
> >> >
> >> > --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the 
mail 
> > is
> >> > not sending!)
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> >
> >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >> >
> >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> 
> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >> 
> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >> 
> >> 
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> > __________ NOD32 3053 (20080424) Information __________
> 
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> > http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> php.ini is probably in the WINDOWS folders or the equivalent on your
> server as is my.ini as I remember.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Sat Apr 26 22:14:23 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:14:23 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>
References: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <939473140.20080427101423@qualityadvantages.com>

Hello Kristina,


What about using the IP address instead of localhost?

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From anthony at thrillist.com  Sun Apr 27 10:23:37 2008
From: anthony at thrillist.com (Anthony)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:23:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>
References: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <48148C69.9030900@thrillist.com>

I am assuming you are one a Windows box with WAMP.  You must set your 
php.ini sendmail_path directive.

Example: | sendmail_path = "C:\wamp\sendmail\sendmail.exe -t"

That is assuming that you haven't done it already.  If you are not on a 
WAMP setup then point the directive to the right path.

-Anthony
|
Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Well, more weirdness.  I tested the code this afternoon and it actually 
> worked on the Windows box -- twice -- sent the email upon initial page 
> load and again when I reloaded the page.  But then completely stopped 
> working.  This was before I had created the php.ini file, and the only 
> two times it ever worked on the Windows box.
>
> I then tested the same code on my domain server (a Linux/Apache setup) 
> and it worked like clockwork, so it is most definitely NOT my code that 
> is the issue (or stuff needs to be added to the code to work with 
> Windows).
>
> Pretty basic mail() code:
> //===
> $to = 'ka at kacomputerconsulting.com';
> $subject = 'Completing your Registration';
> $message = 'Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!
> Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!
> Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!
> Hello there!Hello there!';
> $headers = 'From: registration at clientdomain.com' . "\r\n";
> $wmessage = wordwrap($message,70);
> mail($to, "Subject: $subject", $wmessage, $headers);
>
> //===
>
>
> I then created a php.ini file and put the following in it:
>
> SMTP = localhost
> smtp_port = 25
> sendmail_from = registration at clientdomain.com
>
> and put this first in my local directory and then in the root 
> directory; tested each time and still no dice, mail is not sending...
>
> --Kristina
>
>
>   
>> Hello Kristina,
>>
>> Friday, April 25, 2008, 3:16:55 AM, you wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>       
>>> Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking 
>>>       
> through
>   
>>> the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing 
>>> PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what 
>>>       
> settings
>   
>>> to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so 
>>>       
> on)...I'm 
>   
>>> assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?
>>>       
>>> Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?
>>>       
>>> --Kristina
>>>       
>>>> Hi Kristina
>>>>
>>>> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember 
>>>>         
> having 
>   
>>> to do 
>>>       
>>>> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for 
>>>>         
>>> WINDOWS 
>>>       
>>>> and PHP 5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <?php session_start; ob_start;
>>>>     ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
>>>>     ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
>>>>     ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
>>>>
>>>>    $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
>>>>    $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
>>>>
>>>>    $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
>>>>                         I can put anything I like here";
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
>>>>    mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
>>>>
>>>>    echo "The email has been sent";
>>>> ?>
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
>>>> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
>>>> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Hi everyone --
>>>>>
>>>>> My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box 
>>>>>           
>>> (don't
>>>       
>>>>> ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail() 
>>>>>           
> function 
>   
>>> and
>>>       
>>>>> the mail isn't cooperating.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal 
>>>>>           
> Sendmail
>   
>>>>> Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the 
>>>>>           
> mails, 
>   
>>> or
>>>       
>>>>> there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get 
>>>>>           
>>> this
>>>       
>>>>> to work?)
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
>>>>> significant amount of automated emails to registered people on 
>>>>>           
> the 
>   
>>> site.
>>>       
>>>>> Thanks for any help...
>>>>>
>>>>> --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the 
>>>>>           
> mail 
>   
>>> is
>>>       
>>>>> not sending!)
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php 
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>       
>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>       
>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>       
>>> __________ NOD32 3053 (20080424) Information __________
>>>       
>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>       
>> php.ini is probably in the WINDOWS folders or the equivalent on your
>> server as is my.ini as I remember.
>>
>> -- 
>> Best regards,
>>  mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   



From jorge at rhst.net  Mon Apr 28 12:43:22 2008
From: jorge at rhst.net (Jorge Lopez)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:43:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>
References: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <A38008AE-AC6E-4E15-9386-6C9433DBECD2@rhst.net>

Hello,

Do you have sendmail running on the linux box?  Is port 25 listening?

Can you send mail from the command line like:
 > mail user at example.org

-Jorge

On Apr 26, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Kristina Anderson wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Well, more weirdness.  I tested the code this afternoon and it  
> actually
> worked on the Windows box -- twice -- sent the email upon initial page
> load and again when I reloaded the page.  But then completely stopped
> working.  This was before I had created the php.ini file, and the only
> two times it ever worked on the Windows box.
>
> I then tested the same code on my domain server (a Linux/Apache setup)
> and it worked like clockwork, so it is most definitely NOT my code  
> that
> is the issue (or stuff needs to be added to the code to work with
> Windows).
>
> Pretty basic mail() code:
> //===
> $to = 'ka at kacomputerconsulting.com';
> $subject = 'Completing your Registration';
> $message = 'Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello  
> there!
> Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello  
> there!
> Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello there!Hello  
> there!
> Hello there!Hello there!';
> $headers = 'From: registration at clientdomain.com' . "\r\n";
> $wmessage = wordwrap($message,70);
> mail($to, "Subject: $subject", $wmessage, $headers);
>
> //===
>
>
> I then created a php.ini file and put the following in it:
>
> SMTP = localhost
> smtp_port = 25
> sendmail_from = registration at clientdomain.com
>
> and put this first in my local directory and then in the root
> directory; tested each time and still no dice, mail is not sending...
>
> --Kristina
>
>
>> Hello Kristina,
>>
>> Friday, April 25, 2008, 3:16:55 AM, you wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Paul,
>>
>>> Thanks.  We are on PHP 4.x and Windows 2003 server and looking
> through
>>> the directories through FTP, there doesn't appear to be an existing
>>> PHP.INI file...the tech support is directing my client in what
> settings
>>> to configure in PHP.INI (Port 25 and STMP=localhost and so
> on)...I'm
>>> assuming for PHP 4.x I have to create this PHP.INI file?
>>
>>> Is it worth trying the below on a 4.x platform?
>>
>>> --Kristina
>>
>>>> Hi Kristina
>>>>
>>>> I was wrestling with this problem a few months ago, I remember
> having
>>> to do
>>>> some fiddling with the PHP.INI. Anyway the coding below works for
>>> WINDOWS
>>>> and PHP 5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <?php session_start; ob_start;
>>>>    ini_set("SMTP", "smtp.isp.com");
>>>>    ini_set("smtp_port", "25");
>>>>    ini_set("sendmail_from", admin at isp.com);
>>>>
>>>>   $to  = "johndoe at hotmail.com";
>>>>   $subject  = "Enter your subject here";
>>>>
>>>>   $message = "YES IT WORKED @ LONG LAST
>>>>                        I can put anything I like here";
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   $from  = "FROM: admin at isp.com ";
>>>>   mail("$to", "$subject", "$message", "$from");
>>>>
>>>>   echo "The email has been sent";
>>>> ?>
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
>>>> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:28 AM
>>>> Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi everyone --
>>>>>
>>>>> My current client's app is a PHP 4 site running on a Windows box
>>> (don't
>>>>> ask...I have no idea why).  I'm trying to use the mail()
> function
>>> and
>>>>> the mail isn't cooperating.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Two things that I noticed in phpinfo() are that Internal
> Sendmail
>>>>> Support for Windows is enabled and the Zend engine is installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So maybe I could/should be using another method to send the
> mails,
>>> or
>>>>> there is a trick that I'm not aware of that I need to use to get
>>> this
>>>>> to work?)
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not necessarily super high volume but we will be sending a
>>>>> significant amount of automated emails to registered people on
> the
>>> site.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for any help...
>>>>>
>>>>> --Kristina  (completely Uncertified in PHP and Unsure why the
> mail
>>> is
>>>>> not sending!)
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>> __________ NOD32 3053 (20080424) Information __________
>>
>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> php.ini is probably in the WINDOWS folders or the equivalent on your
>> server as is my.ini as I remember.
>>
>> -- 
>> Best regards,
>> mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> N



From tgales at tgaconnect.com  Mon Apr 28 13:08:53 2008
From: tgales at tgaconnect.com (Tim Gales)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:08:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>
References: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <481604A5.3070009@tgaconnect.com>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Well, more weirdness.  I tested the code this afternoon and it actually 
> worked on the Windows box -- twice -- sent the email upon initial page 
> load and again when I reloaded the page.  But then completely stopped 
> working.  This was before I had created the php.ini file, and the only 
> two times it ever worked on the Windows box.
>   
Make sure the SMTP service is running on the Windows box,
If its not -- check the System Event log for errors.

Maybe the way the mail server is being called (from PHP)
is causing it to die.

-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com



From tgales at tgaconnect.com  Mon Apr 28 13:31:44 2008
From: tgales at tgaconnect.com (Tim Gales)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:31:44 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <481604A5.3070009@tgaconnect.com>
References: <1209259762.11052@coral.he.net> <481604A5.3070009@tgaconnect.com>
Message-ID: <48160A00.3040809@tgaconnect.com>

Tim Gales wrote:
> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Well, more weirdness.  I tested the code this afternoon and it 
>> actually worked on the Windows box -- twice -- sent the email upon 
>> initial page load and again when I reloaded the page.  But then 
>> completely stopped working.  This was before I had created the 
>> php.ini file, and the only two times it ever worked on the Windows box.
>>   
> Make sure the SMTP service is running on the Windows box,
> If its not -- check the System Event log for errors.
>
> Maybe the way the mail server is being called (from PHP)
> is causing it to die.
>
What I mean is stuff like this can happen:

*[2 Sep 2003 10:54am UTC] ap at d-dt dot de*

Yes, sometimes it also crashed with my code when I'd used
it via the command-line (php.exe, the cli-Version does not
always produces the crash), but it worked with php_mod.

I think it depends whether I have a null-messagebody or
null-Subject. (There were some situations where it crashes
and the "null-situation" was at least one of them)

http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=25333

-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Apr 28 13:57:52 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:57:52 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
Message-ID: <1209405472.4906@coral.he.net>

Hi Tim, in addition to the erratic email sending, the debug messages on 
Windows for PHP really are, well, non existent.  We don't have access 
to the process log on the box, either.  I'm not sure what caused the 
sending to be erratic, we have subjects and large message body on each 
email.

Yesterday, on advice of tech support, we moved the modified php.ini 
file with actual URL instead of "localhost" as SMTP parameter, and 
placed it in the cgi-bin folder instead of the root.  We had some 
success sending test mails but when we tested the actual code in the 
app, it was failing again.  I tested the same code, only passing in 
hardcoded strings in place of the querystring values, on my domain 
server, a Linux box, and it was perfectly fine.  

The only thing I could think of was that there might be white space 
around strings passed from the querystring parameters into the email 
code...so I used trim() around them...still no luck.  

I give up.  We have put in a request to be switched to a Linux box!!

> Tim Gales wrote:
> > Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >> Hi everyone,
> >>
> >> Well, more weirdness.  I tested the code this afternoon and it 
> >> actually worked on the Windows box -- twice -- sent the email upon 
> >> initial page load and again when I reloaded the page.  But then 
> >> completely stopped working.  This was before I had created the 
> >> php.ini file, and the only two times it ever worked on the Windows 
box.
> >>   
> > Make sure the SMTP service is running on the Windows box,
> > If its not -- check the System Event log for errors.
> >
> > Maybe the way the mail server is being called (from PHP)
> > is causing it to die.
> >
> What I mean is stuff like this can happen:
> 
> *[2 Sep 2003 10:54am UTC] ap at d-dt dot de*
> 
> Yes, sometimes it also crashed with my code when I'd used
> it via the command-line (php.exe, the cli-Version does not
> always produces the crash), but it worked with php_mod.
> 
> I think it depends whether I have a null-messagebody or
> null-Subject. (There were some situations where it crashes
> and the "null-situation" was at least one of them)
> 
> http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=25333
> 
> -- 
> 
> T. Gales & Associates
> 'Helping People Connect with Technology'
> 
> http://www.tgaconnect.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 





From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Apr 28 14:00:33 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:00:33 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
Message-ID: <1209405633.5803@coral.he.net>

Tim -- I am going to bring this issue up with the tech support people 
over there...and see what they say.  It does seem erratic and a lot of 
potential for failure due to various reasons...which is not what we 
need...we have a ton of emails which will be automatically going out 
for various reasons and need 100% reliability.



> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Well, more weirdness.  I tested the code this afternoon and it 
actually 
> > worked on the Windows box -- twice -- sent the email upon initial 
page 
> > load and again when I reloaded the page.  But then completely 
stopped 
> > working.  This was before I had created the php.ini file, and the 
only 
> > two times it ever worked on the Windows box.
> >   
> Make sure the SMTP service is running on the Windows box,
> If its not -- check the System Event log for errors.
> 
> Maybe the way the mail server is being called (from PHP)
> is causing it to die.
> 
> -- 
> 
> T. Gales & Associates
> 'Helping People Connect with Technology'
> 
> http://www.tgaconnect.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 



From tgales at tgaconnect.com  Mon Apr 28 14:17:32 2008
From: tgales at tgaconnect.com (Tim Gales)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:17:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <1209405633.5803@coral.he.net>
References: <1209405633.5803@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <481614BC.3070306@tgaconnect.com>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Tim -- I am going to bring this issue up with the tech support people 
> over there...and see what they say.  It does seem erratic and a lot of 
> potential for failure due to various reasons...which is not what we 
> need...we have a ton of emails which will be automatically going out 
> for various reasons and need 100% reliability.
>
>   
What I meant to imply is that you should check the bug logs
http://bugs.php.net/  to see if you have a known problem
>> ttp://www.tgaconnect.com
>>     
> *[2 Sep 2003 10:54am UTC] ap at d-dt dot de*
>
> Yes, sometimes it also crashed...
-- 

T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'

http://www.tgaconnect.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Apr 28 14:27:43 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:27:43 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
Message-ID: <1209407263.18734@coral.he.net>

I'm sure I've got more than one known problem :)

I'm just leery of the whole Windows/PHP thing now.

> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Tim -- I am going to bring this issue up with the tech support 
people 
> > over there...and see what they say.  It does seem erratic and a lot 
of 
> > potential for failure due to various reasons...which is not what we 
> > need...we have a ton of emails which will be automatically going 
out 
> > for various reasons and need 100% reliability.
> >
> >   
> What I meant to imply is that you should check the bug logs
> http://bugs.php.net/  to see if you have a known problem
> >> ttp://www.tgaconnect.com
> >>     
> > *[2 Sep 2003 10:54am UTC] ap at d-dt dot de*
> >
> > Yes, sometimes it also crashed...
> -- 
> 
> T. Gales & Associates
> 'Helping People Connect with Technology'
> 
> http://www.tgaconnect.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 
\


From anthony at thrillist.com  Mon Apr 28 14:34:24 2008
From: anthony at thrillist.com (anthony wlodarski)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:34:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <1209407263.18734@coral.he.net>
References: <1209407263.18734@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <481618B0.1070903@thrillist.com>

LAMP environments, you're not missing much... :)

-- 
Anthony Wlodarski
PHP/MySQL Developer
www.thrillist.com
560 Broadway, Suite 308
New York, NY 10012
p 646.274.2435
f 646.557.0803



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Apr 28 16:04:40 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:04:40 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
Message-ID: <1209413080.24227@coral.he.net>

Hi Anthony -- well, we've definitely made the decision to switch from 
WAMP to LAMP.  There are definitely plusses and minuses on each side, 
for sure.  Thank heavens, since this is an externally hosted site, I 
don't need to be a Linux genius (now THAT would be an issue)!  All of 
my previous experience developing PHP apps was with LAMP.  So this has 
been a learning experience for me.

The issues I found with WAMP are:

-- poor understanding on the part of sys admins of where the modified 
php.ini file should live, and why, and how it affects various functions 
of PHP.  Consequently a huge testing cycle and anxiety about future 
issues that might arise with new code.

-- Non existent debug messages (i.e. blank white screens rather than 
semi helpful line number messages)...although that could have been a 
setting that we neglected to unearth & configure.

-- Completely erratic performance with the mail() function and since 
this is a critical part of our app (13 different emails going out 
either after site visits or at various timed intervals to hopefully a 
ton of people who register), this was a huge concern for me; and

-- weird issues with the $_FILES array behavior and more fun trying to 
get php.ini to work right for that.

So maybe I'm just a wimp but back to LAMP I go.  I figure I've got 
enough headaches just trying to roll out the app and make sure it's 
working right without all of the above.

--Kristina


> LAMP environments, you're not missing much... :)
> 
> -- 
> Anthony Wlodarski
> PHP/MySQL Developer
> www.thrillist.com
> 560 Broadway, Suite 308
> New York, NY 10012
> p 646.274.2435
> f 646.557.0803
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




From anthony at thrillist.com  Mon Apr 28 16:15:31 2008
From: anthony at thrillist.com (anthony wlodarski)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:15:31 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <1209413080.24227@coral.he.net>
References: <1209413080.24227@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <48163063.1000502@thrillist.com>

In regards to the error reporting on a debug machine I like to have the 
php.ini warning set to all.  At runtime you can do it bye this function:

error_reporting(E_ALL);

Hope that helps.


-- 
Anthony Wlodarski
PHP/MySQL Developer
www.thrillist.com
560 Broadway, Suite 308
New York, NY 10012
p 646.274.2435
f 646.557.0803



From ashaw at polymerdb.org  Tue Apr 29 13:58:13 2008
From: ashaw at polymerdb.org (Allen Shaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:58:13 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] rounding time values to the nearest hour
Message-ID: <481761B5.20504@polymerdb.org>

Hi Gang,

Anyone have a handy way to round time values to the nearest hour? 

I've got time values stored in the database (MySQL) and often need to 
group them by the hour (e.g., times between 09:30 and 10:29 get grouped 
under 10:00).  Up to now I've been splitting on the colon and figuring 
it out based on the separate hour and minute values, but I thought there 
might be a better way...

Thanks,
Allen

-- 
Allen Shaw
slidePresenter (http://slides.sourceforge.net)



From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 29 14:15:22 2008
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:15:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] rounding time values to the nearest hour
In-Reply-To: <481761B5.20504@polymerdb.org>
References: <481761B5.20504@polymerdb.org>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40804291115qeea1c2cq3371138cf7c2b029@mail.gmail.com>

round(seconds / 3600)
e.g.

ROUND(TIME_TO_SEC('00:39:38')/3600) ;

-John C.


On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Allen Shaw <ashaw at polymerdb.org> wrote:
> Hi Gang,
>
>  Anyone have a handy way to round time values to the nearest hour?
>  I've got time values stored in the database (MySQL) and often need to group
> them by the hour (e.g., times between 09:30 and 10:29 get grouped under
> 10:00).  Up to now I've been splitting on the colon and figuring it out
> based on the separate hour and minute values, but I thought there might be a
> better way...
>
>  Thanks,
>  Allen
>
>  --
>  Allen Shaw
>  slidePresenter (http://slides.sourceforge.net)
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From brenttech at gmail.com  Tue Apr 29 14:26:30 2008
From: brenttech at gmail.com (Brent Baisley)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:26:30 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] rounding time values to the nearest hour
In-Reply-To: <481761B5.20504@polymerdb.org>
References: <481761B5.20504@polymerdb.org>
Message-ID: <5d515c620804291126o738a22d3v65e849036c0223d@mail.gmail.com>

First, you need to convert it to a number, like minutes or seconds.
Then to round any number to any arbitrary interval, you can use this
formula:

round(num/interval)*interval

In your case the interval would be 60, but you would need to multiply
the end result by 60 (minutes) or 3600 (seconds) again to convert it
back to hours.

Brent Baisley
Systems Architect

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Allen Shaw <ashaw at polymerdb.org> wrote:
> Hi Gang,
>
>  Anyone have a handy way to round time values to the nearest hour?
>  I've got time values stored in the database (MySQL) and often need to group
> them by the hour (e.g., times between 09:30 and 10:29 get grouped under
> 10:00).  Up to now I've been splitting on the colon and figuring it out
> based on the separate hour and minute values, but I thought there might be a
> better way...
>
>  Thanks,
>  Allen
>
>  --
>  Allen Shaw
>  slidePresenter (http://slides.sourceforge.net)
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From mikesz at qualityadvantages.com  Tue Apr 29 23:40:11 2008
From: mikesz at qualityadvantages.com (mikesz at qualityadvantages.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:40:11 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server - update
In-Reply-To: <1209413080.24227@coral.he.net>
References: <1209413080.24227@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1254034422.20080430114011@qualityadvantages.com>

Hello Kristina,

Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 4:04:40 AM, you wrote:

> Hi Anthony -- well, we've definitely made the decision to switch from 
> WAMP to LAMP.  There are definitely plusses and minuses on each side, 
> for sure.  Thank heavens, since this is an externally hosted site, I 
> don't need to be a Linux genius (now THAT would be an issue)!  All of 
> my previous experience developing PHP apps was with LAMP.  So this has
> been a learning experience for me.

> The issues I found with WAMP are:

> -- poor understanding on the part of sys admins of where the modified 
> php.ini file should live, and why, and how it affects various functions
> of PHP.  Consequently a huge testing cycle and anxiety about future 
> issues that might arise with new code.

> -- Non existent debug messages (i.e. blank white screens rather than 
> semi helpful line number messages)...although that could have been a 
> setting that we neglected to unearth & configure.

> -- Completely erratic performance with the mail() function and since 
> this is a critical part of our app (13 different emails going out 
> either after site visits or at various timed intervals to hopefully a 
> ton of people who register), this was a huge concern for me; and

> -- weird issues with the $_FILES array behavior and more fun trying to
> get php.ini to work right for that.

> So maybe I'm just a wimp but back to LAMP I go.  I figure I've got 
> enough headaches just trying to roll out the app and make sure it's 
> working right without all of the above.

> --Kristina


>> LAMP environments, you're not missing much... :)
>> 
>> -- 
>> Anthony Wlodarski
>> PHP/MySQL Developer
>> www.thrillist.com
>> 560 Broadway, Suite 308
>> New York, NY 10012
>> p 646.274.2435
>> f 646.557.0803
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>> 
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>> 
>> 


> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com

> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

> __________ NOD32 3061 (20080428) Information __________

> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com


Are you / were you using WAMP5? some other WAMP package?

I have been running WAMP5 on my XP Windows box for a long time and the
differences are not that great between it and my LAMP Hosting site (at
least for my development work, I do development stuff on XP, transfer
it to my Linux server and it just works, maybe other stuff that I don't care
about is different?), though the php.ini in WAMP5 is located in the
Apache/bin folder as are many of the PHP dlls ( I has a huge RTFM
issue with that one when I first installed it) folder which is significantly
different from other WAMP packages I have run.

-- 
Best regards,
 mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 30 08:06:24 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:06:24 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP mail function on Windows server -
	update
Message-ID: <1209557184.3935@coral.he.net>

Hi Mike,

To be honest I'm not even sure what version it was.  There was a 
php.ini file for the entire PHP installation, and then we needed a 
second php.ini file for our particular domain app, which they had first 
told us to place in the root and then changed their mind and said place 
in the cgi-bin folder.  I have a feeling that some or all of the below 
issues could have been due to a poor understanding on the part of sys 
admins as to the proper configuration of the environment.

The sys admin stuff is definitely not my strength...I was pretty 
proficient in IIS back in the day but this stuff is totally outside my 
experience.  So I just felt, let's switch back to something that I know 
works.

-- Kristina  

> Hello Kristina,
> 
> Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 4:04:40 AM, you wrote:
> 
> > Hi Anthony -- well, we've definitely made the decision to switch 
from 
> > WAMP to LAMP.  There are definitely plusses and minuses on each 
side, 
> > for sure.  Thank heavens, since this is an externally hosted site, 
I 
> > don't need to be a Linux genius (now THAT would be an issue)!  All 
of 
> > my previous experience developing PHP apps was with LAMP.  So this 
has
> > been a learning experience for me.
> 
> > The issues I found with WAMP are:
> 
> > -- poor understanding on the part of sys admins of where the 
modified 
> > php.ini file should live, and why, and how it affects various 
functions
> > of PHP.  Consequently a huge testing cycle and anxiety about future 
> > issues that might arise with new code.
> 
> > -- Non existent debug messages (i.e. blank white screens rather 
than 
> > semi helpful line number messages)...although that could have been 
a 
> > setting that we neglected to unearth & configure.
> 
> > -- Completely erratic performance with the mail() function and 
since 
> > this is a critical part of our app (13 different emails going out 
> > either after site visits or at various timed intervals to hopefully 
a 
> > ton of people who register), this was a huge concern for me; and
> 
> > -- weird issues with the $_FILES array behavior and more fun trying 
to
> > get php.ini to work right for that.
> 
> > So maybe I'm just a wimp but back to LAMP I go.  I figure I've got 
> > enough headaches just trying to roll out the app and make sure it's 
> > working right without all of the above.
> 
> > --Kristina
> 
> 
> >> LAMP environments, you're not missing much... :)
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Anthony Wlodarski
> >> PHP/MySQL Developer
> >> www.thrillist.com
> >> 560 Broadway, Suite 308
> >> New York, NY 10012
> >> p 646.274.2435
> >> f 646.557.0803
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> 
> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >> 
> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >> 
> >> 
> 
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> > __________ NOD32 3061 (20080428) Information __________
> 
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> > http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> Are you / were you using WAMP5? some other WAMP package?
> 
> I have been running WAMP5 on my XP Windows box for a long time and the
> differences are not that great between it and my LAMP Hosting site (at
> least for my development work, I do development stuff on XP, transfer
> it to my Linux server and it just works, maybe other stuff that I 
don't care
> about is different?), though the php.ini in WAMP5 is located in the
> Apache/bin folder as are many of the PHP dlls ( I has a huge RTFM
> issue with that one when I first installed it) folder which is 
significantly
> different from other WAMP packages I have run.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  mikesz                            mailto:mikesz at qualityadvantages.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 



From tonmere at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 12:17:36 2008
From: tonmere at gmail.com (A A)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:17:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] NYC web dev courses?
Message-ID: <212cb60f0804300917h43e2be45icc9c1549626bcc1b@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Everyone
I'm a junior web dev and I'm starting to slow down my groove in being
self-taught. I'd be really grateful if anyone could lead me towards valuable
courses or training programs here in NYC... Mainly about PHP, MySQL, maybe
even mobile web dev, new platforms. I always have tons of questions while
teaching myself and then spend a great portion of the day looking for
answers when there could be a teacher there to answer them. I could get so
much more done and packed in the cranium if I could just find a course!

Thanks everyone!
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From ashaw at polymerdb.org  Wed Apr 30 12:33:34 2008
From: ashaw at polymerdb.org (Allen Shaw)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:33:34 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] rounding time values to the nearest hour
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40804291115qeea1c2cq3371138cf7c2b029@mail.gmail.com>
References: <481761B5.20504@polymerdb.org>
	<8f0676b40804291115qeea1c2cq3371138cf7c2b029@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48189F5E.80703@polymerdb.org>

John Campbell wrote:
> round(seconds / 3600)
> e.g.
>
> ROUND(TIME_TO_SEC('00:39:38')/3600) ;
Should have thought of converting to seconds... doh!  Thanks John and 
Brent. 

- A.

-- 
Allen Shaw
slidePresenter (http://slides.sourceforge.net)



From anthony at thrillist.com  Wed Apr 30 12:36:47 2008
From: anthony at thrillist.com (anthony wlodarski)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:36:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] NYC web dev courses?
In-Reply-To: <212cb60f0804300917h43e2be45icc9c1549626bcc1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <212cb60f0804300917h43e2be45icc9c1549626bcc1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4818A01F.6030500@thrillist.com>

If you sign up for the MySQL newsletter/email they usually have training 
sessions going on but they have a cost associated with them.  If you 
write on this list individuals can guide you in the right direction but 
for a personal session check out NYU and their listings.  They might 
have a course for PHP (which means enrolling and then paying).

Haven't checked in a while.

-- 
Anthony Wlodarski
PHP/MySQL Developer
www.thrillist.com
560 Broadway, Suite 308
New York, NY 10012
p 646.274.2435
f 646.557.0803


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 21:39:00 2008
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:39:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] NYC web dev courses?
In-Reply-To: <4818A01F.6030500@thrillist.com>
References: <212cb60f0804300917h43e2be45icc9c1549626bcc1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4818A01F.6030500@thrillist.com>
Message-ID: <c5949a380804301839l630595f9kea2e4e1cc368128@mail.gmail.com>

I've been a php person for close to 10 years. These days I find myself
slowly playing more and more with Ruby. PHP is great of course, pays
my rent, but Ruby seems to be luring me in.  Just fun learning
something new.

It's aways good to have a few programming languages under your belt.
Also the jQuery/CSS combo is really exploding these days, you can do
some amazing things in that space.

Some Ruby (and other cool books here):
http://www.pragprog.com/titles

And if you want to have lots of fun, start diving into the Google API.
Mashing up maps with myql is a great place to turn out some cool
applications.

:-)  ed


On 4/30/08, anthony wlodarski <anthony at thrillist.com> wrote:
> If you sign up for the MySQL newsletter/email they usually have training
> sessions going on but they have a cost associated with them.  If you write
> on this list individuals can guide you in the right direction but for a
> personal session check out NYU and their listings.  They might have a course
> for PHP (which means enrolling and then paying).
>
>  Haven't checked in a while.
>
>  --
>  Anthony Wlodarski
>  PHP/MySQL Developer
>  www.thrillist.com
>  560 Broadway, Suite 308
>  New York, NY 10012
>  p 646.274.2435
>  f 646.557.0803
>  _______________________________________________
>  New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
>  http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>  NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>  http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>  Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>  http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Blog: http://www.preceptress.com
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
Projects: http://flickr.com/photos/86842405 at N00/
Store: http://astore.amazon.com/httpwwwutopic-20


From michael.southwell at nyphp.com  Wed Apr 30 22:39:09 2008
From: michael.southwell at nyphp.com (Michael Southwell)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:39:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] NYC web dev courses?
In-Reply-To: <212cb60f0804300917h43e2be45icc9c1549626bcc1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <212cb60f0804300917h43e2be45icc9c1549626bcc1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48192D4D.30603@nyphp.com>

A A wrote:
> I'm a junior web dev and I'm starting to slow down my groove in being 
> self-taught. I'd be really grateful if anyone could lead me towards 
> valuable courses or training programs here in NYC... Mainly about PHP, 
> MySQL, maybe even mobile web dev, new platforms. I always have tons of 
> questions while teaching myself and then spend a great portion of the 
> day looking for answers when there could be a teacher there to answer 
> them. I could get so much more done and packed in the cranium if I could 
> just find a course!

try http://nyphp.com/Training/Indepth

-- 
=================
Michael Southwell
Vice President, Education
NYPHP TRAINING:  http://nyphp.com/Training/Indepth


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Apr 30 23:00:21 2008
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:00:21 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] NYC web dev courses?
Message-ID: <1209610821.19747@coral.he.net>

Rather than paying someone to teach you, I've found that taking on new 
projects where THEY pay YOU, is the best way of learning new things.  
No option to procrastinate or make excuses or take time to dilly dally 
playing with things that aren't relevant...you need to stay sharp and 
think on your feet, and do what you need to do to solve the problems 
and surmount the learning curve.  You've got to deliver to the client 
what you are being paid to deliver, and deliver you will or go down 
trying.

I can remember 10+ years ago when I first started out, for sure I 
talked myself into a few situations that were way over my head...but 
learned from the failures.  Now I always look to expose myself to new 
stuff whenever possible, and just accepted a gig where I will be 
exposed to OO PHP 5 (rather than 4.x) and Drupal for the first time, 
and in a high pressure environment.

So my advice is don't waste time enrolling in courses and courses and 
becoming a professional programming student...jump into the fray and 
find someone to hire you to solve their business problems by writing 
code...the best way to learn.  If you are starting to get bored mucking 
around with textbooks and sample code, there's a good reason why and 
that is that you are probably ready to take a paying job.  If you're 
already taking paying jobs but are unsure if you will be considered for 
the next level and don't apply, APPLY!  You'll be surprised perhaps 
what you will be hired to do.  Look for projects that will teach you 
the things you want to learn!

Please know that you can rely on these good people here on this list to 
help you with any questions you may run into during your work, and good 
luck!

-- Kristina

> A A wrote:
> > I'm a junior web dev and I'm starting to slow down my groove in 
being 
> > self-taught. I'd be really grateful if anyone could lead me towards 
> > valuable courses or training programs here in NYC... Mainly about 
PHP, 
> > MySQL, maybe even mobile web dev, new platforms. I always have tons 
of 
> > questions while teaching myself and then spend a great portion of 
the 
> > day looking for answers when there could be a teacher there to 
answer 
> > them. I could get so much more done and packed in the cranium if I 
could 
> > just find a course!
> 
> try http://nyphp.com/Training/Indepth
> 
> -- 
> =================
> Michael Southwell
> Vice President, Education
> NYPHP TRAINING:  http://nyphp.com/Training/Indepth
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
> 
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
>